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Zombie Book Club
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Zombie Book Club
'The Twelfth House' with special guest Robert de la Chevotière | Zombie Book Club Ep. 157
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We sit down with Robert de la Chevotière ahead of the August 25, 2026 release of his novel The Twelfth House; a literary work steeped in West African folklore and magical realism. At its center is Etta, an ogbanje: a spirit trapped in an endless cycle of death and rebirth, whose desperate will to live pulls her father Bako from the coast of Benin onto a slave ship bound for colonial Dominica. We talk with Robert about writing unflinchingly about slavery while still leaving room for lyricism and beauty; about the mountains, forests, and ancestral ocean that act as living characters in the book, and about villains who are complicated rather than simply "evil."
Robert discusses teaching middle school after burnout, and what it meant for Robert to feel like Etta "took the pen" from him mid-draft. Along the way we dig into reincarnation as a metaphor for diaspora, the dedication to Wai'tukubuli (the Kalinago name for Dominica), and the uneasy line between allyship and complicity. It's a conversation about memory, resistance, and what we owe the dead.
Guest Contact & Social Media
- Author website: robdelabooks.com
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robdelawrites/
- Preorder 'The Twelfth House' (Before August 25th, 2026): https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-twelfth-house-robert-de-la-chevotiere/1149880270?ean=9781645662037
- Audible author page: https://www.audible.com/author/Robert-de-la-Chevotiere/B0F1MYKPNP
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Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_04Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is about a screaming unborn/slash undead baby who stole the author's pen. I'm Dan, and when I'm out looking for my pen, it's always the last place you look. I'm writing a book that I have news about, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Leah, and today we are honored to be talking with Robert de la Chevalier about his forthcoming book, The Twelfth House, coming out August 25th, 2026. So around the corner, Robert is a proud pancer who has authored three novels so far. His work explores varied forms of black resistance as examined through family, history, and colonial influence. And when he's not teaching middle school by day, he is writing beautiful lyrical books that have been shortlisted for a number of prizes, like the OCM Bocus Prize for Caribbean Literature, the Dartmouth Book Award, and the Thomas Radall Atlantic Book Award for Fiction. Originally from the Caribbean, he now resides in Nova Scotia. Hey, fellow Canadian besties. Glad to always have a Canadian on the show. Welcome, Rob. How are you doing today? Thank you so much for this lovely introduction.
SPEAKER_03And I am doing quite well. Thank you, thank you, thank
Middle School Teaching And Burnout
SPEAKER_03you.
SPEAKER_04Uh a uh a middle school teacher sounds to me, you know, in in my in my opinion, sounds awful. Um but that but I'm also kind of remembering like where I grew up in school and how the people that I grew up with treated teachers and the environment around them. What what's what's it like for you where it were your teacher?
SPEAKER_03I'll tell you what. So I was teaching high school for the last 17 years, and I took uh a year off because I I was burnt out, and I went back and I said, I'll try middle school for one year, and I do not regret it. Um, it's they are just such lovely little beings, and they love you, and they you know, it's just it's such a different feel, different vibe. And man, I I am not going back to high school. I I decided, you know what, as long as they want me here, I'm gonna stay where I am. And it's just been a blessing. I the day starts easy, there's no parents down my road and on my back for marks and grades and university and all this other nonsense. It's just here's my child. Can you just educate him? Teach him some French. Is that what you teach, Rob? Yes, yes, yeah. So it's just yeah, French and social studies. But I mean, um, yeah, it's it's been great. It's been great. It's been absolutely great. Yeah, no regrets.
SPEAKER_01That's why you're called to be a teacher, because so many people um, I don't think could do that job and love it the way that you do, including my dad, who was a teacher. And uh the last like four or five years of teaching, he had a calendar, like a whiteboard calendar where he would write down how many days were left before he was retired. He was over it.
SPEAKER_03You know what? It's a lot of us, that's that's that's the reality of teaching right now, especially you know, when they're near retirement, it's just it's so there's so much coming at teachers, right? And the older generation is they just can't keep up with it. It's like, why, why, why this paper, why this new internet type of technology? Why? Just and it it's I I feel for them because it's hard. It's it's much harder. Yeah. So I I I empathize with with your dad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's very sweet. I I appreciate that. But I'm glad you're out there doing the good work of teaching the youngins because we need as amazing uh as many amazing people growing into adulthood now than ever before. And your job is not an easy one.
Waiting For The Book To Drop
SPEAKER_01But it's summertime, off um, and you are in that weird liminal in-between space of like not teaching, you've finished a book, but the book's not released yet. What's it like to be in this in-between time?
SPEAKER_03It's like a zombie, man. I'm just like, what am I doing today?
SPEAKER_04You just wander with your arms out in front of you.
SPEAKER_03Hoping you bump into food. What am I doing? Uh no, the the uh the rest has been good, but um I have a 12-year-old who is um playing soccer, and his coach um had to quit. So I had to step up. So that's keeping me occupied. So after this, I have to rush out there and go go coach. But um, you know, like there's there's things that I that keeps me busy. Um there's the big old chocolate lab that just always wants to do something. So we go for long walks, sometimes two hours, and come back. And, you know, so yeah, it's it's um keeping healthy.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Asking for a friend slash my husband, what is it like um like mentally to be in that space where you're waiting for your book to come out?
SPEAKER_03Oh, well, you know what? I'm used to it now, right? Um, the first time around, it was really, really hard because um the arcs were out, you know, all over Twitter or the old whatever I use eat name more, but um uh Instagram, and it was just always everywhere. And I'm just you're just waiting, you're waiting, and you're waiting, and you know, you you're reading every um review, NetGalley. Um, what's the other one? Um, Goodreads. Um yeah, and some are good, some not so good, but it's just and then you start doubting yourself. Oh man, is this did I do a good job? Did I but then you know it comes out, and people so right now for me, I'm just I'm being actually quite patient. Um I don't really having been through it for me, it's more like just take it easy and just you know, just I wish I had had this kind of stuff my first two. Um, I didn't. Um it's it's like you contact so many people and so many radio stations or news, and yes, yes, and then this doesn't happen. And you know, so I'm just excited, happy, pleased that before the book actually comes out, I am actually talking to people about it, right? So yeah. Same.
SPEAKER_01Well, we count ourselves lucky that you're talking with us because I really, really enjoyed uh the 12th house. It was nothing like what I expected, but I don't think I knew what to expect in the best ways. And we'll get we'll get into that in a little bit.
Audiobooks Reading Slumps And Influence
SPEAKER_01But before we do, uh you mentioned in your email, is I don't know if you have it as like a sign-off all the time, but in the most recent email from you, it said you're currently reading Parable of the Sower. Are you still reading that or are you done?
SPEAKER_03I I I I had to put that one down. Um I I've tried to read that one twice already. Um, well, yeah, twice now. And maybe it's the audiobook that I just can't get past. So I will try again, but this time with the actual uh physical novel. Um because there are parts of it that really intrigue me, but then I just find myself just I can't follow. I can't, right? Um, and I've had that experience before with other books. Sometimes it's just sometimes it's the reader, sometimes it's just not something you can listen to, right? So, and I do like to Butler, so I am going to go back and for sure try and um uh finish that book. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01It's one of my faves, and we kept taking talking about whether or not we'll ever talk about it on the podcast. So if you finish it, maybe you can come and chat with us about it.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Okay. We've noticed that about a few audiobooks that like sometimes either it's the audiobook or it's just something that's hard to put your finger on. Like it's it's hard to sometimes just stay engaged or stay stay connected with the story.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's yeah. Because when I read Kindred, I just I was like, okay, what's next? Give me something, right? And it just wasn't working for me. So but I know for sure that I will definitely read it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um uh so I read a little bit of the uh the story that you posted on your website about uh the first time that you remember writing something that people enjoyed, which was like I think you said it was the sixth grade. Did you know that did you always know that you wanted to be a writer?
SPEAKER_03I don't even thought I always knew, but there was always something in me that said, yeah, you could you could be a writer, right? Um I had that little inclination. Um and also at that age, um, you do something that's good or the teachers like it. And uh I remember thinking, well, that was from Sunday school. We talked about the land flowing with milk and honey, and all I did was take that and put that in my story, and that's not even original, right? And it was a grown man, grown man writing, and how much of that do I do every day? I listen to many snippets and just take and reshape and reform, right? So I think back then it was just uh, if only they knew the reality of what I did, right? Right, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, right? And that's how many of us, that's how we plant seeds or we we we take from it. So um, and also in junior high and high school, I had a couple of teachers that were encouraging me to write. Um, and whenever we did um stuff like um creative writing, they would always be just in awe of what I did. And I was like, okay, but to me it was just all right. And I never actually thought of myself like that, right? But the idea that, yeah, I could possibly do this, that that was always there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's also it's it's uh it's very true how like the young the young mind when you're getting into something creative, I think because you haven't seen a whole lot of things yet, you tend to think that every everything that's made has to be original for it to be important. So like if if you if you write a story like in your case where you kind of took some words from something that you heard in in uh in in church, it's like that that's that that doesn't count. That's not real. I'm a thief. But uh, but you know, like uh for me, I feel like it was like listening to like Quentin Tarantino talk about how he made movies where he's just like, Yeah, I steal, I steal from other movies all the time. I just everything is an homage to something else. Like I there's nothing original in there.
unknownYeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, even ourselves, you know, a lot of the time I like to be like, I'm not my mother, I'm not my father, I'm this separate individual. And I think this this leads into your book a little bit. But in actuality, I'm like a reconstitution of billions of years of life forms. Um, and it just happened to be in this particular shape. But you can see some reference points if you look at my family line. I'm not uh not an original, I'm just a variation.
SPEAKER_03That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. That's very interesting to say.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. That means a lot from someone like you. I'll take it. So we're gonna ask you the hardest question of this interview.
What The Twelfth House Explores
SPEAKER_01Are you ready? Sure. What is the 12th house about? And how do you answer how on earth do you answer a question like that when you put your heart and soul into a book?
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. I used to despise that question for any book. What's your book about? Um, and I've come to the conclusion that you know what, you wrote the book. Talk about this. Right? Um, and I I think basically it's when we think about um uh life itself, right? And we think about what matters, and we think about our past, our present, and where we're heading, like our future. Um what a path right is taken? What are the roots from from whence we we come? Um, where are we going? And then you know, it's a matter of thinking about the influence of all these things and how it is uh it shapes who we are. Um and I I say that because when I think of the 12th house and I think of the main character, um we have this voice, right? We have this uh uh narrator who is essentially a ghost, right? Which becomes a person, right? And it's like, okay, this how does that work? Right? Is there validity there? And um in writing, I find it's just so beautiful to be able to just write whatever you want, right? Um, to just explore whatever form you want. Um, and I say that too because I never thought of myself as a sci-fi or speculative or horror writer. Um, I'm always in that vein of uh literary fiction. But when I wrote my first book, and there's this child, this you know, that can see the dead, and it's just oh, there is so much more I can do with this, right? An entire new world just opens right up. So for me, writing Etta, um, it was just okay, I can take this wherever I want. So what I'm trying to say is um the story itself uh is is just on a micro level, it is um um a subversive um attempt at uh dealing with imperialism or colonial life, right? Um but if we go and talk about the actual, you know, the story itself, so we have this young girl who is basically what we call an ubanje. And um, so in West African um folklore, um she she dies over and over in the mother's womb, right? And um so whenever a woman has a miscarriage, they consider that baby an ubanje. So this particular ubanje has uh um decides that you know what? No, I have to live, right? There's no reason why my brother gets to be born and celebrated, and me, I don't live. So she decides, you know what? I am going to will my father into birthing me, into uh finding a wife and birthing me. And um, that is where the the story um uh evolves. So from Africa across the Atlantic to Dominica, and that's where eventually she's born. And yeah, that's I'm not sure if I finished.
SPEAKER_01I think that's perfect because that there's always a balance that I find challenging when we talk with authors about their books, which is like enough talking enough about it that folks can understand what it's about and not telling them everything because I want them to go read it so I can tell. I want you to read this book, listeners, so we can talk about it. Basically what I'm saying when it comes out.
Etta Ogbanje And Black Girl Worth
SPEAKER_01Uh, in your you in the beginning of your book, you have a letter to the reader, and you describe Etta as uh you say she's all the magic in the universe. That I is probably one of those beautiful things you could say about anybody. Why is Etta all the magic in the universe to you?
SPEAKER_03She's a black child, a black girl. You know, I find um in this day and age, like black girls, especially, black women, they're they're so downtrodden. Um, and I'll give you an example, just when I taught high school, especially. Um, like black boys, for the most part, socially, they're fine, right? And I think of this especially like prom, right? That that time, right? They get all the dates. Everybody wants to, you know, yeah. And the black girls, you see them by themselves going to prom, right? Um, and that's just like one example, but it's it's it's a reflection of what is happening in society, right? Um yes, they're accepted, but they're not valued, right? You know, nobody's asking some of these black girls to prom. Nobody is is reaching out, and and I mean, that's these friendships that stay at school, right? Outside of school, those friendships don't exist. Um and having a daughter, you know, like I, oh my gosh, man, she's the light-skinned black girl that is the most black girl. Because I, it was my intent to say, you know what? You're beautiful and you're worthy, and you are all those things that society um may not think that you are, but forget about that, right? So Ada for me was that that that that magic. She is um, yeah, 100%. She is the one that is going to spur rebellions, the one that's going to save the world, save the universe, save whatever it is. But she has to be that that that um individual.
SPEAKER_01That's really powerful. Um, so much of what we have in the United States is on the backs of black women. And I and and sadly, like truly, because I've lived in the States for 16 years, I so know so much less about the history in Canada. Um, but I've certainly witnessed that here. And it's that's a beautiful tribute. I I'm curious when Eda was born for you. When did Eda appear in your world?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was an adult, I think, you know. Um and you know what I'll say when I started teaching um is when I I I saw Eda. Um, because when you're young, life you don't you don't see some of the stuff, right? Um and even through education, and you go to university and you take certain courses and you talk about stuff, and it's also theoretical. And yes, yes, it makes sense. And yeah, blah, blah. Yeah. But the life experience of seeing um the child uh is a big difference. Um that was a game changer for me. Um it's the same as um, you know, gay youth and trans youth. Um I never understood how hard their life was until I started to teach them. Because, you know, some of these kids, they some don't even live at home. You know, some they they come to school and then they change their persona. They actually put on their makeup or take off their whatever it is, right? It's like finally I get to be free, be myself. Um and then there's the the the drug abuse that that comes along with it. It's like it's all these things that I as a grown man didn't really see until I went in the trenches of the education system. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I've always I've always I mean I I've I've thought a lot about like my my time in in school and like the the middle school and high school experience is such an interesting thing to like really think deeply about because there's just so much of our society is is on display with younger people that haven't really learned about it yet. Like they're still showing it, but they they're not full they're not at a point of understanding yet. And especially when it comes to you know, people that uh you know usually have to either you know silence their voice or to hide. You know, sometimes sometimes they're hiding when they're at school, sometimes they're hiding when they're at home. Um and sometimes they're hiding in both places. Absolutely.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01This brings so much meaning to me of of Edda being an Obanji because of like literally not like that will to be born, but but not being able to be born sounds a lot like what I mean. I will speak for myself. I experienced as a queer young child, like um, like you know there's something in there. I don't know what else to explain it, but it's not per it's not permitted to be present, it's not permitted to be alive, and I have no idea what was behind Eta, it just gives it even more beauty.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um yeah, and uh it's that not knowing, right? You talk about you there's something in there, but you don't know what, right? And if you think of the other kids who are looking at you like, something wrong with you, something up with you, right? You know? Yeah. Um, but also to their, you know, they're also kids, right? So it's that balancing act as well that you have to educate both sides and you have to be patient with with the others as well. And um, yeah, so it's I know I say I love middle school, I love, you know, but it's it it's hard work, right? Because it's not just the education part, like just uh, oh, let me teach you how to write in French or speak the language. It's just they they They become your children, essentially. Right. So yeah.
Tradition Denial And The Evil Forest
SPEAKER_01It makes me think about the role of tradition in your story. And you know, what traditions at one point you asked, like, what traditions should be kept and what traditions do we change? Um and thinking about in the context of being a middle school kid, like like you said, Dan, there at that stage you've been given some cultural scripts, whether they're good, bad, ugly, given some traditions. And then how do how do we decide what is good tradition or what what tradition should be moved past from? Why did you want to explore that in this story?
SPEAKER_03You know what? That one it just came so organically. I didn't even think about, oh, maybe I should talk about this. It's just it's just the way that it happened. And um for me, when I went back and I did the because the evil forest, that chapter, um that was a late edition. Uh so I went back and I I inserted the the backstory or the origin story of the of the evil forest. And that one opened up a whole bunch of stuff, right? Um, and um thinking about tradition, thinking about um, you know, just how we exist in this world and um how how we move. Because I find today, if we look at the world today, there are so many things that we can turn a blind eye to, which we actually do, right? If we look even in the Middle East right now, like so many of us are like just, oh, what is happening? That's not happening. And is you know, but I'm sorry, there's something happening, right? Um, is it in our tradition to say, nah, this particular event we're not really seeing, right? Or what exactly is it that we choose not to see, right? And I think you know, tradition sometimes is not necessarily uh from a long-standing grandfather clause or whatever. It is sometimes just us in the day deciding how we move, right? What we respect, what we don't. Um and I say that particularly because so much of tradition generally, um, we don't even care about. We don't even think about it half the time, right? Until there is something that impacts us in a certain way, and we decide actually, in our tradition, we don't do this or we do that, or you know, we might bring in the Bible, or we might bring in whichever, right? So yeah, I I found when I went to do the origin story of um the evil forest, that yeah, it opened up a lot for me and I was able to dive into it some more.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think sometimes tradition, uh like like leaning on tradition in those times that you're kind of discussing where it's like, you know, you you you hit a point where you have to confront how you approach something, and then you're like, well, tradition, and it's tradition is is comfort. Um it can be a guiding force if your tradition says that you should do something to help somebody, but sometimes it's it's uh easier to see things the way that you want to see them and avoid taking responsibility for somebody else if you're just like, well, tradition. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Ocean Water And The African Thread
SPEAKER_01One of the traditions that's really important in your story is the choice for um Ivan. Is it Baco or Bako? Because that was another one where I was reading it in Baco, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh Edda's father decides to bring her down off the mountain where he's safe as part of a free group of people community away from um the person who had enslaved him, William Blackwell, and risk all of the possibility of recapture for him and his daughter to bathe her in the water in the ocean. Um, what what made that the the tradition worth keeping, do you think, in that moment? What does that story tell?
SPEAKER_03Uh, I think for me, I really wanted the connection with the water, right? Because if we think of water, it connects us in every single way, right? Um, on one hand, we say um that all the water that there is in the world that has ever existed is here right now, right? So we're drinking water that you know people back in ancient Babylon drank, right? It's the same water. At the same time, if you go swim in the Atlantic, that water has been everywhere, has touched every continent, has you know, you know what I mean? So for me, it was just, and I forget how I came up with this, you know, but um it was just so important that Ada be in the water that connected her back to and physically to Africa, right? And that connected her to anywhere else she chose to go in the universe. Um, and that's why I I chose that. Um, I don't know if I made it clear or maybe I didn't. And maybe I should have, you know, talked more about that connection. I guess I would say I I felt it, but I wanted you to speak to it. Yeah, okay, all right, yeah. But thank you. Um but uh yeah, that is what I was aiming for. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's what's really beautiful. And you write you write in the story about the connection to all people and all the places. Um when was the last time you read your book, sir? Just kidding. I just read it, so this stuff is very fresh for me.
SPEAKER_04Uh but also it's important to allow the the reader to make their own connection. So like you can spell it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, but you know, some people will get it and some people won't. And for the people who do get it, they've they put together a puzzle and they've pulled, they've taken away something important and they've they've found it themselves.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02That's that's true.
SPEAKER_04That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Brutality Beauty And Writing Truth
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think it was it was clear for me in the way that you wrote it, but also that you have this ability as a writer to which I've I'm trying to think of other examples of writers that I've felt have done this. I'm sure they exist, but right now you're the only one I can think of, Robert, which is like you had some of the most brutal scenes, brutal and true scenes of the reality of uh slavery in Dominica. And at the same time, you had some of the most beautiful scenes, and there was so much um, it kind of felt sometimes like you're like, here's this horrifying thing that like we all know in history has happened, but you are painting a picture that like makes it so visceral that I'm experiencing it live. And then you're giving me beauty. And I don't know if that's a conscious choice, but it kind of felt like sometimes you're like, like the voice of the author in my brain was like, it's okay. We know it's hard out here, but also it's beautiful, right? And it's worth it. And I don't know if that was conscious or not, but that is how I experience your writing.
SPEAKER_03Um well, thanks. Uh that's a hard one to answer because I think um I try my best to write truthfully, right? So if I'm seeing something and I feel it should be depicted in a certain way, I will write it that way, right? So um violence, and depending on the type of violence, there are some things I'll never write, okay? Like maybe sexual assault, I'll never go through that, right? Um, but such a violence, especially in terms of history, in terms of um slavery, um, the things that happened during um it happened, and there are countless uh records of it. Um just the other day I was on Instagram and a name popped up, and I should have written it down, but if he was uh a slave owner in, I think, Jamaica, and he just talked about, or the person talked about all the ways that this man was just so disgustingly brutal with his uh his slaves and the things that he did. And I was thinking, oh my gosh, I would have maybe two or three things that you know happened, but there is a reality to it, right? Like black folk experienced such evil, right, at the hands of these slave owners. Um, so yes, I can write about that because it it happened. And, you know, but at the same time, I am a poet. I I I like to write beautiful words and sentences, I love to connect dots, I like to, you know, metaphors, like that's my thing, you know, finding new ways to explore them. Um, it's always a challenge, but I try. So yeah, I I I wouldn't say it's a conscious thing, but it's just part of who I am as a writer. And it's just what I do. And I'm gonna write it beautifully, but also be very truthful about it.
SPEAKER_04I think that's um really important to the human experience. Like I think there are people who can only see the ugly. Um, and uh I don't know what that says about them. Um, but you know, I've I've seen I've seen some pretty ugly things. But then I've also in the same you know, span of a couple days, you know, miles away uh seen some of the most beautiful things. And um it always reminded me to try to be my best self because even in a world full of really ugly and hateful things, uh, there's things still worth being good for. Absolutely.
Records Memory And Owning The Past
SPEAKER_04And um I'm kinda I'm like kind of going backwards through my memory, thinking of uh what you what you were just talking about. And it made me think about um how you're writing about the ledger uh that they find, and they're discussing about whether or not to destroy it. Um and the ledger tells, you know, every every enslaved person that this person owned, every punishment and and so on and so forth. And um, you know, I think about like now, where there's so many people willing to just bury the past, pretend it never happened. It never happened, yeah. Or retell it in a different way. Yeah. And um I I'm I might be remembering it incorrectly, but I I feel like the argument was like whether to destroy it in order to hurt the slave owner by destroying his records, or you know, destroying this thing that is like uh a memory that's really harmful and painful to remember, and keeping it to prove that it existed. And like I'm glad that those records exist from you know two, three, four hundred years ago, because it's all that's left in a world where people are actively trying to make it disappear.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah. Thank you, Dan. That's that's um, yeah, that's exactly it.
unknownYeah.
Hell Evil And The Ally Problem
SPEAKER_01Um something I wanted to touch on that I feel like is a good moment based on what we've been talking about is the idea of evil and hell. Those were also themes that I saw uh throughout your story of like who defines hell? Who defines what is evil, um, who gets to make those decisions and what impact that has in the world? Was that something that you were intentionally playing with, or how did that how what is what is hell, Robert? I'm gonna ask you the most basic. What is what is it? And who gets to decide?
SPEAKER_04You've been to Sunday school.
SPEAKER_01Because it's used to justify a lot of different things. Yeah. Um, again, uh, I'm a panther, so I don't plan this. So this just like comes out of you, and then you start to play with it?
SPEAKER_03It it comes out, and then I just say, okay, I love this. Where am I where are we going? Right? But I mean, I have an idea of what I always think hell is, right? Based on, you know, I mean, I grew up in the church, right? Um, do I subscribe to church? Um I have uh myself and church and and God, we have uh it's it's it's not a linear type of I don't know, understanding, right? It's it's always it's hard to just say no and it's hard to just accept, right? Um but if we talk about hell, um what was it, that book? Uh I think Animal Farm. You guys ever read that? Yeah. Um and talking about um, I think it was Squealer saying, Some of us are we're all equal, but some of us are more equal than others, right? And you know, and you have some of these pigs, right, who are living the high life, man. They're they're in in heaven, pretty much, right? But what they're saying to basically the all other animals is you work hard, right? And then when you die, right, you'll go to Sugar Mountain, and then you have you eat all the sugar in the world that you want. Okay. Meanwhile, that's what they're doing. Okay. So are they in heaven already? So if they're already in heaven, so where the hell is hell? Hell must be right now, right? So I I look at it like that. I look at it as, you know what, um it's it's a matter of your relationship with society and and and how um the influence or the impact on you, right? Um I don't think it's necessarily a place, right? I think it's it's the moment. I think I think it's um the consequence of others not not being socialist enough in their way of helping others. Um yeah, if that makes sense at all. I don't know. I talk too much.
SPEAKER_01No, you talked just you're supposed to talk. That's why we want you here. Um yeah, I don't know if you heard that our our orange person, uh, who's ruined the color orange for me because it's my favorite, uh recently posted on whatever platform that he wants to make the democratic socialists of America all considered terrorists and um Oh yes, yeah. So that's his evil, right? And like who gets to dis again, who gets to decide and what impact that does it have? And William Blackwell, the main uh enslaver that we get to meet, although we meet a lot of his really messed up family too. Uh um, I think is it him who specifically says? Yeah, I think he says, like, there's uh this is a quote I have written down. I would say there's no price one can pay for rescuing these savages from that African hell. Right. And like repeatedly there are moments where like that is the justification, we're saving them. And then you have, is it Al Din? These are one other names that I'm like not sure. Aldine, Al Din. Al Din Brown. Al Dean Brown, yeah. Tell me about Al Dean Brown and and how he emerged, because I thought he was an interesting character as a contrast, but also maybe still complicit in slavery. I was trying to kind of unpack who this guy was, and he said he he said he was against slavery, but also kind of was benefiting from it, just like one step removed. So tell me about him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, he's an interesting character because um, as much as he's not an enslaver, you know, he's still a white Englishman from England who moved to Dominica for what? To take advantage of uh of what's there, right? Um to build supposedly the country, but really it's it's his it's his own wealth. Um and I think there's, you know, in society now, there's always that person, right? Um they may say that, oh, they're allies to this, but are they really, right? There's always uh uh a benefit to them. Um that that's not you know uh authentic in the sense of uh allyship. Um and I think you know that's what he is. That's who he is. Not necessarily a bad person, but he's like the bystander, right? That watches everything unfold and says, Oh wow, you shouldn't have done that, but is he doing anything about it? No. He's still friends with William. He's still friends with William, exactly.
SPEAKER_01William's still shopping at his store that he set up in Donica. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting because some of you have varying degrees of complexity with the eve with what I think are the true evil characters, William Blackwell being one of them. Um, Margaret is another one that was a fun surprise as like the white woman character who I won't say what happens and what she does because I think that is a spoiler. Um but I appreciated your like bringing in the complexity of her position as a white woman, of lacking power and agency in some places, but also very much playing into and perpetuating um slavery. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she was um a pleasant surprise, right? Because I didn't see it coming out there, but then she was one also that I went back and I wrote their origin story. And um that surprised me how it all came about. And I was pretty pleased with that particular chapter, I have to say. Um and like you say, you know, the white, or should I say the white woman, right? Because, you know, we talk about in society just just you know, white men um as being, you know, the the patriarchy that does which whatever. Um, but also sometimes we never really consider the white woman and and and their role as well. Um yeah, so it was interesting for me to actually work on her. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, her chapter was a very interesting surprise, I won't say more. That's when you gotta read people. Um you also like, even though Edda is sort of the narrator, and uh you can read the back of the jacket cover, you can listen to this interview, so you know that Edda is starts off as a spirit, um, but they're narrating and they're sort of like watching their father move through these different moments. At the same time, you actually you really feature a number of enslaved people from all different experiences and across time. What made you make that choice?
SPEAKER_03Um I had to go back right to my first experience when I realized that, oh, there was slavery? Oh, um what's happening? What is you know, and I think I was maybe 11, 10, and um that's when uh Roots first came out, right? And um when I think of uh I forget his name now. Um Lavar Burton. Sorry? No, no, sorry, in the book, in the book. Uh never mind. I thought we were talking about Roots. One of the characters, um, he was like, okay, well, let's say in the in the in the the the film, uh Chicken George, right? So um uh um I was thinking about that character when I wrote um what's his name? The one without the tongue that got the tongue cut off.
SPEAKER_01Uh Malachi, not Malachi, um Jeremiah?
SPEAKER_03Jeremiah, Jeremiah, right? So I was thinking about Chicken George, and and but you know, it's all so he was that slave that was already on the plantation, right? But also there are new slaves that are brought in. So um I I was just going backwards and just thinking, you know, what do I really remember? You know, how can I uh as a person who's learning about slavery for the very, very first time, you know, this is my first introduction to slavery. What can I recall? Right. And I I went from there, almost like a little innocence project, right? Just just, you know, and then I found that I was able to very um to piece things together on a very like elementary level. And then I dug deeper into it.
SPEAKER_01I think it helped bring a lot of life to the full picture of what like it placed me in the space with the people and seeing their interactions and dynamics. Um, Medicine John's one of my favorites, that character. Um, but also his relationship to the pigs was really interesting to me. Like another um like his responsibility for them, but then also knowing that he was as disposable as the pigs ultimately, even with his his uh special abilities or skills, I should say. Because I don't want to imply that medicine, actually, I'll let you describe. Sorry, I'm like just talking, I'm babbling because I'm excited. Can you tell me? Oh great, like medicine, everybody, medicine John is because I'm just thinking about how you framed it. He's not a medicine man in the sense of like, woo-woo, uh, he waves a magic wand or anything. He is well versed in plants. Um, but that was something that needed to be defined and clarified because if he was something else, something magical like Edda, there's danger there, maybe. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, possibly. I mean, I could have possibly looked at that, maybe. I don't know. But um no, um I I I enjoyed writing uh Madison John. Um again, he was one of those origin stories I had to go back and do. Um, and it it just worked so so so well. Um but for me, the fact that he was, you know, off the island, right? And knew uh you know, the the the plants and you what to use to heal or or whichever, right? It just I think it's just so important that nature is always um uh that that we respect nature when we're writing right like the environment for me is just just so in important um I I think you know we come from it right um and uh me as a writer I would never want to just ignore it um and that was I think my chance of actually or my opportunity to say okay here it is right like Eda is a different kind of nature but Medicine John here he has all these um this this knowledge that he can impart yeah it's a good point that Eda is a part of nature too and it felt like nature was its own uh characters like the tamarind tree coming up again and again and uh just trees in general like describing Bako in the beginning as a ba a baobab tree um the they held character the evil forest was a character in its own way um maybe a misunderstood character but a character the ocean is a character so that really showed up in your writing absolutely yeah it maybe there was a question I wanted to ask you um because I was thinking when I was listening because I would listen to it actually with natural reader because that's how I digest books better is auditorily which by the way even with a random voice it was really a great like read listen just so you know um even though it would constantly say agape when you wrote a gape sidebar that maybe it's a little bit of a humor relief in the moment.
SPEAKER_04You know I actually pronounced that word like that for a very very very long time. I'm pretty sure I said it out loud once and nobody knew what I was talking about. I'm like yeah you know my mouth was agape.
SPEAKER_01That's why interests any of my pronunciations like all dynamics because I'm like I this is not this is you know this is an accessibility tool for
Queen Mother Nature And Women Voices
SPEAKER_01me. But anyway I was really interested in the concept of the queen mother which felt very much like a representation of nature and I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah so the queen mother when I researched it um uh in West and West Africa um there is this idea of the idea right this this queen mother this uh mystic this this person who entity who who you know um protects everybody right um so I I I I took that and I I crossed the water with it right um like I I saw it come up again among the indigenous in Dominica right um so for me it was that you know what it doesn't matter if we're in Africa or in Dominica or in uh North America it the Queen Mother is always around right and um and it had to be a woman um and I don't want to say too much because there's something about her you know her her skin tone and all that that that will be discovered but I just find it was so important to have that particular you know um aspect to her to her how do I word it melanin um so um you know so I mean that to me the the Queen model was just so so important and so revered and just um an opportunity again to reach out and you know kind of pay homage to women and their existence in the world and and what they they do what they've overcome and what they continue to do.
SPEAKER_01That uh is really beautiful and that like they're the the the Queen Mother is present everywhere in some way. This actually is a perfect segue to the question I was going to ask you next because you also write I think we've talked a lot about some of the male characters talked about Edda but you write a variety of perspectives um from women and it's clear like just hearing from the beginning of our conversation with Edda like how much you revere and how much it is important that you are doing justice to black women in particular.
SPEAKER_03What is that process of writing uh a women's perspective like for you um it is very uh soul searching um it is because I think like we all have a woman within us right and that we we we come from from woman right um but more so you know um I find that I have to do it properly right I can't just willy-nilly just say okay I'm gonna write this and then no it has to come from a place of um it has to be purposeful but a place of respect um even when I write uh a a bad or nasty character um it's not always I try not to make it superficial right to really that we understand the psychology of that person. Um so um writing women or writing a woman for me it's it's it's it's personal you know yeah that's the best way I can put it um it it's one of those things that I it's hard but I I enjoy it because it's so challenging right and it it makes me or it puts me in a place where um whatever I write I know that at the end of it all it's going to be okay it's going to be fine. No one is going to be offended or hate what I've written. And I think of you know my students who are going to read this right my children who are going to read this right my daughter who's going to read it right so you know even my mother right and she gives me the most stick of you know of anything um but you know it is that is that the idea of the representation and what it means. So I I try my best to do to do it justice.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it was really distinct in the way that you talked about Edith from the point of view and Agnes from the point of view of William Blackwell and I feel like my brain Teflon pans the name of the son who is just truly a horrifying man. Ambrose. Ambrose yeah I literally kept like and I was like what is that well that's probably for me to talk my therapist about that for whatever reason I kept like forgetting Ambrose's name like what what's that guy's name again? I hate him. Anyways um the way that uh I'm trying to think of this moment specifically is William in the way that he describes Edith and his relationship with Edith and same again with his son Ambrose with Agnes um you very clearly describe these women from a point of view of this like white male enslaver gays and then you also show them for who they are in their in their own actions. What was that like to try and like inhabit both of those perspectives?
SPEAKER_03Yeah um I honestly I don't know if I actually thought about it you know know that you asked the question um but I know when I was writing it it was very very important to me that it be very very different right um and that even when William or his son their interaction the way that they looked at at these women um it had to clearly demonstrate the women and how they felt or perceived that particular white male enslaver gays right um I didn't want to just write how the men felt or or how they acted um and then just have the women just be there as you know just receptors of of whatever right to me it had they had there had to be some kind of response even if they said nothing at all right their body language the way there had to be something that showed the way that they did not appreciate this man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and had their own like agency and desires and that's right. Things that they wanted. It's something that I think about a lot. I I'm not a I took creative writing class but I'm not a writer like you and like Dan and like so many other people I have the privilege of knowing
Writing Across Identity With Purpose
SPEAKER_01now. And I always wonder what it takes to write from a different point of view and if if over time you've developed like some habits or things that you think are like good advice for anybody getting started when you're thinking about okay I want to write not just about from my lens, but making sure that I have characters represent the world. How do you do that? Like do you check in with your does you do you show your mom you're writing in advance? Be like, hey, tear this apart. If I showed her in advance I would never write yeah so what's your process like when you're thinking about okay I'm gonna inhabit a lens that is not mine.
SPEAKER_03I just write it um and then I I show it to trusted people. For this book though on such a tight deadline that no one saw it before my editor saw it. But in previous it's always you know write and then I have two or three trusted individuals that I show it to and they give me feedback. I never have an issue with like the different perspectives. I think mainly is it's because I take so much time to actually do it. Right. And for me, you know, we can never be afraid to write if we're writers we're going to write right um I mean I had a uh a former colleague who who asked me you know I want to write a book about some kind of um in the Navy but they had a black character a main character and and he was like yeah so you know should I do it? Like do whatever you want I don't care right um but then I'm thinking you know why are you coming to me asking me if you should do it you know like what is your I didn't say this to him right I was like when I saw a thing in a half I was like well what is your purpose you know what is the point of writing it if you're just gonna write just to have to write it then just don't do it. Like let black people do it right you know and do it justice. But if there is something that you actually there you know you want to discuss and you want if there's an actual purpose behind it right that is clear right that doesn't um you know put down black folk that it it there are so many ways and reason we can write other perspectives and and other uh um uh folks uh I say do it but do it with care right and know why you're doing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah not just because you're trying to like check the box. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's something that I try to be aware of too like sometimes I wonder if like because I want people to be represented in stories like am I checking a box? Am I going to do it justice? And like I I I sometimes am afraid that like if somebody is too far removed from my own experiences like I just won't be able to capture their experience enough. So like I I might not actually do them justice. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and the power dynamics again I think it's very different like if you were to choose to write um a female black character as your lead versus you choosing to write Robert um Margaret. Like there's a there's a difference there in the context and the history and the care that's required. That's worth noting here. But I think in general I like I really appreciate the commentary on intention and that shows through in all of the characters that you write and the care and like checking in with people is a good rule.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think actually one thing though just to Dan um you were saying you know sometimes you you don't know if you should and maybe you just won't I say you know do it right don't just say you won't because you're afraid of like what it might look like right um but then after you do it, you know, like let it sit and then really just try your best to connect with it and then go out in the community and present it. What do you think about this? Right? Like some people that you trust uh people you know of that particular um uh race or whichever that you know just I think there's a lot to be said in wanting not just to check out a box but to actually have somebody in our story right and if you really want them in your story then put them in your story. You know I I I think there's there's um there there is space for that I I really do. I don't think it really matters your your own background I think you know but it it's the it's the representation and it doesn't have to be perfect right but as long as your intentions are good and you know where you're going with it and that you're willing to go further I say by all means man don't don't cut yourself short.
SPEAKER_01I I appreciate that um because you know some you know speaking of you know going back to self-doubt yeah it's easy to self-doubt when uh there's a lot of people that are ready to tell you how wrong you are oh yeah that's the vulnerability but I'll say like there's also the other the flip side of it but I think that you're much more older and mature than 18 year old Leah but I I will not describe this book uh in any detail but I it wasn't a book it was a short story for like a class in high school and I wrote this is like peak 911 anti-Muslim propaganda time. And I wrote this book that was supposedly from the point of view of a woman who wore a burqa. And obviously I never published it it's like a terrible high school story. But years later I thought about it and I thought this I was trying to be empathetic. I was trying to put myself in this person's shoes and I didn't know anything. And thank God I never published that. So I I'm grateful that we live in an era and like you're also old and mature enough to to gut check those things because that's I think that's where it can be dangerous if people just decide like this is what I've heard and what I've seen and therefore that's what's true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah about an experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah yeah that short story haunts me Robert so bad.
SPEAKER_03Well some things it's just you know it it it's um it's our thoughts right and we're trying to make sense of the world and you know you're trying to make sense of 9-11 and that was your way of dealing with it and and and trying to make sense of it right so it it served a purpose I'm sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I was trying to understand that point of view but I was there I was uh like speaking of tradition and propaganda like I had only one point of experience which is what I saw on TV and at that point I lived in a completely white small town where I don't think I met a single Muslim person. Um I gotcha. So years later when I went to Toronto and I got to actually become friends with people from all backgrounds and then real and I was like I'm you know it's just a personal self moment where I was like oh wow that was bad. I gotcha I gotcha which is good you know I'm sure maybe I'll look back in 20 years on something I do now and be like oh Leah little Leah you learned that.
Kalinago Naming Land And Resistance
SPEAKER_01But getting back to your book, I think another character is Mary, um who is Kalinago do you say Kalinaga and Kalinago depending on gender? Is it Kalinago? Or does it Kalinago Kalinago which is the indigenous uh group of people who their traditional homeland is what is now called Dominica and um that is also a perspective to inhabit why was it important for you to bring in that lens um in this story I I had to there is no Dominico without the Kalinago right um I mean it's part of my ancestry as well um so for me it's like that's just a no-brainer I I you know there is just you cannot talk about Dominico especially in the you know early 1700s and not talk about the Kalinago and and ignore them it it it it does not work yeah so that was just yeah had to be done yeah yeah and it was interesting to learn like the um the the name of Dominica Y to kubuli which I'm sure I'm saying kind of in the direction of correct you could feel free to no it's perfect it's perfect oh you're kind yeah why to kubuli I'm gonna practice I always think it's interesting to realize you know in the same way that you had Baco renamed by white people that we also rename places and then um conveniently as you know folks of my background will like forget that they actually have a name that there is a people that there is an entity and a culture.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right um and I it I wanted to ask you you said at the very beginning about imperialism like this was a way for you to look at that as a mirror. Can you say more about that?
SPEAKER_03In terms of the carnague you mean and the yeah yeah um well I am in my heart like a little revolutionary um I I I believe in in resistance I believe in the fight of the little people little person um I believe you know that the world is ours right and it belongs to everybody and all these borders are just man-made fabrications and we don't need any man's um um what's the word any man's uh authority or permission right to to to live anywhere that that's what I believe right um if you think of you know the African continent especially like sub-Saharan Africa uh how it's all divided up there was a time when it was just a matter of clans right and now there are hard borders and countries and you have clans like family that live on the different sides and it's just how is this possible right how you can just have people from Europe just come and say okay I'm gonna take this part I'm gonna take that part you know like right now there's not much we can do about it but at the same point you know this happened right um and now when some countries are fighting for their independence um and are fighting for autonomy control of their own money right and then you have them being told well you do that we're gonna do this and you have the entire community in Europe saying yeah we're gonna back so you know it it's just this constant um uh put down right just it's constant it's not going anywhere no matter how hard some of these places try so for me it's just important that you know the truth be out there um and you know just the the the the the fact that what we're trying right so if you're gonna read the book and you get that from it that you know it's important to keep on pressing keep on asking questions keep on you know just just fighting for the little things just just hope um a difference not necessarily having to to assimilate to any kind of idea um by all means you know that's why I I write because I think that's the only way or that's my way of of you know revolting of showing dissent and actually you know um people actually listening to me and uh being able to see my point of view so that's yeah that that's exactly why I do it yeah I think that like you can you can tell people what's true all day and especially now with people's beliefs of varying degrees of truth um but if you tell them a story that's much more powerful.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's why they like to ban books. That's yeah the story.
SPEAKER_02Because the story reaches people it does it does.
SPEAKER_01I mean now I now I know it's like something small and so big. I didn't know uh Domenico was called why two kubuli I didn't know about the Kalinago. Um those are things I didn't know. Also it it was like a slap in the face when I realized the French Revolution is happening at the same time as your story and the way you wove in like another fight happening in another world but that it's still connected and like was just mind-boggling. And one of the things that I did take away from your book Rob was like just some some solace and also some determination that it's like okay if I don't see the world that I want in this life to come.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01That doesn't mean that we don't put keep pushing right but like I thought I'm like reading about the 1770s and I'm thinking about the rebellions in that time and I'm seeing people in like great suffering at the hands of others through your book and I'm just thinking like wow we are still like you said with imperialism like this stuff is still happening in different ways in different shapes and forms. But like it's still happening. And sometimes that gets me down but there was something about your book that was just that made me feel like okay like this is a reminder that this is a long this is a long story and we just gotta all do our part. I don't know. That's what I took from it.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I I appreciate it. Um you know it it is exactly what I I I I I hope um readers would Be able to get from it, right? Just, you know, and we all have our own interpretation of stories as well, right? And to hear your interpretation of the values and and systems and and you know, just what you take from it. That that I feel great about that. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for putting it in the universe. Thank you. Oh, there's I'm looking at my list of questions. I think that is also one of the torturous things is that there's never enough time and always more
Takeaways Where To Find The Book
SPEAKER_01questions. I really um took a lot away from your book, but I I do want to close on this as a final piece before we get into where people can hang out with you on the internet and get your book, pre-order it, which is uh again, returning back to the very beginning. Um we didn't even get into how time and see, this is what I mean. I want to talk with you about time and the concepts of time and reincarnation, and anyways, I have ADHD if you haven't picked it up yet, Robert.
unknownAs a teacher.
SPEAKER_01My point is um your letter to readers right at the beginning says, When one of us suffers, we all suffer, and that community doesn't happen in isolation, and that you want readers to carry back into their own lives this message of Edda's story. Um, did you know that when you started it? I mean, you said that's sort of your purpose for writing, but is is there is there something from maybe this conversation, even before people have had the chance to read your story, um, that you want people to take away to be thinking about when they're reading your book?
SPEAKER_03Um I would say, you know, it it's one of those books that, in my opinion, um you can't uh just rush through it, um, especially with the timelines and the dates. Uh so that might just force people to just take more time and more care. Uh but writing, like I said, uh for me is one of those ways that I show it is my form of resistance, right? Um and like you said in that forward letter, um we have to put out there um I I guess peace, uh little bits of us that's gonna make the world better, you know. Um and we cannot do it on our own individually separately, right? Like the idea that we can change things um in and be fragmented doing it is not gonna work, right? It's it's it might be baby steps, right? But I think if uh the mindset is right and we're all thinking in the same way, we can for sure bring about some change. Um you know, you talk about the the color orange and how you despise it now, and you know, um and like you said also that, you know, you can tell people over and over the truth or reality, and they won't see it until maybe in a story they read it, right? And they understand it. Um and and for me, that's that's just it, right? Here is my story. You're also allowed to write your own story, right? We can all write our stories, right? But you know, let's do it with purpose, let's let's do it with with you know the mission of you know just changing things and making things better. Um let's let's reach places that we that the man would never think that we can reach, right? So that's to me, if anything, you know, just let's just write our own story and let's let's let's make it better.
SPEAKER_01What you just said is the heart of what our podcast, what I want our podcast to be about. I think really good dystopian fiction in whatever direction of history, future, past it is, um, should be pointing us in a direction and should be trying to unpack things and help us learn what it means to be human and love each other a little more. So just what I was thinking about when you were saying that was like, I hope that you also kick back and drink your favorite drink and relax sometimes because it's a lot to carry. But maybe you're maybe you've already told me you're not carrying it alone. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I kick back enough. So good.
SPEAKER_01Okay, good, because you're giving us your heart, you know, in your book and in this moment, and I feel that. So thank you. Where if if people want more, which they do, um, I want more. I've got to go back and read Todd Let's Her Body specifically because now that I know that it means Y2 Kubouli, um where can people hang out with you on the internet and pre-order uh the 12th house or go back and buy your other books?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um you can find me on Instagram at uh Rob DelaWrights and my internet address, um my my is uh robdelabooks um.com. Um and for the books themselves, I mean, really, uh online, Barnes and Noble. Um if you subscribe to Amazon, uh they're there as well. Um, but also most independent bookshops would have them, right? And I will strongly say, you know, support those. Um but yeah, they're anywhere that sells books should have um my my books. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Buy the book, also ask your library to get it.
SPEAKER_03And the library as well, for sure. Do not forget the library. The library is uh is is yeah, yeah. And also um it is on Audible as well. So um the audio is available. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's available now? No, or for this one, it will be available. Tall it's your body's available as audible. Yes, tall is your body is available. And the 12th house will be available in audio, audible. That's right. Amazing. Okay, I'm gonna go back and listen to it with a with not the audible voice that says a good one.
SPEAKER_04The proper narration.
SPEAKER_01I mean, like frankly, that is sometimes the differentiator for me of how I know a book is really good. Is if it's like exceptional and it's still like someone saying agape every page and reading advanced reader copy, it's a good book. So well, Rob, it's been a real pleasure. We appreciate you taking the time. And I know you got to hop straight to soccer, if I remember correctly. Um so thanks for being a great dad, a great middle school teacher, a great author, and uh a great member of the community when it comes to to writing. It's been great to spend time with you.
SPEAKER_04And a great human.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Thank you so much, and thank you for being such great hosts. Um, I had a great time. Um, y'all are funny. I like it. I love it. You know, I feel like we're we're just all friends chatting, to be honest. Like it was great. It was great, really, really good. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And thank you to Naila for connecting us.
SPEAKER_01Naila, you are a real one. Yeah, the true king. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Now uh write another book so we can so we can interview you again.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02All right, I will.
SPEAKER_01All right, have a good rest of your day, Robert. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02You as well.
SPEAKER_01Okay, bye. Oh, could you tell I was having a very big author crush on Robert de la Chautier? Like, wow. Um, Naila King, you are a king. Thank you so much for making that introduction with us. It was really uh one of my best reads in a long time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I I love when we have really deep conversations about deep and important things uh in in in an interview, because like my brain was moving a thousand miles a second um as as I was just exploring the world of writing and history and everything it means to be alive, all while I was supposed to be reading um a document in Google to remember where we are in this interview.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I knew it was gonna be that kind of interview because how could it not when you have a book like that? Um, and even just the way that Robert writes emails, I was like, this is gonna be one of those ones that like makes people's hearts explode a little bit. Um, and that's a good thing. So if you haven't yet, I really deeply recommend pre-ordering um from your local bookstore. Also ask the library to have it. This is this is one of those books that needs to be on the shelves and read by people. Yeah, this is this is the book that you uh that you tell grandma about. Yeah. Yeah, you give it to her for your whatever holiday you celebrate for her birthday.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's like, grandma, how do you feel about colonialism? Never mind, don't care, read this book.
SPEAKER_01Stealth Learning. Yeah. Uh I learned a ton from that book, so appreciate his graciousness. And um, if you're new to Zonny Book Club, hello, welcome. Every episode's a little bit different. This was one of our, I think, really beautiful heartfelt deep ones.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And others are silly and stupid. We like to keep a balance.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh Robert said that he loved our silly and stupid episode that we listened to just before this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, he said there was something that we were saying about not knowing if it was episode 149 or 150. And uh he was like, that was that was hilarious. These people are gonna be off the wall.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and indeed we were. So thanks everybody also for listening. There's a lot of real-time processing, but when you have a book, like this is the kind of book that I think should be a book club read, maybe in the future, especially with an Audible coming out, because there's so much to unpack inside of this book that like we barely touch, and obviously, I'm not gonna give away the plot because you need to read it. Um, some of the horror is horrific. It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because it's like it's real, it's real horror.
SPEAKER_01It's real horror. But then there's also this like undead, unborn baby situation that's really unique and has control over a living being, which is her dad. Her future.
SPEAKER_04I feel like we didn't even discuss the plot at all, which is fine because you need to read it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, go get it. Uh and for now, everybody, just know that we are gonna, you know what? I don't know what I'm gonna say. Let's leave it there.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what I'm saying. Thanks everybody for listening. Yeah. All the links for everything that was talked about will be in the description.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like always.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thanks for being the zombie's that we know will be as down for this book as others. This is I just this is like the moment of this is what this podcast is for.
SPEAKER_04Bye, everybody. Thanks for listening. Let us uh know if if you've if you love Robert as much as we do. Yeah. If you don't, actually, I don't want to hear from you. Yeah, I don't care. I don't care about your opinion. Bye, everyone.
SPEAKER_01Bye.