If We Survive the Night: Jo Salazar's Sourcebooks Relaunch (with Surprise Guests Sarah Lyons Fleming & Kate L. Mary) | Zombie Book Club Ep 162

Jo Salazar is back to celebrate the biggest twist in her writing career: her self-published zombie novel The Dead Weight has been acquired by Sourcebooks Fire and relaunches as If We Survive the Night on August 25th. We talk through the wild, one-DM-at-a-time path from indie hustle to a traditional book deal, what changes (and doesn't) when a title and cover get a makeover, and why a title matters when a reader is deciding in seconds. Jo also opens up about building an audience through TikTok and Amazon ads, the realities of author marketing even after landing a publisher, and the Walmart special edition bonus chapter that finally answers fans' burning 'riverboat casino' question.

Then we surprise Jo with two of her biggest inspirations in the genre: Kate L. Mary and Sarah Lyons Fleming. The three dig into mentorship, community, and what it's like to write through anxiety and real-world horror without losing the joy of storytelling. They also talk candidly about how women have reshaped zombie fiction away from the lone-wolf (mighty-whitey) power fantasy and toward stories built on relationships, found family, and emotional stakes. It's part reunion, part masterclass, and part long-overdue celebration of an author who earned every bit of this moment.


Guest Contact & Social Links

Jo Salazar

• Website: https://www.josalazarwriting.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_jo_salazar_/
• Linktree (all links): https://linktr.ee/josalazarauthor

Kate L. Mary

• Website: https://katelmary.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zombieauthormom/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KateLMaryauthor
• BookBub: https://www.bookbub.com/profile/kate-l-mary

Sarah Lyons Fleming

• Website: https://www.sarahlyonsfleming.com/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SarahLyonsFleming/
• Amazon storefront: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Sarah-Lyons-Fleming

Other links referenced in the episode:

• Publisher
  • Sourcebooks Fire: https://www.sourcebooks.com
• Our Town Books (Jacksonville, IL — release party host / signed preorders)
  • Website: https://www.ourtownbooks.com/
  • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ourtownbooks/
  • Bookshop.org storefront: https://bookshop.org/shop/ourtownbooks

Transcript

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Welcome Back To Emmy Book Club

SPEAKER_00 0:19

What is the Emmy Book Club, the only book club where we celebrate the re-release of one of our favorite books with one of our best friends? I'm Dan, and when I'm not partying hard, I'm sending my book, The Bad Road, off to the editor, hoping she won't rip my guts out. She won't. And I'm Leah. No, you will not. She's brutal.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Today we have Bach on the show if you haven't guessed it already, one of our absolute favorite humans and zombie authors, Joe Salazar. Jo grew up in the river bottoms of west central Illinois, and today she lives with her awesome husband, Uli, and our dog goddaughter, Data. We first met Jo in the summer of 2024 when she was promoting the indie release of her zombie novel, The Dead Weight. This is Jo's fifth episode with us on Zombie Book Club. And more importantly, somewhere along the way, she became a very special and dear friend of ours, who unfortunately lives too far away. Fast forward to today, and The Dead Weight and its sequel are now acquired by Source Books Fire, right? The first book is re-releasing on re-releasing is a hard word to say. The first book is releasing on August 25th with a new title and cover if we survive the night, which is pretty rad, if I may say. Welcome back, friend. We're so happy to have you back on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Thank you so much for having me back. I have been looking forward to this for weeks. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, we've been looking forward to another Joe episode probably since the last episode ended, and we stopped, we hit the stop record button. It's like, well, let's just do another one. Um, but we can't you only have so many books to release. At least we have our group chat though. I was gonna say that's what signal chat is for. Exactly. Yeah. And you know what? Like, uh the I feel like this re-release is just so that we can talk to you more about the books that you've written.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I did it just for you, just so we could re-play our first, you know, our first date together. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

I mean, it does live rent-free in my head. Quinn is forever there. What would Quinn do?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

What would Quinn do? You're about to find out.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah, I guess if I guess if you haven't read the books, you need to find out what Quinn would do.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

But before we get into that, I think we have to start way back at the beginning. When we

Choosing Zombies Over A 9 To 5

SPEAKER_04 2:32

first had you on the show in August 2024, so two years ago, you told us that you would choose a zombie apocalypse over a 40-hour work week. Now you're a full-time author. What would you choose? Also the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Forever. I mean, I I have to. I I I think about it too. I mean, I wouldn't I would want to be alive in the zombie apocalypse. Like I don't want to die in a zombie apocalypse, but as long as I can like survive and thrive, I I want it. That reset button is just too tempting.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah. I mean, we've we've seen your survival uh haul. I don't know what you would call it. The closet, the survival closet.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I did give you that tour of my survival closet, didn't I?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

And um, I mean, it would be a shame for all that to go to waste if there's no zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

That's what I think.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

It would be devastating. I think the other question though, then is would you be an author in the zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

May well, I guess there's no Microsoft Word in the apocalypse.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I mean, it it still exists.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

There could be.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

There's typewriters.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

I use Google Drive, so I'm screwed. There's you could just tell people. Can you imagine telling people about Quinn around a fire?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

I can. I'm not a great oral storyteller. I know that about myself. I jump around from the like in and out of the timeline, and I have a million asides. Like I need that consistency of like getting to point A to point B on a page. But um I think I would probably still find a way to tell stories in the zombie apocalypse. I can imagine myself doing other things too. Don't ask me what. I'm not sure. But I you know, actually, you know what I would really want to do? I have been watching these videos on TikTok of people building forts in the woods. And I've decided that this is like my retirement plan.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Like bushcraft videos where like they have like their little fold-out saw that looks like a pocket knife, but it's huge. And then they saw down some like saplings, and then before you know it, they've built a log cabin that's like also got a basement that has a secret door. It's deeply satisfying to watch.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

And they make it look so easy that I'm fully convinced I could do this and be successful in like an afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

So yeah, a little bit of a of a sidebar. We're gonna be doing this for somebody who's about seven inches tall. We're building him a cabin. Um and uh he it's gonna be it's gonna be pretty swank. His name's Lil D.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I I think I saw maybe hints of this in a group chat.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I might have been.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I was like, what are you doing? And he just wouldn't answer me.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I would have might have been building a road. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

See, Joe, if you move to Vermont, you could build tiny cabins for seven-inch tall little D's.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, and in Vermont that pays a lot. It does? Oh, yeah. People will pay top dollar for a tiny cabin. We've already established though that we don't want the job, we want the apocalypse. Yeah, we want the apocalypse. True, true, true.

If We Survive The Night Premise

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um, so the dead weight, it's coming back with a new title. If we survive the night. Um correct. But the story and the characters are the same. Thank God. Yeah, that hasn't changed, uh, except for one version that has an extra chapter. Um, but for anyone who hasn't hasn't heard those episodes, like they're new here. It's somebody's first episode. Somehow they haven't read these books. Yeah. Uh, can you tell them what your book is about?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yes. If we survive the night is a book about 12 troubled teenage girls who are living in a locked juvenile treatment center when the zombie apocalypse hits.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

And y'all, it is everything goes fine. Everything goes well. I'm trying not to be I sorry, I don't know where I was like, I try not to say that you're my favorite author alive. It is one of the most game-changing zombie books I've ever read. Uh, it made me fall back in love with the genre all over again. Quinn is a character that is unforgettable, hence why I say, What would Quinn do? Um, although the other 11 equally wonderful and interesting characters, they just might not who's dead weight? I don't know. Somebody is dead weight, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

I think they all make it. Yes. Yeah. It's everything turns out fine.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Nobody has any problems. No, it's like a combination of a thriller, zombie, apocalypse. Um, and you often comp it with uh yellow jackets.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I do, yeah. I think that's a good comp. It's uh, you know, girls in the woods, um, you know, who can we trust kind of a vibe, which I think matches really well with with yellow jackets.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Except completely different. So you gotta set aside your expectations when you read this book series. And in actual fact, so you had uh Indy published two books, The Dead Weight and The Dead Rate Resistance. This first one's coming back out as if we survive the night, August 25th is its release. But you've already written books two and three. What can you tell us about that journey beyond? Like what can people look forward to as they are able to see the full trajectory of Quinn's story?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yes. Okay. So in in book one, we get a little bit of an origin story and just kind of learn about Quinn and who she is and what she's about, um, what she cares about, who she loves, what she's willing to do to survive. And I think in in book two, we learn a little bit about the the thing, like, oh, this is a tough question. I think we learn a little bit more about who she wants to become. Um, she really struggles with two sides of herself. And we we are kind of taken on this journey of like who who she really feels like she's meant to be. And in book three, I think, oh, it's so hard to not give away um the the ending here.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

And I really I want you to because I'm curious, but I'll wait.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Secretly, I'm dying to tell you everything. Like, I I want to tell somebody about this book because there's only one human on earth who's read it, and that is my agent Renee. Wow, and what a lucky human secret. She's lovely. Um, but she's the only one who's read it. So I mean, I think in in book three, we can expect self-actualization with with Quinn, whatever that might look like for her in her context. Is that vague enough? Is that too vague? I don't know what else to say.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

That's the perfect amount of vague.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah. I mean, if you're less vague than that, like you give way, way too much.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

I think the reality we have to acknowledge here is there are two beautiful episodes that already exist about book one and book two. What's book two gonna be called when it's re-released?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yes, book two will be called If We Survive, What Saved Us? And that will be out on April 6th.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

I gotta say, these are really great names, like great hook names.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I had some help with this. This was these two new names were the result of a brainstorm with my editor and my publishing company, Sourcebooks Fire. Um, you know, they really wanted to give it something fresh, something hooky that um that would grab people when they saw it on the shelves. And they were so, so kind to let me keep the dead weight as the series title. And so it's it's always going to be the deadweight series, but there will be this if we survives the blank kind of a theme throughout the series. So I'm I'm happy with the way it turned out.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah. I I think there's a lot to for for authors to learn about like how a title reads to somebody who has no idea what the story is. Um I think The Deadweight was an excellent title. Um but if we survive the night says a lot about it. Like it tells it tells somebody who's coming in cold it's about survival. There's gonna be night involved.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Sleeping might happen.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

There might be sleeping.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

It gets dark.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

Yeah. Well, it I think I like the contingency of the if for both of the titles. Yeah. Um, and how one builds on the other. Because it it will grab you. And like for folks who um maybe haven't heard of you before and they see it in their Walmart special edition on the shelves with the extra chapter and the cool red cover, uh, it will grab them. They're like, if they if they like a thriller, they're gonna know that they want to read this book just by looking at that title. And I think that there's some value to that because we've discussed before how your story is a thriller and a zombie apocalypse. And sometimes you've been struggling with uh in the past, what genre does it fit in? And where are you now with that question mark?

Titling, Genre, And Shelf Placement

SPEAKER_01 11:06

So I I think we all agree on my publishing team, like this is a thriller. Um, it's also horror. It's also like apocalyptic horror. And I just I peeked on one of the websites where this is posted, and they've given it kind of like a a subtitle. And I I believe it is um an apocalyptic horror novel, is like the the subtitle that they've given it. It won't be on the cover or anything like that, but just to like let people know what they're walking into. So I think we're we're standing firm. This is a horror book, but also it's within um an imprint of Source Books Fire that is known for its thrillers. And so I think when people see that little, you know, red emblem on the spine, they're gonna know exactly what they're getting into in terms of you know genre.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

That's really great because I know that you know you made a choice to do this as indie publishing to start. And it's been quite a journey to get to this moment. And one of those challenges was people who maybe don't understand the zombie world as fitting into that apocalyptic horror or just trying to like pinpoint a place for you. So I'm glad that Source Books Fire was able to see it and then be able to promote it appropriately. What's

Going From Indie To Sourcebooks

SPEAKER_04 12:23

that journey been like for you going from indie author Joe dancing around on TikTok to promote your books to now being acquired by Source Books Fire? That's a huge question. So start wherever you want.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, it's been a wild, fast journey because I mean, even today is August 9th, a year ago, I was a self-published author a year ago. And in that year, I I mean, I where did I started? I had no um no agent, no publisher, no book deal. I didn't I didn't have any of that. So everything has changed. Um, I think, you know, we discussed on my first episode why I decided to do ND publishing, and it made perfect sense at the time. And um, you know, I I went out there and I I made the best of it. I I tried everything that I could to find readers and and I started to to build a strong audience. And I am forever grateful to the people who helped make that happen. I you guys have been there from the start. Um, everyone who read and reviewed it on Goodreads, the zombie author community came together to to help me get that kind of momentum. And once it picked up, it was like pedal to the metal. And I it I look back and it's like a blur. Um, but the second I signed on with source books and with my literary agents, like I knew that I had fallen into the right hands. I knew that these were people I could trust that understood the story, that wanted to do with it the exact same thing that I wanted to do with it. And they didn't want me to change anything that that would change the story and what it is and and why people had had fallen in love with the story. So um it's it's been wild. I I can tell you about any of the the pieces of of the puzzle along the way, but I think um, yeah, I mean, do you have like, is there anything specific you want me to talk about?

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Um, I think my first question really is that moment for you when when you realized this was possible and a journey you wanted to take from transitioning from indie to traditionally published, because you have been exceptional, I think, in the way that you self-promoted the book. You made really hilarious TikToks. You um, which I don't even like TikTok, but I like your TikToks. You always had a fantastic pitch. Yep. And people and and you have an incredible story. And so people picked up on that and wanted to cheer for you on and support you. And that's not a surprise because you're a fantastic human and a fantastic writer. Uh, and so you were doing it. You were doing the thing. Um, but then there was this moment. Can you tell us about that moment where the opportunity arose and why you made the choice you made?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yes. And thank you for saying all of that. That's so nice of you. Um, you know, I think the the moment everything changed was at a book event.

The Arkansas Event That Sparked It

SPEAKER_01 15:35

And um, it was a book event in Arkansas, which is, you know, nine hours from my home. I was not anticipating anything to to come from it. Um, my who's uh Kyla, uh, she's a dear friend now, but she was almost a stranger from TikTok before. Um, she invited me to come down and celebrate the release of The Deadweight Resistance, the second book in the series, um, with her book club down in Arkansas. And I didn't know her, I didn't know her book club, but it was the year of saying yes to literally everything to try and find readers for this. And so I said yes. And I drove down to Arkansas and showed up and um and she said, Hey, while you're here, you know, there's this other event that's happening. Um, it was put on by Underbrush Books. Um, and you know, you you should come and set up a table and um sell your books there too. And so I did, and I'm sitting at my table, and someone comes up to my table and they say, Hey, I really like your Goodreads reviews. And I'm like, Well, you did your homework. And they said, Oh, well, that's my job. And I'm thinking, oh, you know, what's your job? And it turns out that that person had a job that held a lot of influence in the book world. And um my my book was was purchased by by them and they read it, and then they put it in the next set of right hands, and then the next set of right hands. And pretty soon I had a direct message from uh from Source Books Fire. And you know, at that point they got into your DMs. They got into my DMs. And I'm thinking this has gotta be a scam, but I I I I followed it through and you know, confirmed that everything was good, and it just it it was real.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

And um so follow through with scams. Because they might be real.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

You never know. Just I mean, I don't still don't have an agent, I don't have a lawyer, I don't know how to negotiate a book deal, and I I don't know anything about anything. And so I started the emergency, yeah. I started I started the emergency query process where I reached out to you know, literary agents saying, like, hey, I have this opportunity, like I think this is real, I don't know what to do about it. Can you please help me? And I'm pretty sure most of them thought I was lying, and because it just doesn't happen like this. This is it was such a wild story, and it's just not how book deals happen, except it did. And um I met an agent who um her name's Renee, and uh she was really enthusiastic about the book. Um, and she pulled in another agent within Spencer Hill Associates, that's the uh the agency. And the two of them said, you know, we'd really like to represent you through this. And so I've had two agents, and they've been, you know, cheering for this book the whole way. And we negotiated the deal, and then we just started rolling, and then we started, you know, the the copy editing process and you know, fixing all the the little typos that slip by or you know, adding commas here and there, because you know, stylistically the way we do commas here is like this like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

All the indie typos. Wait, are they Oxford commas? Are there gonna be a lot of Oxford commas in this book or no?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yes. There, I mean, there's all I am a thing. Were you already an Oxford comma fan?

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

I'm gonna be recomparing when I get them both, which by the way, I don't know how many times I've ordered your book. Just every time I see a pop-up, I'm just thank you. I have to still get it from our town books, which we'll talk about. Um, but I'm so excited I'm gonna be giving it to everybody. But I will be like side by side, being like, okay, this is my um wintry snow day adventures to look at the dead weight versus if we survive the night and see all the little tweaks and changes.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

You won't see much, but every once in a while there's something little that's switched. Yeah.

The Walmart Bonus Chapter Mystery

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Tell us about the extra chapter with your special edition for Walmart.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Oh my goodness. Yeah, what a wild thing. Uh, Walmart is doing an exclusive edition with like a unique colorway. It's like red pink instead of the traditional green. And uh within that is gonna be a bonus chapter. And so one of the most common questions I got when people finished the book was what happened on that riverboat casino before the girls got there? Like, what what went down and how did that happen? And my answer to that was always like, I don't know. And I wasn't gonna tell anybody because I I truly didn't know. But then I got the opportunity to do some bonus material and I thought, well, let me just see if I could like backtrack and like figure out, okay, what did happen? And it was so fun. I loved writing that bonus chapter. So we're we're gonna find out exactly how the situation that they stumbled into on that Rubo Casino came to be.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah, I I love that because there's the the zombie apocalypse genre in general, like there's so many opportunities for stories, and like every room that you go into, you know, if if like authors like to leave breadcrumbs, but they don't always know what happened there. So they just kind of allude to it. They're like, they're like, well, it was a weird thing, and there was a zombie in the corner, and they I don't know, they were holding on to a pinwheel or something. And it's like, what's with the pinwheel? So you know, people want to know why the zombie has the pinwheel. And sometimes you get an opportunity to tell them, and you know, maybe maybe they they like that answer, or maybe they regret it. They regret asking for it.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Oh, I know we need this because I was also one of those people that was like, Joe, what happened? We need to know. So I'm excited to see that um be a part of it. A little bit of a hard pivot. Uh what has uh the contribution of other authors been for you and process and like supporting you and getting this going?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Oh my goodness. I could give you a list of amazing authors who have just either knowingly Yeah.

Surprise Guests Join The Conversation

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Joe, would you like to tell the listeners what's happening right now? Hello.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I might cry. My two favorite zombie authors just joined in the channel. It's Kate El Mary and it's Sarah Lyons Fleming. I oh my God.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

So good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Congratulations on your book.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Thank you so much. That's I don't even know what to say. This is wild.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Well, Joe, once upon a time, in a text, I think I told you this, Kate and Sarah. Welcome, by the way. You said to us, wouldn't it be a dream if we had a panel with my two favorite zombie authors? And we thought, what way could we celebrate this release?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I did say that. I did say that. Well no. I have like a hundred million questions for both.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

That's actually perfect. Um, but before we do that, welcome Kate L. Mary and Sarah Lyons Fleming back to the show. It's so good to see you both.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, it's so great to be here. You know, for me, this is this is uh easily somewhere in the top three of my favorite authors. Um I don't wanna I don't want to say top three just because you know the might somebody might get their feelings hurt out there. Whoever you are, you're in the top three too.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Um it's a big three.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

It's a it's a very loosely arranged three. So very special for me.

SPEAKER_05 23:39

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

So um, Joe, your your dream is my dream, and I'm so happy to be here.

unknown 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

And if folks, you should all know who Kate L. Mary and Sarah Lyons Fleming are. But in case you don't, Kate L. Mary is the author of 30 plus zombie novels. Oh my gosh. The master behind behind the broken world saga and many others. And she's known for the genesis of her slow burn apocalypse. And Kate, or you're you're not, you're I'm saying Kate L. Mary again when I mean Sarah. I have something called Dysnomia, fun fact. Uh Sarah Lyons Fleming is the brilliant mind behind the Until the End of the World series, as well as her other series, City and Cascadia, and is probably the most well-stocked prepper I know with many cans of beans under their bed. I'm a lot of beans. Yeah. And um how this happened, Joe, was I I don't know at what point Dan and I were just sitting around and we were thinking, like, what do we want to do with Joe for this episode? We want to celebrate this. And I remembered you said that, and I was like, you know what? Let's just see if Kate and Sarah will do it. And I'm curious, Kate, Sarah, what was your reaction when you got that email from us?

SPEAKER_05 24:44

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

That'd be fun, Sarah. Sorry. Yeah, it was like that would be fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Yeah. I mean, it's I'm honored. It's like I mean, for real, that's just so great. When I first wrote my first zombie book, I was like, I just hope somebody other than friends and family reads it. Like, that's your goal. So to be somebody's, you know, one of their favorite authors is just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

You're just looking for that one person. One person, please read this and like it.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Turns out all of you have many, many big fans. But I want to give Joe a moment. I know, you know, I I went back and forth, like, do I tell Joe this is happening? I hope you don't hate us for surprising you. But I do want to start off by just giving you a moment because you told us that um people like Sarah and Kate have been really pivotal in paving the path for you as a zombie writer. How did their work influence you? And what would you like to share?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Oh my gosh, put me on the spot. Why don't you? I I could I could probably go on and on. I think it I I spent maybe three years on Kindle Unlimited, just like looking for everything I could find on the zombie apocalypse and and reading book after book after book. And I think, I think Sarah, I found yours first. Um, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, like this is this is exactly what I've been looking for, and I want more of it. I I think I read everything you had had out at that time. And then Kate, I think I found you next with Broken World. And I started there, and then by the time I finished that one, um, I started reading it was the the interconnected one that comes right after that, and it is twist the twisted series. The twisted series, thank you. And then I read that one, and then I started back at the beginning and I read them again. And then I think by that time I was like, you know what? I want to do this. I think I can do this. And I I believed I could do it because I saw you doing it. And um when I when I finally finished my first draft, I don't know what possessed me to do this, but Kate, I wrote you a letter. I wrote you an email, and I was like, hey, you know, I I finished a first draft. Thank you for your influence. And uh, Sarah, you are notoriously difficult to find online. You're merely a ghost online. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

I don't really yeah, I I have I get anxious, like I have a lot of anxiety and um in general, and going online, especially like over time, has gotten more and more anxiety producing for me. So then I just run away. So yeah, I used to be more online and now I sort of like go online and I do like two things, and then I'm like, nah, then I run away. And then I'm like, no, you'll try again, and then I yeah, I don't know. It's just become more and more like stress-producing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

The only reason we know you, Sarah, is because Courtney introduced you, and then we also knew that you knew Elm, and so we were like, all right, we will conspire. I had to become Facebook friends, yeah, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

To first reach you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry, but I was able to reach Kate, and not only did you give me an entire Google Doc of resources, just like every marketing resource. Yeah, Kate, send that my way. And you offered to read my first three chapters of this baby book that no editor had ever seen before at this point. And so I and and you were honest, like you actually pointed out things that I could improve, and I did it. I did all the things you said.

SPEAKER_05 28:46

I think it's like there, I mean, so many people did that for me when I first started. And then I also I think I I hope I told you I was like, take all of this with a grain of salt, because I made that mistake in the beginning of uh the first thing I wrote. I listened to somebody completely and was like, oh, I changed all this stuff. And then it wasn't me anymore. So yeah, so it was like take it with a grain of salt. These are things I've learned from working with editors, and um, you know, I had an agent and a traditional book deal and and like worked with a lot of editors, and so it's like still maintain your voice, but these are things I've learned. So, you know, take it how you will to hopefully develop your own craft. That's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

And it was so helpful. I I could not believe that someone would stop their day and do something like and and it made me think, wow, I want to be part of the author community. Like if someone ever reached out to me like that, I want to be able to do that for them. And um I just appreciate it more than you know.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

Oh, well, you're so welcome. I like it. I always want to help people because in the beginning you feel so overwhelmed. And so, where am I gonna go with this? And I would just message random people, and that was back in the days when I was on Twitter. Uh random random authors. Back when it was good.

unknown 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:12

Yeah. Random authors who were also self-published and be like, I don't know where to go from here. Can you point me in this direction? Yeah, and and so yeah, everybody's typically the author community is very, very supportive and helpful.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Yeah.

Craft, Confidence, And Staying True

SPEAKER_04 30:25

That's what I wanted to ask you both, actually, Sarah. Let's start with you. Who was an author who made you think I can do this too?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Um so uh I I don't know if there was an author because honestly, when I started writing Until the End of the World, I had only ever read World War Z. That was it. I'd never read a zombie book. Um, like another one besides that. Um and but I was reading a bunch of like self-published prepper kind of stuff, and I was like, you know, I got first of all, they were all the same dude. And I was just like, I'm tired of reading about this dude. And like, where's the submissive wife? Oh, there she is, she's cooking dinner, uh, you know, and like I was just and I was like, Where are people like me? I have a lot of beans, like, why aren't I in a book? You know, and like, um, and and so it was more of like seeing other people just self-publishing or just writing something that I was like, I'm just gonna try this. Like, and I honestly didn't actually have a plan for it. It was more like I was inspired to write a book, but I kind of thought, like, oh, I'll just like post it on zombie forums, maybe because it's a zombie book, like I for free. Like, I didn't even know, you know. Um, but yes, but I think it was more of like the overall like watching people sort of just put work out there. And then I was like, hmm, I think I could do this. Like, even though I professed like I would never ever write a book because um my now ex but husband, um he went to school for writing, he got an MA and an MFA in creative writing, he teaches writing. Um, and I was just like, oh, I was always this alpha reader, and I was like, I don't know how you could do this. Like I was a huge reader, but I was like, writing a book is so annoying. Like, oh, you know, like so like then you know, however, 15 years later, I'm like, I'm gonna try this, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Now you're like, now I'm going to write my ninth book.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

I sure don't know what number you're up to. I don't know your ex, and so we can bleep this out, but I'm sure your books are better, Sarah. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Um, actually, he kind of uh what's funny is that his um hi Will, if you're listening, he we're we're actually really good friends.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So we take back everything we were thinking in our heads.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

No, no, no. We're we're it's it's like amicable. We're you know, co-parenting friends. We went to go see the new pornographers together recently, you know, to show I'm a a band. Um but uh so so we're butts. But in any event, um I don't remember. Oh no, well, it kind of the the second, the MFA that he took kind of killed his love of writing. Oh yeah. Um, and I think what you were saying earlier about so many voices, um, sort of poisoning the writing well that you have, like your own well. Um that kind of happened, you know. Um, just there were so so many people, and like especially when you've only got part of your book written, and then you've got all these people like about you know, dissecting it and telling you all these things, but then you're like, it's three chapters, like and that was part of the reason why, and and still to this day, no one ever sees my first draft. They don't see a word of it, nothing same, same it's like first draft, and then there's 1.5 where that's like everything that I just was like, forget that, like it's you're gonna cut that, but just keep going. And the first draft comes out, and then like that's just like rough, you know, cutting. But yeah, and then maybe beta readers at two, you know, that's when I do betas, but um yeah, no, but yeah, kind of killed it. So he he's done some um and he he leans more toward nonfiction now and essays and things. So um, but yeah. So no books, but I guess he's like, yeah, let's paint anything. You're killing it though, so oh my god, miss 30 plus books.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah, truly. And I will say though, I am number two on the list. I only I only minored in creative writing, folks, no MFA, but also don't write anymore. So I think there is something there. But a friend of mine who was a part of that actually just got published. But that's a whole sidebar that I'm very happy for her. Way to go, Lara Stick.

SPEAKER_05 34:44

Yeah, I guess that makes me feel better. I never didn't even finish my degree because, like I have said before on my previous interview, I grew up very conservative and I dared started dating my husband, and it was like, get married, get married, get married. So I got married very, very young. So maybe it's better that I didn't finish it and uh, you know, just kept my own voice and my own thoughts. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, I mean, I never even took a writing class or anything. I was just like, I'm gonna try writing this book now.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

So I failed English in high school.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

So what about you? Were there were there authors or people in your life that made you think, okay, I'm gonna do this?

SPEAKER_05 35:23

I think I said this the last time we talked, but um uh my start was when the Hunger Games became very popular and I read it, and that was right as my um my husband, we lived in California at the time, and my husband was gone so much when we lived there, like over 200 days a year, and I had four little kids, and I was just like stuck at home and I was just reading, reading, reading, and I'd always wanted to write a book, and then uh reading the Hunger Games reminded me how much I've I how much I loved 1984 when I was in high school, and I was like, oh, I'll read that again. And then Oh now you get to live in 1984. Sorry, I'm sorry, I didn't read that. I had to say it wasn't what I wanted. Yeah, so I I just started reading dystopian books like crazy, and um that's what I was really going for. My first book that I wrote was Dystopian, and then uh was waiting looking for an agent and a book deal and all that stuff. And in the meantime, The Walking Dead was on, and it was peak popularity of The Walking Dead, and I actually I think I started writing it was maybe the beginning of season two. And uh I was like, I'm writing a zombie book. I've always loved zombie stuff, I love survival stuff, I'm just gonna write this. And I was like looking for an agent at the time, and they said there's no market for zombie stuff, and so I was like, Well, I'm not even going to like submit this or anything, I'm just gonna self-publish it while I'm looking for an agent for my dystopian stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Meanwhile, it was possibly the best time to be publishing anything about zombies.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And zombie stuff sells better, but publishers like they didn't so I, you know, because my husband was like totally into like knowing about trad stuff and all that, he he was like, just send out because uh you know, I was like post gonna post on a zombie forum, and then it was like, Oh well, maybe then I learned more about Kindle. I was like, maybe I'll put it out like 99 cents and just see if anybody actually reads it, you know. Yeah. My husband was like, try the trad root. And I was like, so while I was like finishing, I did, I think I sent out to like five agents and you know, got back like, I read it, but there's like I read what you sent me, like from two people. They were like, but nobody wants a book that long, and nobody wants a book book about zombies. And I was like, Oh, there's so wrong. And then I was like, Well, I don't care. Oh, I'm not sure. Oh no, no, no. What's hilarious is that once I published until the end of the world, um I then had an agent contact me, and then I for I was briefly like her client, but then I just fired her because I was like, I don't really feel like having an agent, like why do I have you? But um, but uh was I saying now I I this is my ADHD. Sorry. Um I don't know. Oh, oh, I ended up getting an agent from one of the agencies, totally different person that had rejected me. She's like, I'd like to represent you. And I was like, okay, that's hilarious, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

Yeah, Joe, um, you've had your own experiences and you've you're going through this journey right now. But you're for you also chose to initially start with self-publishing. What was your what was the reason for that?

SPEAKER_01 38:35

I did. I I had many reasons, and I think probably reason number one that I decided to do independent publishing is because Sarah and Kate, you both did it. And I I like I I remember telling you guys, and I think I even made a video about this, and I like listed all the reasons. And it's, you know, all my favorite zombie authors are self-published. And I didn't think anyone would buy like I I thought readers would buy it. I didn't think publishing houses would buy it because I hadn't really seen it done with the exception of World War Z, with the exception of um what was uh the the one that you did um with uh with the other podcast.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Uh uh Warm Bodies.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Warm bodies, thank you. But but even that is not you know survival zombie apocalypse. That's it's you know kind of romance. And so I didn't think that this was something that could be mainstream. I thought I would find my people and my people would love it, and you know, we would be this zombie-loving community. I didn't imagine that I would get a call from a publisher after all of this. It it and it happened exactly when I needed it to. It happened right when I felt like I had hit a plateau. And I was wondering, you know, where else do I go? How else do I market this? How do I reach that next level of of readership when you know the algorithms are so crowded? It came at exactly the right time. That's awesome.

unknown 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

And when does it come out? It comes out in well, today in like real time. It's two and a half weeks. I think when this episode comes out, it's tomorrow. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Cool. Yeah, August 28.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

Yeah. Why do you think that the that you all were getting the answer of like nobody wants zombies when there was obviously a huge zombie craze?

Why Publishers Fear Zombie Risk

SPEAKER_05 40:34

I don't think that publishers want to take publishers, editors, they don't want to take any risks. Um they have a formula that works. This is why you read some of the same books over and over again. Because I know I did have an age, I still do. She represents my um at this point, she only represents my audiobooks for the Broken World series. But um, for a while I was really, really trying to get that big book deal because, you know, obviously it would be a dream to walk into Barnes Noble and see your book right there. But um when I wrote Tribe of Daughters, which was a post a matriarchal society in a post-apocalyptic world, my agent loved it and sent it to out a source books. Every single like my the editor loved it. She had the whole entire editorial team read it. And they gave me feedback, but ultimately they were just like, we don't know where to put it in our category, in our catalog, because it doesn't totally fit this, it doesn't totally fit that. And so they passed, even though they all loved it. And they gave me great feedback where I I edited, did some editing and and changed some things. Um, I didn't, yeah, the like the feedback that I got from them was really, really good. But they don't want to take risks. They have a formula, what works, and you know, a lot of what we see um in the mainstream, you know, big publishers when it comes to apocalyptic fiction is typically like more literary apocalyptic fiction. And that that is why so many people do so well on Kindle Limited with survival apocalyptic zombie stuff, is because the readers can't get it from publishers, so they just buy they get Kindle Unlimited and they can read as much as they want because everybody's there.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Because they updated their genres.

SPEAKER_04 42:28

There is an interesting trend happening, though, I think. And and by trend, I mean I have two examples of this, so maybe it's not a trend. But we just had on the show a few weeks ago TJ Payne, who wrote Intercepts. I think that was published in 2021. Yeah, something like that. Self self-published, um, and then just got picked up by Penguin Random House and re-released in May. And it's like you've got sometimes it's happening, but it's almost like for it to happen, for a publisher to trust that your voice and your story matters, they have to already see that there's an audience. It's really hard. It's a hard industry to break through. And I something I admire about all three of you and many authors who start the indie route or any route is the self-belief. How did you, how did you do that? Like, how did you is that a wild question to ask? Because obviously you're here, you did it, people love your books, but there's a really big barrier between writing it, doing it, believing that somebody's out there who wants to read your book and actually making that happen. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

Sorry, I mean, I'll go, sorry, I was talking more. I had always wanted to be a writer. Um, I was a stay-at-home mom, so I wasn't risking anything. Um, I had no money for marketing. I can't believe that Broken World did as well as it did, considering I had no funding. I was just like, hopefully, a few people read this. They wanted to know if they kiss.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

When did when did you when did you release Broken World?

unknown 43:59

Um

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Gone. What years? I think I know. Like, why am I forgetting this? Okay, let's see. It's ridiculous when I'm like, I don't remember how many books I have in it.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

I know I released until the end of the world in 2012. Joe is literally opening up the book. 2012. 2012.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Like yeah, 2012, 2013. 2014, Mary. Oh my gosh. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Um, but I that was like a really good time to first release books. Those years, like anytime between like 2010, 11 and 20, maybe 15 or something, really good time to get your face out there because back then you could still do free days that would actually get people to look at your book. And so um, you know, and 99 cent sales and algorithms worked. And so the more people bought your book, then Amazon would send other people, hey, people are buying this book, look at this. And now it's just like so ads-based that it's like you know, trying to be seen is so much harder than it was because there were ways to really market yourself without marketing. Because, like you, I had I was, you know, stay-at-home mom. I did like a craft show thing, like a we have a thing called Saturday Market here. So I did like some art stuff, but like, you know, I didn't have any marketing budget, like, you know, I was just like, hey, let's so I mean, I I was on like some random prepper forum um on homesteading today. And so I was like, well, I never post in here, I just read. I was like, well, but let me just post. I was like, you know, my book, I wrote a book and it's zombies and it's coming out, and I'm gonna put it for free. Anybody wants a free book, you know. So I did like the first like five days free or something. Oh, nice. And and then that just like boom, like I started to get reviews. When you got reviews, then Amazon would start sending your thing, you know, your stuff to people. So um, yeah, but now they don't do that.

SPEAKER_05 45:55

Yeah, and it's a huge difference. I mean, anytime I get a book bub ad, I'm like, yay, that's amazing. Um, but the first time I got one from Broken World, I had 30,000 free downloads in the in within four days. And I mean, just it's incredible. And and then I also got lucky that another author accused me of plagiarism because we had the same name for our my third book was coming out, and it was and they're her series, her zombie series was Mad World, and my third book was Mad World. She accused me of plagiarism on social media and had her her readers attack me, and then the writing community oh yeah, it was really bad. I was crying. I was so upset because I was like, I've never even heard of this person. What is she talking about? And and I mean, plagiarism is the story.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

How could like you can't accuse me of plagiarism for a title? Like that's you can't even copyright a title, it's not a thing, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:56

She said it was uh because both of our characters, both of our stories revolved around characters trying to survive after a zombie apocalypse and traveling to California. And I was like, I lived in California when I wrote it. That's why I did that.

SPEAKER_04 47:13

Everybody raised their hand if there's people trying to survive and traveling in your zombie book. Right?

SPEAKER_05 47:18

Hello. That's like every book genre. But it actually found me a lot of new readers who knew.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

I'm glad it worked out that way. And so, yeah, like then there, you know, it's like the one star brigades were all like big, and I mean we'll still do that. I just like that's why I'm always hiding. I'm like, I can't. Oh yeah, people are just so cruel, like in the line.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

And I just yeah, Joe, you can't afford to hide in this era, right? Like it's a totally different era getting started. So we have 2013-2014 for both of your first books, and yours came out in 2024.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

2024, the year of the algorithm and social media. And I when I posted my book on Amazon, KDP, um, self-published, I got I think an audience from being on your podcast, my family and friends, um, and people who had just by chance found me on Instagram and decided to take a chance. It wasn't like I I think I might have sold a hundred copies that first week, which is good, which is great, but it was very much a slow process of finding an audience. And it was very difficult for people to find me. My whole strategy was get on TikTok, find like book talkers who were talking about books that were in a similar vein, send them a DM, ask them to let me mail them a copy of my book, and hope that they read it and reviewed it. And I had to do that a couple hundred times. Wow. Wow. Oh my gosh. So it was like the because Amazon doesn't show your book to anyone unless you pay them for ads. And even if you pay them for ads, I have not had luck with that channel.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

I have some horrible Amazon ads. I even went and like hired a fancy person to like set them all up and like show me how, blah blah la. And like every ad just like started to just fail. And then I and then I, you know, did a whole deep dive and found out that like the one Amazon ad that was like, wow, this is doing great. You know what it was? It was like people who were looking for my name.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

This is the sponsored link.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Yeah, if you're searching for this name. Once for the click, and then then the percentage that you get anyway. Like, if I was like, okay, goodbye to that ad. And then that was like, you know, I can't with you. I can't make that work. And I don't have a you know, the people who are like, well, I make you know, 300 grand a year uh because I spend a hundred thousand dollars on ads, and I'm like, Well, yeah, I don't got that. So, you know, like I can't do that crazy ass spend that something you can do to make ads work.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

I'm trying to picture you as somebody who's not very into social media publishing in the era that Joe you started and having to do TikTok dances.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Oh my god, I think I'd have to like hire my daughter or something. Kate, did you ever do a TikTok dance?

SPEAKER_05 50:21

And I'm like, girls, why don't you ever help me with this? I've never even been on TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Yeah, I hardly. And this is I have my name up there. My I think my son made that account. And I've never once posted to it.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

This is what brings me back to like the self-belief. And I think one of my favorite, I think I probably tell the world how much I love Metric. It's a Canadian band, um, and the lead singer Emily Haynes, who's the lyricist. And she hasn't a book, or not a book, sorry, a song out right now that talks about like the difference between saying I'm gonna do something and doing something. And that is like, I, you know, I feel like some to some degree, you're like, well, I just did it. I was great. It was, you know, in your case, Kate and Sarah, you were stay-at-home moms. In your case, Joe, I think you were writing this at 4:30 in the morning before your day job. But every single one of you were like, I'm actually doing this. And I am curious, like, if you have advice or if you know what the thing is inside of you that moved you to action, to doing it, to believing this was real and you could actually make things happen in in all kinds of obstacles and different ways for each of you.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

I think for me, like, um, I just got really inspired by the story, by the characters. Like that is what sort of because when I had the thought, like, maybe I could write a book that's like, you know, survival, but not this dude that's in every book. Um, I was sort of like, boom. I just started thinking of like the scenario, the characters, like the back Cassie's background. Like I and I'm, you know, I didn't do this normally. So uh and and then I just got like, you know, like just so inspired, sort of like they were having conversations in my head, and I was like, well, I have to get this out, you know, I've got to like get this on the page, sort of. Um and I think that not necessarily thinking about all the people that you want to read it. If you do that, like that can kind of kill it. Like I think you really need to be writing it because you're excited and you want to be writing this story, you know. It sounds like compulsion. Yeah, kind of, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like kind of I used to say that like writing felt like reading a really long book, you know. But uh like you know, and like when you're just like all caught up in a story, it's kind of like that.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

So when you don't like the story, you can just delete it and then put something else.

unknown 52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:41

I I'm with you on that of uh like writing for yourself. I think that is a big thing in being successful because if you try to write to the market or what's gonna please people, you're like it's impossible. Um, I started writing because I was bored because I was by myself all the time. Um, and I filled some need in me that I didn't even know I had. It was more just like, I've always wanted to do this, I'm just gonna do this. And then once I wrote the first book, I could not stop. Um and it it was really, it was it was a big form of therapy for me. And then I before I even knew I needed therapy of creating like getting into the heads of different people because like I said, I grew up so, so conservative and so like not great that I was now I'm able to like get in get into the heads of other people and put myself in their shoes and see the world through their eyes. And it was a big growing thing for me to understand like the world is so big and different.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah. I I think another thing is like what you were saying, a form of therapy. I ended up going um through a really rough time uh when I when I started writing the book, and it was almost like an escape in a lot of ways. The way the way reading has always been an escape for me, writing became also an escape for me, and everybody's like, How did you go through this period and have like, you know, my son was, I guess I started writing when he was like two and a half or something, and my daughter was, you know, five, four, you know, five. Um and you know, and they're like, I'm all writing like on an iPod while my kid is asleep with this feet in my lap because my eyes are the worst sleepers on earth. Um and uh you know, but it was like this, like you're saying, like a compulsion, and it was like therapy, like writing these people's lives and like the these, like the the heartaches and the the the all of that sort of I think it really like helped me to work, even it was totally different scenario, like help to work through it, you know. And I've gotten emails from people saying that my books have helped them to get through some rough period and like the character and stuff. And I'm like, you know, that's really like the first time I got an email like that, I was like, oh wow, like holy shit, that's so like that's amazing, you know. Um, and then I started to think, like, yeah, that's kind of like maybe what you put on the page and what was working, you know, helped you work through things, has helped other people because of that, because it was that sort of therapeutic experience, too.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Yeah. I think for me, it was I I had just never had so much fun doing anything in my entire life. And I I had built an entire career trying to convince people to do things that they didn't want to do, right? Like I was a social worker for teenagers. Um, and then I worked in um, you know, like consulting for school districts, trying to convince teachers to teach and think in different ways. Um and this was something that I didn't have to force, and I didn't have to, it was just me and the page. And I had been writing nonfiction for so long, and then I had sold my nonfiction series, and because of that, you know, you signed non-competes, and I had a five-year stretch where I wasn't gonna be able to write nonfiction in my genre anymore. And I I just I couldn't stop writing and I didn't know what else to do, but I did know I loved zombies, and I did know that, you know, this is the only thing I want to read. Why don't I try writing it? And I don't, I don't there, there's just nothing on earth that I want to do more than than this. I I feel like I can't go back.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Well, and I hope you don't have to, and it's it's such a great feeling. It's like like people used to say, you know, what in like I well, I used to say it like or I do say it's work, but it's not work. You know, it's it can be frustrating and you can be like, fuck this, you know, and and I have many ISO moments, and like, what are you even thinking? Like, how do you think anybody fucking wants to read any shit that you're putting on this page right now? Now, you know, like I mean, really, like like mean and you know, to myself, like, but but it's still like not work, you know, in a sense, like even when it's rough, it's like you still want to do it, it's still like fun, you know, overall.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

You know, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Uh Kevin Smith uh sometimes talks about like what he does and like how you know he kind of like plays down uh his successes as a filmmaker because he's like, you know, I just wake up in the morning and I get to play pretend. Um and I I kind of feel like that's what writing is. It's you know, you gotta move your fingers on the keyboard and everything. But in in the end, it's like it's all this stuff that's in your head, but it's like playtime.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah, yeah, completely exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Um speaking of uh of Kevin Smith and uh w worlds where people create things. Um

Women Changing Zombie Fiction

SPEAKER_00 58:07

zombie fiction, you touched on this earlier uh Sarah, uh when you were talking about when you got started writing. Uh it's been pretty male dominated. Um how have you how have how have each of you felt in your careers and uh going along in this w male-dominated centered world where that's like the majority of what you see? And you think that that's changing in any way. Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Go for it. Yeah, well I I mean I don't uh I think I think it started changing like it it has over the years. Um I I also think I don't I don't try to market that way anyway, not that I do ton of marketing, but like I I always just sort of embraced the the the non that of my books, you know. Like when I first released it, I used to jokingly, and you know, like but in public, call it um zombie chiclet, you know, just and and then I would totally get emails from men being like, it's not chiclet, maybe you like chiclet and you just don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Like, no, this is hardcore and it's cool.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Yeah, I'm like, you know, um or or men would write and be like, I can't believe it. I liked your books, even you know, there's romance, and I'd be like, even though there's ladies in it.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

There's romance with thoughts, romance of the world.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Yeah, I'm like, are are you married? And they're like, you know, I'm like, well, that's romance, you dumbass. Like, you know, probably not for their wives.

SPEAKER_05 59:34

I'm like, yeah, I'm like, people had start fall stop falling in love and fucking just because there's a zombie.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

And uh exactly, and you know, it's just like everybody wants love of like you know, of of all kinds. Like, that's like what so many like of my books like explore is like you know, that family and friendship and love. It's just you know, romantic and otherwise, and like so. I think you know, they'd be like, Well, I can't believe I like that. I'm like, yeah, well, because like they're human and so are you, and so you know, like you found a way to tap into that and not feel, I don't know, unmanly or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:19

Yeah, I think, oh god, and this is obviously there are exceptions to every single thing, but I think there's a big difference when it comes to survival or zombie or the books when it's a female author as opposed to a male author, because with the female authors, we tend it, it does tend to be more a focus on the relationships in the book, and then the survival is kind of the second part of it, and then the romance is the third part of it. So whereas a lot of male zombie books and things, they are they are really, really focused on the survival and the gore and the prepping and you know, the conflict. And I'm like, I feel like the big thing is to create those characters, make them as real as possible, then put them in a situation and be like, how is this person, would this person with this personality react to this? And so it is a focus on the person more and not the scenario more.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Right. Definitely. Yeah. I I think I've definitely seen the landscape change over the last decade or so. And I think you know, the the male-centric story, the the prepper aspects, the the gore, the you know, the what do you guys call him? The well the white male power fantasy. The whitey mighty mighty white power fantasy I heard you say.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

Oh I'm I mean, I'm going to say that like that from now on.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

From now on, I the mighty whitey fantasy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Oh but I thought looking at the yeah, and it's definitely still there, but I feel like we have more opportunity to curate the kinds of stories that we want on our shelves now. Yeah. And I think that's largely because of what the two of you have done, and so many other women have followed that lead. And I I can open up my Kindle now and search and find a story that I want to read. And um, and I don't have to filter through things where I'm just kind of, you know, tolerating, you know, a story that's kind of like, well, I'm just gonna, you know, close my eyes to that part that was not so great and keep going just for, you know, the zombie vibes. We don't have to do that anymore. And I love that. I love that the genre is more inclusive. I love that there's room for all of these stories and all of this nuance. And that's why everybody gets to belong. Like even if a story isn't for you, there's something now for everyone, I feel like. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

Joe, I want to ask you something because I think it's, you know, part of why we did this because I know that the the legacy that Sarah and Kate, you have created. I don't know if you think of yourselves as legends, but you kind of are. Um what has helped pave the path for you. But you're now doing the same thing. Have you had the chance to think about that, or have you had anybody say that to you yet?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

I haven't, but that would be incredible. I mean, I I have had the opportunity to be with a lot of young people. Um, when I was, you know, in the early stages of the hustle, like I was going out to high schools and just, you know, cold calling English teachers and saying, Hey, can I come talk to your class? And like they would say yes occasionally, and I got to to talk to them. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it was so fun. Um, and I got to talk to young readers uh and and hear what they're thinking. And um I I think it would be so cool to get an email in five years, 10 years from from one of the people who were in the room that day. And I I I hope that that happens someday. That would be amazing. I I got to teach creative writing last week um to a group of students, high school students on the south side of Chicago. They had um some summer programming to help build self-esteem. And I got to go down and talk to them. And um we were kind of outlining, like, if you were to write a zombie apocalypse story, what would go in your story? And I had one student come up to me afterward and say, Hey, I think I'm actually gonna try and write this. I was like, I hope you do, and when you do, can you please send it to me? And she was like, Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah. So I hope that that happens because everybody needs somebody to tell them. Yeah, I mean, we don't always get permission to write our stories, but it's a lot easier when someone gives it to us. Um, you know, we've always I I think uh Dan, you and I have kind of bonded over the like going to high schools where we just didn't get the encouragement that we might have needed to do this, but it's it's you know, to be able to give that to someone, that's that's well like I said, I've I failed I failed English in high school, and there's a good reason for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

You know, I mean quick quick aside, I won't take up too much of the air in the room, but um the the per the person, the English teacher that changed my attitude about writing was the summer school teacher who actually taught me something about like taking taking what you see and turning it into a story. And actually wanted me to make a story instead of just read a book and write about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Yeah. Um, Joe, I do I know that Dan is not a woman newsflash for all of you, but you've already you've already paid it forward. Just wanna point that out. Like I think I'm curious for you, Kate and Sarah, like maybe it's not always so obvious the impact that you have, right? Like you have you have the people who reach out to you, you that just write send those letters like, hey, this really helped me go through a hard time, or like you know, you've had those moments.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

I've met some good friends who like I we're we've become each other's beta readers from those females, you know, that like I'm an author and I, you know, I'm trying to write a book now and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah but also just tell, you know, and I love your books. And like, then we just start emailing back and forth, and then eventually, like, oh, I'm like, well, send me your book when you've done, like, I I beta, you know, and and I think that's like my most long-lasting beta reader and friendships have come from those emails, you know, of yeah. So, and like it's like they're like, you know, that's so awesome that like we met that way and that you became like a reader for me. And I'm like, Yeah, but same, you know, like so that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

Yeah, no, um, I I didn't even know about your podcast until some one of my readers sent me a message and was like, Oh, right. I was thinking of that. Oh my gosh, Joe, thank you. I just remember somebody was like, Oh, they mentioned you, and I was like, I didn't even know this podcast was a thing. Okay. And at that time I didn't listen to podcasts at all. So I I didn't, oh, except the Office Ladies podcast. That was the only one I listened to. And so now I'm a big podcast person. And so, but uh, I was just like, oh, somebody talked about me. That's so sweet. Anytime. Yeah, no, and then yeah, I remember you talking about um listening to my book while you're mowing, and I listen to books while I mow too. So I was like, oh, okay. That's so great.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:43

Yeah. The impact that each of you have had and will have is so far reaching that you can't see it. And I hope that you know I hope that like when things are hard or where you have the imposter syndrome moment that you can remember that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:54

Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you. I really

Writing Through Anxiety And Survival Mode

SPEAKER_05 1:07:57

need this right now. I'm really struggling to write right now. I'm still some anxiety and depression. And so like it's making it make it makes it really difficult to concentrate.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Yeah, I think I need Joe in your life. Joe, we were talking about this before the podcast, but Joe is is an excellent hype person. Joe, Joe has like such an enthusiasm about anything that you say that you're doing. Oh, okay. I don't know where it comes from.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:26

Um maybe I'll text her and be like, tell me it's like tell me it's okay because I'm amazing either or something. Oh, I will.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

I will. Hey, Kate, if you if you I'm having the same thing, I keep getting emails like, where is the book? Where is it? Yeah, like Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

Sometimes your readers are a little aggro, I gotta say.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

Yeah, well, but not even, I mean, I get it. It's been uh it's like two years, over two years since I last published the book, and and I'm like, okay, but the world has fallen apart. Don't you want to do it? Exactly, exactly. I'm has gone so crazy that like I don't know how you cannot be affected by it unless you are just not paying attention or caring or like it. Like, you know, I have found it really hard to get my brain out of like I'm going to need to survive this world, like with my children. Like, and I can't like my brain's like, we're doing that, we're surviving this world right now. And it's really hard, like, to to to get your brain into creative mode when you're in survival mode. Yeah, I don't know how if you feel like emailing me and we can talk about that okay to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:38

I don't know how old your kids are, but my kids are all teenagers or adults.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Yeah, yeah. I have 19 and 19 and 17 in a week. So that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:48

So mine are 22, 19, 17, and 15. And and so I'm like uh my oldest is 22 and he's gay, so bad time. And then I have a 19 and 17-year-old daughter, bad time right now. Um, yeah, it's just a lot of worrying about like my family and it's making it difficult. Yeah, difficult. I'm like, I do this is not the world I wanted my kids to grow up in.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

I know they're like, thanks, thanks for having us. I'm like, hey, I you were conceived when there was hope. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

I moved to I moved to the United States when Obama was president, you know. I I had hope and change, believe in the point.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:31

I said it was conceived in December of 2008. So yeah, like Yeah, I'm crazy. It's just crazy right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:38

So yeah. Joe, how are you feeling about writing at the moment? How are you navigating the the balance of both of those things?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

I think it's just pure adrenaline at this point. Um I I think that I just enjoy the world of it, like the escapism of it so much that um that it it becomes another place to exist that isn't, you know, the place where the horrors are are actively happening. And and I'm grateful that that is possible. I'm grateful that I'm able to make my brain do that because it's not, you know, it's not it's not something that happens to everyone. Um so I'm I'm I'm grateful that that is happening right now. But it's and it and it also like there's a component of guilt to it too. Like it's the worst time on earth, and yet this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like this um this publishing deal and putting out this book, it it's it's the most fun I've ever had. And then I look out my window and I think, holy like literal smoke outside of my window, like wildfires and poison lettuce and the administration and the disenfranchised, like it just it's awful, but the writing feels like an escape, and I'm I'm grateful to to have that right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's nice. I've I'm finding that, and it usually is for me, and I'm finding that part more difficult than ever in recent year, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:16

Yeah, yeah. You shouldn't feel guilty for uh embracing what's good. That doesn't take away from like anything else that's happening or your fight for for you know justice or anything like that. Like you're allowed, don't feel guilty about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

Don't thank you for saying that. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

Yeah, you gotta find the good. And I mean, you know, as apocalyptic writers, we know that it's it's all about finding the good.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:51

Yeah, I mean, I would like years.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

True. Decades.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:55

And I also believe that each of you will have the moments of of being there and like having that joy amidst the brutality of this world and not doing it. I think uh a long time ago, someone said to me, like, even when you're asleep, Leah, it's day side, daytime on the other side of the world, and people are doing they're they're living their lives, they're doing the work, they're doing the things. And so, like, I think it's okay. I I don't know that what it feels like on the inside, especially when you're getting people being like, give me more of your books. No, but I think it's okay to have some dormancy and quiet and self-care. And it's also equally okay to be in that moment where things are really great and the sun is shining, and that's just part of the cycle of literal life.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, like I would love to be able to be like cranking out the words at the moment. Like, it's not like I'm like, I I feel like some uh like some moral superiority because of this. I'm like, fuck, like god damn it. And I mean, I'm not at all like enjoying that, like the anxiety, stress levels. Like, I would absolutely like to, and I feel like I've been able to more in recent like months of like more getting like my brain to settle and and be like, okay, like we have to compartmentalize things. We have to like usually I'm really good at that, you know. And you know, I think mainly because like ADHD forgetfulness, I'm like, you know, I can compartmentalize because I'm like la la la over here, you know, and it's been hard to do that, but yeah, I think that's an awesome ability. And I wish that like I could, you know, I hope that it comes back in the way I've had it before.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:32

Yes, agreed. Uh the same. Yeah, I it it's just everything is so distracting now that I used to get so focused on whatever I was writing, and it wasn't all consuming because I still got everything done, and now the world feels like it's just in bombarding my brain to where I'm having a hard time. And it's not just yeah, and it's it doesn't help that my family issues, not my husband and my kids, but extended my mom and siblings are bombarding uh that as well. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

Well, yeah, you said you come from a conservative background, so I'm sure that's yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:10

Yeah. But I wish I could use it as an escape the way I used to. That is like yeah, it's not just it's not just an escape from reality, it's an escape and that is like enjoyable. It's like reading a book or watching a movie, but better because you're controlling it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:30

Just throwing it out there, what if we all pretended it was the zombie apocalypse and went camping together, and you all can write, and I will attempt to make you edible food cheese from cans. From cans from which the labels have been ripped off so that we don't know what we're getting each night.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:52

Um, meetup or yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:04

Would love that. I wonder wonder who suggested that first many years ago, Joe.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:12

But I do think that you deserve space.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:14

Yeah. But I think, you know, like it's hard to be, it's hard to to separate oneself from the hells and the horrors. And um, we do all like we do all deserve joy too. And like every every moment we can squeeze out of this world that we get to have joy, I want to have it. Plus, selfishly would love to hang out with all of you in person.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:35

Yeah, I'm in.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:37

All right, let's do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:38

You heard it here. Yeah, what's everybody doing next weekend? My kids are old enough that I can leave them alone. And uh, like I said, my husband flies for Delta now, so I can fly for free.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:48

So there you go. Okay, well, we'll have to figure out where we can all meet up. Um, because we're all in all parts of the world. You know who's conveniently central? Joe Salazar in the Midwest.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:00

I didn't know that you were in Chicago and then I was there what was two summers ago. Um, the summer, yeah, last summer. My friend and I were there and we went to the shameless house. And you commented. You commented and you were like, I'm just a few blocks from there. And we had already left Chicago by then. My we took our daughters there to see a Tyler the Creator concert.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

So man, next time you're in Chicago, yeah, to go get coffee.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:24

Yeah, my daughter was just there just for La La Palooza.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:28

Oh my gosh, yeah. I am very sad that we are coming to the end of our time together. And Joe, you said you had a million questions. I don't know if there's just one you want to ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Oh gosh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:40

Um don't worry, we have them.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

So now that now that I'm on the the spot, uh I feel like I've already been getting so many like good nuggets of just just like I feel like this is my birthday. It feels like this is the best gift I've ever received. I'm just I'm having fun just taking it all in. So um I didn't have time to prepare. This is why I was so close to telling you. I'm glad you didn't. I'm glad you surprised me. Okay,

What We Would Do Differently

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

good. Well uh no, but go ahead, continue with your question.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

I I have a question. Um so all three of you, you've you started off indie, um, and then you've you've gone your your own paths. And let's let's just say we make like a time machine. It's one of the it's the kind of time machine that takes your your brain and puts it back in time and you're in your old your old body that's older, but younger body. Like you're not physically going back in time. I have my younger body. Yeah, same. I'm gonna tell myself a whole lot of stuff that I should do differently. Anyways, um, if you could go back and start all over again, would you follow the same path or would you make different choices um in that in that publishing timeline until now?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

I would probably get better at ads early on when you could were able to do them more. I would get better at marketing because I'm really bad at that still. Um still like I don't, I mean, as you know, like I don't, you can't find me most places because I I'm not good at being like, hi, here I am, you know, uh, because that just is like super stressful. So um that's I think what I would change. I like I like having my own say about the book that I write. And I also like having an audio, because I'm like hybrid and that I have audio publishers and you know, like um, and that I like that because they get me really good narrators, like Julia Whalen did my first series.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:47

Oh, she's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Yeah, I listen to your audio books so yeah, she's one of the top, you know, narrators in like ever. And so like the fact that she read my first series is like that gets people to it, you know. So I I don't know that I'd be able to get the people that they get, you know, Luke Daniels and Terrace Plummer, and you know, like they're they're really good. So I think that that has worked out in my favor, even if it hasn't, you know, I make a hell of a lot less money on what's sold than than I would if I had done it myself. But um, but I think that that they also get it out there more than I do uh would. So um, but yeah, marketing in terms of like ebooks and ads and sort of like getting that going. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:32

Yeah. I'm with you. I think I didn't even think about that until you said it. But yeah, I would have learned how to do the marketing better um back then just because it it wasn't anything that we needed to worry about.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:46

Um, but otherwise I'm good. Like I I started with a a deal from a small publisher. It didn't go well, but I learned things from it. I had my agent, I got a four-book deal um for a new adult romance series. Um, and I learned stuff from that. Um and I did the self-publishing and learned stuff from that. So, and I think the biggest thing I learned from uh my time with the publisher, because what I had published through them was just a temporary like foul head at this new adult romance. It was like killing it. Um, but all of the editing advice I got from multiple going through a publisher, you have multiple editors, like different people with eyes on your books. And so that was a big help because I didn't have to pay for it. And I had so many people looking at my book and just different things. They would send me the document with the comments, and I was like, okay, I can look out for this, and I can, and I think I just really learned from that about it. Yeah, what to look for when I'm doing, you know, the first draft is garbage, and then after that it's going through. And so it really taught me how to look for things, but I'm very happy with my career past couple of years aside because I've been depressed and you know, but but uh how it's gone and I love having the control. I do. I I do my own covers too because I was just I'm such a control freak and it's fun. I taught myself Photoshop and Me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:29

I do my own covers and I just have like so much fun doing it. That's wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:34

Every now and then when I'm like, okay, I'm having like a day when I don't want to write, but I want to be on the computer, and I just create a random cover and I'm like, I'm gonna do something with this Monday.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

Yeah, and I I think we all need to appreciate the background of Kate's um video feed here. Yes, it's like all of us are just sitting in boring rooms. And for those of you listening, Kate is in a post-apocalyptic landscape. There are like zombies of the zombies.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:03

I can't tell who's there are zombies somewhere, and I was trying to figure out building so the zombies were closer when I was added. So yeah. Anyway, I don't do this very often, so I wasn't sure what to do, but I was like, I love zombies in the background.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

Yeah, I just got a boring old bulletin board behind me.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:23

Yeah, I don't do this much, so I was like, I should add an app uh background, that'll be really fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:28

I'm just gonna see I didn't want my riot gear. And this is our TBR beside the zombie.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:33

That's apocalyptic too, yeah. Well, without my background, it's my office and it's a bookshelves, and and I have um a Murphy bed because like my grandma stayed with us before she passed away. And so yeah, so this was where she stayed.

unknown 1:23:46

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:47

Joe, what about you?

unknown 1:23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:49

My background? Yeah, like or not your background. Sorry. No, sorry, just the like um if you could teleport this brain of today's brain into Joe Salazar's body a few years ago, would you follow the same journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:02

I think I absolutely would. I think starting out as a self-published author gave me so many lessons and experiences that I have been able to carry into the traditional publishing world. Um, there's such an expectation on authors today to, you know, build a following and do your own marketing. And I I have to say, Sourcebooks has been incredibly helpful in all of those things. But there is a component that you do have to do yourself. You do have to help build your audience. You can't depend on someone else to do that for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:39

And I've read that like in the last bunch of years of people saying like trad publishing used to be like part of the beauty of it was that like they were like going to bat for you, and now there's a lot more work, legwork you have to do yourself. Which I'm like, well, that's annoying.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

Like I mean, yeah. I mean, there are things happening in the background that I'll never know about. Um, they're you know, they're talking to libraries and they're talking about it. Sure, they send their books out to readers and yes, absolutely. All of that is happening, but in terms of you know being face to face with readers and engaging in the conversation and you know, uh connecting with people and posting a video and and book trailers and all of that does still fall on me. And I because I had to put myself out there early, I don't feel anxious about it anymore. And I think that now that I have a bigger audience because of being connected with my publisher, that that practice has been invaluable. And I'm really grateful that I had to hustle and you know scrape by. And uh I think it served me really well to be in this position now.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:58

Well, this is clear we do need the meetup because I have so many more questions for each of you. I I do

Where To Buy And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_04 1:26:03

want to end by saying one thing before I ask each of you what you'd like to promote right now, which I think I know at least what one of you is gonna say. But um is that when we first started this podcast, I really was like, I I think I told Dan, like, I'll watch some movies, but I'm not sure how many of these books I'm gonna read because I don't want to read these mighty whitey male power fantasy books. And like I love zombies, I love apocalypse genre, but like you can tell me about those ones. And it what didn't take very long to find you all. And I realized that that is actually there's a whole world of authors who were not writing that kind of zombie story, and just thank God for all of you or the universe, whatever you believe in. Um, because it's I it I do read the books now. I was like, I if you listen to the early episodes, we're like, will we even find anybody? And I told um to the audience I'm not gonna read it. And so just really glad that you're out there and you're doing it and you believed in yourselves, and also um that you talk to us, lucky us. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:05

Lucky us. Yeah. Um bringing us to people and just, you know, and just talking about like different books than what another zombie um podcast or whoever might be, you know, discussing.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:21

So yeah, yeah, I mean, we went back and forth the f before I came on the first time, and I was so terrified because I I'm just I don't like hearing myself talk. I don't yeah, it that's there's a reason to write I write books. But um it was so good. And I think I did your podcast and another one that was about my deconstruction journey journey uh within like a few weeks of each other, and then I was like, Oh, this is actually kind of fun. Yeah, let's I'll do this again. So yeah, I think you were that I still got some anxiety before this, like I still was anxious, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:57

Yeah, me too. But at the same time, I sort of feel like this is my third one. I'm like, all right, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:03

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:06

I'm back any time now.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

You know, because I did a few podcasts before this and they were like so stressful. And like I don't even remember who they are. And I think I blocked it out and I never want to hear them. So everybody needs to like do not send them to me if you find them somebody because I don't want no. But um but yeah like this isn't that this is it's like a really nice space to be in.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

So to yeah that's my that's our tagline now.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:36

I didn't mean to turn this into a love fest but I kind of love it. Thank you so much. We are truly the lucky ones. But Joe, tell us a little bit tell the audience for those folks who have uh are still learning about you where to find and pre-order your book because they can still pre-order it if they listen to this on the day it's released.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

Yes. So if we survive the night formerly the dead weight comes out on August 25th 2026 and you can pre-order it from a number of places. Right now if you pre-order from our town books which is linked in my Instagram or TikTok bio you can get your book signed and personalized by me. Yeah so there are some other places that you can order all major retailers are are you know gonna have the option to buy it uh but there is one special place that you can buy it. Um there will be a Walmart special edition and it's got a unique colorway like we we talked about. That one has the extra bonus chapter so if you wanted to um get that bonus feature go to Walmart. You should do both yeah you should yeah it would be I would love it if you would do both also you know request it from your library like if that's you know not in your budget right now um I it's it's also going to be on audio books so if you wanted to if you wanted to uh go about it that way um that would be great too.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:01

Yeah I'm a I'm a I'm a huge audio fan now I used to I hated like I don't know even five years ago six years ago I was like never you know I just couldn't like I could and now I'm like audio yes it has a word I can do so many things while I'm reading a book. And and you know when I'm reading a book like when I'm reading something that's like words now I will then get up and I have to go do something because life, you know, and and and I totally will start to like raise my finger to my ear to tap my airpod or my head on to be because I want the story to keep happening and I'm like idiot no how do I get the words to come it's like I just keep my hands keep coming up and like the words and no and we're reading them and like and that it's that just shows me how much like I both of them are reading to me listening and the words like because because my brain is just it's it's synthes like synthesizing them or whatever the same way now that the fact that like something I'm reading with my eyes I'm trying to tap into my ear later, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:04

So yeah yeah I hate that there's always like this debate on social media of whether or not audiobooks are reading and I'm like yes they are because everybody processes processes information differently and also different times of your life you need different things. So yeah. Yeah I've had a really hard time reading a book with my eyes while mowing the lawn so yeah yeah yeah I'm crazy right like sometimes when I'm driving I just pull out my book and then I crash and it's crazy my grandma did that.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:37

She denies it but I caught my grandma doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:40

Okay and Sarah where can people find their audiobooks or written books for you two as well? Because what I would suggest to the audience is to get at least yeah one of each if you haven't read or whoever you haven't read yet you should pick it up and you should compare contrast learn from these fabulous authors.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:55

Where can they find you pay you so Amazon for all my books since I'm in Kindle Unlimited um which you know would be nice if one day they would allow us to have a book someplace else.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:05

But that'd be nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:06

Or no they don't um and um Audible for um audiobooks although I am should probably know this but I believe that my at least my my first series and my current series are on other platforms now too but Audible the City series was produced by Audible Studios so obviously they're not going to go put that any place else. Yeah. So um bummer yeah but but podium is my first and my last they're my publisher for those so though and I'm pretty sure they stopped being Audible exclusive recently so also I'm gonna share a secret for Sarah because you say you're not on social media but there is a lovely human being named Elm Juniper who manages your Facebook group.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:52

So people can indeed find at least Elm and others chatting about your books.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:57

Oh yes and they and I and I do pop in there sometimes and I used to be really active in there and then as I just sort of got more anxious about like social media I sort of ran away and like me. And when I come back people are like hey I'm sorry so I'm sorry all Facebook people who I know that yeah I suck. Anyway but yeah um something you don't suck because they love you. And I and I do try to come there. Um so yeah and it's a great group it's full of really I mean that's that's the worst thing is like it's not that's not the worst thing it's a great thing that is full of great people but the worst thing is that like I still can't bring myself to to to do that a lot of the time. So um but but yeah I do appreciate all those people being there and they're such a lovely group of humans.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:48

So yeah I'm the same as Sarah uh most of my books are on Kindle Unlimited well yes all of them are on Kindle Unlimited except I have three free ones which right now I I alternate them um Outliers and um Moonchild are free and When We Were Human which was one of my first books and the first one I won a couple of awards for and it's young adult and it's been out for so long I just put it for free just because I was like I love this book and I felt like it was a lot of growth for me as an author when I wrote that that I was like it's not selling a lot so I'll just put it for free for people just because it's such a good book. And then everything's on Audible and um yeah my Broken World series is through Tanter. So that is on places other than Audible as well. So basically wherever you're gonna get audiobooks.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:44

And uh and I'm selling loose leaf paper versions out of the back of my truck at the nearest uh park and ride near how can I buy one we want I'm only there on Tuesdays bring cash no refunds well thanks everybody reader here oh yeah definitely it's it's coming it's coming it's coming soon all right I have I have news I'll tell you I cannot wait but thanks thanks everybody for for coming for the inline it was so good to see everybody in person and Joe congratulations thank you so much it was such a gift for you to be here I can't believe this happened thank you so much for being here I I'm still blown away and uh I will have links in the description for everything that we just said in the last 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:41

Um and uh thanks everybody for listening and uh I don't know do we have an outro the end is nigh baby don't die. That's right we do have an outro bye everyone it's great