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Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
The Kara Mason Series with special guest Jill N. Davies | Zombie Book Club Ep 150
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This week we settle a burning physics question; can an inflatable pool "self-level" on a hillside, or is it doomed? To answer this very important question, we welcome scientist, science teacher, and zombie sci-fi author Jill N. Davies. Jill writes the kind of body horror that will make you cringe in her Kara Mason Story series, a world rebuilt after the outbreak where the promise of a cure becomes a power structure, fear becomes policy, and the "safe" choice can quietly cost you your humanity.
We get into why there's rarely one clean "right" decision, how the fear of being wrong fuels everything from authoritarian control to cringe culture, and why constant surveillance drains the joy out of learning and living. Jill also shares how the devastatingly premature birth of her first child pushed her toward publishing, how writing has carried her through hard times, and why she believes AI threatens markets but never human storytelling.
Guest Contact & Social Links
- Website: https://jillndavies.com
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillndavies_books/
- Goodreads (author page): https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/20334595.Jill_N_Davies
Relevant Links from the Episode
- The Kara Mason Story books (all editions): browse from https://jillndavies.com/index.php/books/
- Due North (Book 1): https://www.amazon.com/Due-North-Kara-Mason-Story/dp/B089267Y5Q
- Into the Deadlands (Book 2): https://www.amazon.com/Into-Deadlands-Book-Mason-Story/dp/B0CH1XVPNW
- Hearts of a Vanishing City (Prequel, 2025): https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Vanishing-City-Prequel-Mason/dp/B0F4B3WJBH
- Due North audiobook (narrated by Samantha Norbury): https://www.audible.com/pd/Due-North-Audiobook/B0DD5MQKW7
Zombie Book Club Links
- Join us on on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/ZombieBookClub
- ZBC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zombiebookclubpodcast/
- ZBC Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/710957975263518/
- Zombie Book Club Email: ZombieBookClubPodcast@gmail.com
Welcome And Pool Physics
SPEAKER_05Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is science. Leah. I'm Dan, and when I'm not doing science, I'm writing a book about a zombie apocalypse where there's a lot of science, but nobody really understands it.
SPEAKER_04Dan, you don't understand science. And I that is not the point of this episode, but we can get into it and ask our very special guest, Jill N. Davies, about why I understand science better than you. But we're gonna get into that later. Today we are chatting with the amazing zombie science fiction author Jill N. Davies. You heard it, and she is weird in the best possible way. She's a scientist, a science teacher, an author, and an avid outdoor enthusiast. And that combination makes her writing both uniquely grounded and super unsettling at the same time. Especially Jill's body horror. Uh, it will make you cringe when you read it. And the science fiction parts also feel just a little too plausible for our very dystopian time. Jill, welcome to the show. We are so happy to have you here.
SPEAKER_05I'm super happy to be here. Also, I um suspect that maybe you might be a possum in a human costume.
SPEAKER_00Definitely at least several in a trench coat.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, a possum and a couple raccoons. That's also science.
SPEAKER_04Okay. I'm breaking our tradition right away. I'm gonna give you a rapid-fire question that is settling an actually already settled dispute by science, but I want to hear your explanation of what you think will happen. Are you ready? You ready to settle a previous dispute between Dan and I? Because that's what his intro was about. We live on a hill. We get a that's very important. We live on a hill. We get a blow-up pool that the the ring at the top you fill up, and then as you fill it with water, it rises, right? Dan starts to set up this pool on the side of a hill. I tell him to stop. Why scientifically might this be a problem?
SPEAKER_00Because you're on a hill, so the pool's tilted like that. But the ring floats. The ring floats, but it's gonna float level, and the hill's like this. Exactly. So like the water, there's gonna be more looking. Self-correcting. Where is the water? Where is the water? The water's down here. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05See, you're making my point for me. Right. Unfortunately, it did not work out like that, and it just um collapsed under its own weight.
SPEAKER_04Dan said it would self-level and everything would be fine. And I and then I said, no, it will not. And then Dan said, It's science, Leah. And I'm never gonna let him live it down.
SPEAKER_05Is is that ever a good um argument to make in in the laboratory when you're talking to other scientists? Like, does anybody turn to you and just be like, it's science, Jill? It's science.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I probably say that to children a lot, but I don't know if another scientist has ever said that to me.
SPEAKER_03Why do you have to say it to kids?
SPEAKER_00Uh, because they will argue their ideas. They'll be like, I have this magnificent idea that is probably at least six percent dangerous, and I'm gonna try and enact it in front of you and tell you why the magical thinking in my mind is about to work. And I say, I am gonna stop you before we have a mess, and you need to listen to me because we are going to navigate around this with everybody in the room being safe and dry. And they say, Well, why can't I because science?
SPEAKER_05So, what you're saying is that I needed an adult.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I you needed you needed a safe adult scientist in your life to tell you not to be a dummy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's okay. I get to I get to lord it over him forever, so I'm kind of okay with it.
SPEAKER_05Yes, Leah is lording right now.
SPEAKER_04Yes. I love being right. It's a fatal character flaw.
SPEAKER_05We call it
Rapid Fire Apocalypse Choices
SPEAKER_05being on right mountain. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But let's get into our rapid fire questions. We love to ask everybody the first time we have them on the show, these, because actually we joke that it's for science. And maybe one day I'll show you my spreadsheet of everybody's answers and we'll see if there's something there. I don't know. Well, I want to know. Okay. Uh, Jill, what do you choose? 40-hour work week or zombie apocalypse?
SPEAKER_00Zombie apocalypse.
SPEAKER_04Why? That was way too fast.
SPEAKER_00Uh because I don't think that the zombie apocalypse would actually end humanity and it would be a chance for people to come together and prove that we never needed society in the first place.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I'm I'm of the same camp. And there there's a lot of pe reasons that people would choose the 40-hour work week. A lot of times it involves the fact that they have kids. Uh sometimes kids with with difficult needs, and the zombie apocalypse only makes that harder. But I I feel like, you know, this 40-hour first of all, if you only have 40 hours in a work week, um, congratulations. I know, right?
SPEAKER_02That sounds like a vacation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. But like, you know, we're we're especially now, we're entering a world where that that idea of like just going to your job and doing your job is just like a hair away from like being desolate on the street with your five kids that have special needs. And I would argue that that situation would be worse than the zombie apocalypse, just living in our current society and not having what you need.
SPEAKER_00I've always thought that like a zombie apocalypse is a social commentary on the way that we are forced to perform and engage in our society as opposed to like having the agency to like do our own things with our time and our life, because like we don't choose the distractions that we have, we don't choose the work that we have to do. We are like, you know, like we're a slave to a system that took our autonomy. And, you know, like the zombie apocalypse suggests that you're at a pivot point where the the situation that you're in is now like subject to your decisions. How are you going to deal with it? Are we going to defeat the zombie masses or are we going to become one of them? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's the reset button. And like, yeah, we'll get into it with your series. The reset button doesn't always necessarily lead to something better. Right. Um, depending on how power plays out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. There's plenty of people out there that want to continue the horrors that exist in our modern society.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But it's an opportunity. When there's chaos, it's an opportunity to create new structure. I think that's always exciting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Going into the timeline that we're going into, I mean, that's I think that's something to keep in mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't even feel like we're going into the timeline anymore. Like it's starting to feel like culmination.
SPEAKER_04We're there. Yes. Yeah. So on that note, we're kind of in our own 40-hour apocalypse. If we're lucky and we have a 40-hour job, let's even like be real about the moment in time we are in this country. Um, but in the more fun version, we're in the zombie apocalypse here, and you come across a giant warehouse full of a single, unlimited, basically for your lifetime, shelf stable food item. This is the one thing you know you're gonna have until you die. What would you pick?
SPEAKER_00Oh, that is a tough one. Like, I'm kind of torn between water and flour. Like water because like shelf stable. You know, you know, I I think I always think like, I'm not worried about water. I live next to a flowing body of water that you know, and have have this scientific know-how to keep it sterile. But also, like, I'm taking so much for granted to think that it's always going to be there and I'll always have access. But I kind of lean toward flour because there are a lot of things that we can produce uh, you know, in a world where everything is collapsed, like growing vegetables and fruits and harvesting and foraging and hunting are all accessible. Whereas like flour grains have a process that is challenging and you can naturally produce a starter if you've lost one, and then you've got like a life-sustaining item to supplement the ups and downs of a survival life. And so, you know, those are kind of kind of kind of where where I'm torn.
SPEAKER_05I think it's a great idea because like, you know, a fresh baked loaf of bread in the zombie apocalypse is it's gonna bring your spirits up.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And also, you're the first person to ever say flour. Yeah. And it's really smart and like sometimes something so obvious is like not thought about. You know what I mean? But that makes a ton of sense. Flour. We've got like peanut butter rice, but flour is first you're the first one.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think I think the only thing that I that I would opt for other than just flour, I'd I'd opt for the the um the wheat berries, like the unprocessed version of it, because that comes with like all of the proteins. But are the wheat berries shelf stable? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've got something. Yeah, I mean, I guess oh okay.
SPEAKER_00My my only thought in having it pre-processed is like the element of time in a survival situation, and like you're in a pinch. You're not gonna grind or mill wheat berries, but you can add flour, acid, and heat and create something that could feed somebody.
SPEAKER_05I just pour them in a bowl and like add some milk.
SPEAKER_04I wonder if there's a vendigrine diagram between being a scientist and being good at cooking. Because the way you just described that, I was like a very scientific way of thinking about food. Are you a good cook, Jill?
SPEAKER_00Uh I am a cook. I think that whether whether or not I'm a good cook is probably like subject to your own interpretation. Yeah. Um we we have our own sourdough starter named Brad Boublet that that we've had for several years. Um we we have our own like outdoor pizza oven and do a lot of like home baking. I haven't purchased bread from a grocery store in three, four years because goals. And like it's not it's not like a crunchy granola almond mom sort of thing. I bought bread once and made everyone in the family a sandwich and there was no more bread. And I spent like five dollars on that loaf and like the level of like helpless rage that I felt that I just spent five dollars on bread that spent that you know that lasted for a while.
SPEAKER_05And three to four years ago money.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I was just like, I was just like, I I'm not gonna do it again. I will not buy bread again. That that was the worst experience of my life, and that was what finally pushed me into creating a system where I could just weekly bake bread.
SPEAKER_05You know, I I really love like Texas toast bread, like the thick sliced bread. And like if I had to feed anyone else other than Leah and I, like one loaf of bread would be like if it would be breakfast sandwiches for like three people. And then we would need another loaf of bread.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it wouldn't last very long. I well, but I like this idea. I was actually looking at a pizza oven uh on Etsy today. I was like, probably build one, but yeah, I'd like to build one. Okay, we're continuing the apocalypse. I'm doing it. You're gonna do it? I'm doing it. Well, you're retired early. Um it's the apocalypse, but we still want to have fun, right? And you are this is like the warehouse of magical dreams. Okay. You find a working solar-powered DVD player and a box set. What a show do you hope that box set is to watch forever?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's the only one you're gonna have.
SPEAKER_00Bob's burgers.
SPEAKER_05Nice. That's a good choice, especially since it'll go along with like the the cooking in the apocalypse, too. Like you're gonna be making hamburger buns, hoping that you have something to put in there.
SPEAKER_04Who's your favorite character on Bob's Burgers?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I like the whole family. Like, it is so you know, fact about my family. We watch Bob's Burgers every single evening at dinner. It's kind of the only show that that we watch as a family. Uh, and a huge part of that is because I love it and, you know, my spouse loves it and it's appropriate for the kids. But like we have watched it for so many years now that my children now use it as like a social emotional reference point where they're like, Well, I was fighting with my sister, and I don't want to damage our relationship forever. So just like in Bob's Burgers, I have made a comic to show my apology for this thing that happened so that we can come together and not get launched into penal pods in space.
SPEAKER_05I think that's great.
SPEAKER_03I love your children.
SPEAKER_05I I I no longer have like the the the repeat show that I that I watched, but Bob's Burgers was one of my repeats back in back in the day when I couldn't sleep without l uh watching something that I'd I was so familiar with that like the first ten seconds of the intro, I knew everything I could tell you everything that happened in the episode. The other ones were like I I would watch American Dad a lot. Um I would uh I would also watch Futurama. And uh and uh Archer was also one of those. And like I I I did I did draw like all of my life lessons from these shows that like I'd seen like a hundred times in a row, and it's like whatever's happening, it's like uh this is just like that one time that Bob told Gene to go get the the Korean black garlic from the from the restaurant so that he could win the burger making competition. It's exactly like that, and I'm I'm pulling a gene right now.
SPEAKER_00And you're like, I'm Gene, and this manuscript is my black garlic.
SPEAKER_05I thought I was Bob and I'm actually Gene.
SPEAKER_04I don't understand this repeat watching thing, but we're about to because we made the potentially rash decision to get rid of all of our streaming um subscriptions last night. So I think we're gonna start buying some things in repeat watching. And Bob's burgers should be one of the things that we get.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Leah doesn't enjoy it as much, but like I'm sure I could get my brother and I I think I just didn't grow up in cartoons.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um, last rapid fire question, because you are a science teacher, and I want to know if zombies invaded during a science lesson with like you work with grade four kids sometimes?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, picture grade four kids. It's a totally random choice. What uh experimental materials might be out that could be immediately become zombie weapons, and would the fourth graders be able to help?
SPEAKER_00I think the first thing that comes to mind would be vinegar, just because it's a strong, like pungent, slightly acidic, right? So, like my thought would be mask scent to wait them out and then create an escape situation would would be like my first thought because like at the elementary level, there's not a lot of like weaponry or tooling or strong chemicals because you're literally doing science with children, and some children have not learned the lesson, do not taste the science yet.
SPEAKER_04So you have to have all edible science. Wow. I never thought about vinegar as like a potential scent deterrent sort of a thing, but that makes sense. But also the idea of like everybody around you stinking like vinegar is highly unpleasant. But I guess it's better than dying.
SPEAKER_00So I mean, like, you know, if you're gonna survive the zombie apocalypse, like there's gonna be a lot of vinegar smells in that universe.
SPEAKER_05True. There's gonna be a lot of vinegar, like that's gonna be something that like not everybody thinks to grab and it's gonna last forever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and like you got a lot of natural fermentation going on that's gonna create an endless supply of distillable vinegar.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and like the intentional fermentation would be a lot pretty easy too, you know.
SPEAKER_04I'm sure we'd become noseblind eventually too, and just accept that we all smell like vinegar.
SPEAKER_05If it would cover up the smell of decomposition. That's true. That would help a lot, actually. And also, there's like all the science that you gotta do uh beforehand. Like you the the vinegar would help determine if the zombies have a sense of smell. That's true, but they don't like what can fix it. Yeah, and the can they be blinded with it? Yeah, like there's a lot of science to do.
SPEAKER_04You know, I'm realizing how handy you would be in the apocalypse because you would be able to tell you like we need a scientist in our apocalypse survival crew. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And not Dan just be like, more than water purification and growing bread mold for penicillin. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04Sold. Sold. You're it's unfortunate you're on the opposite side of the country. Jeez. Yeah, we're well, we have a plan to meet in the middle. We do, we do have a plan. You're invited if you would like to bring your family to Missouri. That's our movement.
SPEAKER_05We're going to Ollie's house. Yeah, Ollie eats Brands. Ollie won't tell us where his house is, but they said that we could go to the nearby Walmart. If we go to the nearby Walmart, Ollie will come and get us.
SPEAKER_00See, I've always my my apocalypse plan has always been follow the core core the coast and make it up to Alaska.
SPEAKER_05Oh, you mean going inland to uh to to the Midwest America is not a good idea?
SPEAKER_00Well, you're you're surrounded by every population moving in a direction there isn't water. This is again why we need a sea test.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04These are obvious things when you say that.
SPEAKER_00And you can rebuild society in your life and have a period of rest until they thaw and come after you again in the spring.
SPEAKER_05And on the coast, you could harvest seawater and distill sea salt, which is an ingredient you need for your bread.
SPEAKER_00Salt for preserving meats, and then you've got temperate enough zones that you're growing your plants and vegetables that will then rot and you can distill the vinegar.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Wait, is that how you make vinegar? I really don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh acetic acid is part of the fermentation and rotting process of most fruits.
SPEAKER_04Wow. I feel like I wish you were my science teacher when I was a kid. I made a former guest my dad who was the same age as me because he was a better no, sorry, dad, you're never gonna listen to this podcast. But Ray Jameson, shout out to you. You're a good dad. I'm gonna just like self-insert you in my brain now when I think of a science teacher and how cool it would have been as a kid because you sound like a lot of fun.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04We have fun. Yeah.
Rocket Fuel Labs To Zombie Fiction
SPEAKER_04Um, what got you into like, I know you've been writing for a really long time, but like, why zombies and why zombies and science fiction together?
SPEAKER_00So uh I guess we could start with uh I've been writing since I was like a little, little kid, and it used to always be like forest animals and survival situations. Um zombies started showing up in my writing when I got my first job as a developmental chemist on a like in a chemical, like a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility that is on a government-controlled um rocket fuel propulsion generating and testing facility. So like I like my job was on these like hundreds of acres of like protected, like fenced in, like you don't have to have an ID and they look under your car to get in land. And then the laboratories that I worked in were built in the 1940s for uh manufacturing rocket fuel. And they were like, of course, like updated to become pharmaceutical manufacturing laboratories. And so there's no windows in any of like in the building at all because like they were built so that like if there were an explosion, you had a blast-out wall and like you know, like you're only destroying one portion of the laboratory, but they're like old, kind of felt like underground, couldn't tell what time of day it was. And I'd just be like in these buildings doing chemical testing, and like it was kind of like eerie, like you felt like you went into another world where there's nothing and like the land is barren, like you go outside and there's like a rattlesnake and grass. And then there's like, of course, the warehouses full of chemicals. And so my friends started joking that because I worked in such a weird place that if the zombie apocalypse ever started, they would know that it had to have come from me and the weird chemistry that I was doing at this facility. And so it became the joke. And then I started associating the laboratories that I was working at kind of like with a zombie apocalypse and imagining like kind of this like world where like zombies exist and everybody knows about it. And like, what are these laboratories doing? And that that became kind of the inspiration for the the Caramason story right there, like just being like highly like focused on like the laboratories and knowing about the zombies as opposed to like not knowing about them.
SPEAKER_04I mean, as you're describing it, I'm picturing the way that you describe the northern laboratories and I'm seeing like a direct one to one. I think it's one of the things I really enjoy about the way you write is like I can you can tell that you have the background you have. Sometimes science fiction can be like, I don't know, it doesn't have the same realness to it. But there's I just like there's a level of trust in the way that you write about the things that you do that. I can like sense the truth behind it, which is really nice because I don't have to suspend my disbelief that much. I'm like, this feels legit. I can see these things happening. Um, for people discovering the Kara Mason story series for the first time, it's two books plus a prequel, right? At this stage. Yeah. How would you? But how would you introduce people? Like, how do you normally talk about what this is about?
SPEAKER_00Um so I I kind of lately I've just been like, hey, do you like body horror, feminine rage, and a series that like really fulfills the take down the government aspect of our world? Uh boy, have I got something for you. But um, I would say, so like there's a teen scientist who gets dropped into a world with a load of trauma. And this world has zombies in it, but they're not the problem. And she has to decide is she gonna become part of the solution or is she gonna blow everything up? And that tends to be like like my hook. I'm like, like, so zombies. You could help, you could hurt, you've got trauma.
SPEAKER_04What you gonna do? Yeah. And the world that you built is fascinating. Can you talk a little bit about like the northern laboratories, the dissenters, and the deadlands? Like, enough that is not spoilers, but just for folks to get a feel of your world.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So um the world itself is a society rebuilt about a hundred years after a zombie apocalypse. So, like the big bad, oh my god, there's zombies, has already happened. Society collapsed, people became like bands of survivalors, and like society got rebuilt from that on the premise that there is a cure, and that like if you join our society, we're gonna take care of and keep everybody safe. And so that became the premise of the society that got rebuilt is everybody who joined it was joining on this idea of like, you're gonna keep us safe and you're gonna give us a cure, and you're gonna take care of everything that we need. And so there's this massive power and balance that became the premise of the rebuilt society, where everything that everybody gives up is like, because if we do this, we'll be safe. If we do this, we're gonna get a cure. If we trust, it's gonna work out. And that's the world that has become the cities in the Kara Mason story. And that's the world that she grew up in. And she grew up like double blind because she is getting educated by the people who built the society to like be the control structure. And so she believes everything. And she's like, I'm gonna become a scientist and I'm gonna work on the cure, and I'm gonna become instrumental because like she knows she's smart. Like, there's this like when when you have a main character that is supposed to be very smart, like it's difficult, right? Because you're like, this character is so smart, and they know they're smart, and they have to have the answer to everything. And so my kind of like way of handling that is like she knows she's smart because you know, she's in an academic system that is like kind of proof positive that. But the system that she's in has made her naive and lied to her a lot. And her dad has just let it happen because he thinks he's protecting her. But her dad is a part of this group called the dissenters, and they're the people that came from the people that like watched this happen and said, ooh, I think that there's a problem with this world, and I don't think that they're actually trying to help. And I see a lot of danger, and I see people getting hurt, and we've seen people getting disappeared, and so we don't buy it. And so the dissenters are a secret group of people who are like kind of trying to build up the power systems to fight back against the city-states and the northern laboratories is completely removed from it all, and it's where they send the scientists to work on the zombie virus. And the premise there is that if you send them away and you're working on the zombies away, it keeps everyone else safe. And so everything that's happening to help the world and save us and cure the zombie virus is happening over here where it's safe, but we promise it's happening.
SPEAKER_04So much of what you just described feels uncannily similar to how I grew up.
SPEAKER_05Like also feels like our world.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like I grew up shocked, you know. I don't know about you all, but I sure didn't learn I'm Canadian. Um so I also had an education in American history, but the version of Canadian history that I got was really sanitized.
Building A Cure Based Society
SPEAKER_04And definitely go Canada. Canada's great. You want to be a like a good citizen of Canada, everything is fine. Nobody was harmed in the creation of Canada. We're nice here. Nobody's being harmed. Nobody was here before you got here, Leah. Um, so that feels very and then like the trade-off of safe of safety, but like, is it actually safe in your society?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like I really wanted to, like, the whole premise of like creating this society was this idea of like, let's make it obvious that fear is the tool of control. Because if you've got a literal monster, a literal virus that anyone could catch if they do the wrong thing, and it turns them into a literal monster that will kill more people and turn them into monsters, people are gonna be afraid of that. People aren't gonna be afraid to like hide that they're afraid of that. And what if that's the weapon of control? Then like all of the ways that people are willing to like sacrifice, you know, their freedoms or their like sense of humanity kind of become obvious. And like you quit having this argument of like, well, nobody would do that, because like when there's a monster, it's like, well, of course people are going to be afraid of a monster and do that. And so it kind of creates this freedom to like really explore how like fear as a tool of control works in a society.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's a there's a quote that I'm not sure who to attribute it to, but it's something I think about a lot uh lately is if you would if you would f if you would trade your freedom for safety, you deserve neither. And I feel like that's a society that we live in right now where there's so many people that are willing to give up all of their liberties, every freedom that they have, because they think it'll make them safer. And the thing that they think will make them safer is actually making all of us less safe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that without getting too much into like the broad punches of the series, um, I think the best way to put it is due north and into the deadlands, like the start of the Kara Mason story, are very much a, hey, look, this is where we're at. This is what it's like for a person to like become aware of it and decide to do something. And Hearts of a Vanishing City is like, hey, look, this was the turning point where we went from like, are we really gonna let these things happen to, oh, they're happening and it's too late? And the people, like, it's like the last group of people that saw what was getting sacrificed. And it's supposed to like kind of set the stage of like, how could how could we get to a world so controlled with people so blind and so ignorant to
When Dystopia Stops Feeling Fiction
SPEAKER_00the past? And how indeed? How could that happen?
SPEAKER_05Seems unrealistic, Jill.
SPEAKER_00Here's the part that like literally tears me in half is I wrote Hearts of a Vanishing City. I began drafting it in early 2020. Early 2020. And when I say early 2020, I mean before COVID was a thing. I was drafting this novel. And then um Do North, which I originally drafted in like 2011, 2012, I published in 2020 because that's how long it takes, took me to figure out how to like write a complete novel and publish it. But um, you know, so like I'm writing Hearts of a Vanishing City in early 2020, as Do North is slated to release on May 26th of 2020. So like that publishing date was picked before a pandemic shut the world down. And I was like, oh, no big deal. I can release a zombie apocalypse pandemic book in the middle of a pandemic, and it'll be fine. Uh so writing Hearts of a Vanishing City, as I'm like trying to explain this world and like build the premise of like, how could a world get to this point that like when I was publishing due north, I was like, this is so extreme. I'm gonna feel silly. Like, people are gonna be like, these things would never happen. This is so extra, Jill. Like, why are you writing about a world like that? And now I'm like looking back at what I wrote, and I'm like, this feels not extreme, but incredibly realistic. And like almost like I did see the beats of like where something could go and just couldn't believe myself that we would actually get there. And so like I had to sit with that because it's like it's not like I'm some sort of like prophet predicting the the future. I was just sitting with and thinking very hard about the very things that lead in this direction and thinking like, oh no, we as a society, we could never, and I was wrong.
SPEAKER_05There's too many safe safeguards. Yeah. Surely um people of good conscience and sound mind would never make the decisions necessary to plunge us into chaos.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, like, because like I wrote about in Due North, there's like one line, and it was like almost a throwaway line because I didn't want to like focus too much on it because I was like, this is this is so extreme. We're just gonna hand wave, but it's in the world, where I was talking about the vote that abolished voting in Dew North. And I was like, I don't want to draw too much attention to that because people would never do that. People would never do that. And like here we are in a world where like we're actively talking about whether or not that could happen.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And like that's too close for me.
SPEAKER_05Do you sometimes feel like um real life is stealing all of your best ideas? Like all of this, all of this was like, you're writing this as like, oh, this could happen. This is kind of like a warning sign to humanity. Don't go down this path. But as you're writing it, it's it's happening.
SPEAKER_00I think, I think that when I was publishing originally in 2020, and maybe even when I released Into the Deadlands in 2023, I felt like that a little bit. And I had to like stop and like sit with it myself and say, I'm writing dystopian literature, and I know I'm writing dystopian literature. And the whole point of writing dystopian literature is to create a fictional world that puts a lens on social issues. So, like, if I'm gonna do that, I have to accept that I'm either being completely fantastical and not actually putting a lens up to our world. Or if in putting a lens up to our world, I hit on topics that then kind of become really prevalent, it can't surprise me because I'm thinking about our world as I'm writing my stories. And so like I just I had to like shift how I thought from like the world keeps like one-upping me to, well, I did start writing this because I was thinking really hard about the world. And, you know, maybe even originally doing some self-investigation of like things that I learned and things that I experienced and like taking a step back and like thinking like, oh, fear-based control, like really seems like it's becoming more prevalent. Like people doing things that don't make sense. And then like when you talk to them about it, there's a lot of fear behind all the things that they're saying. You know, like when we talk about fear of the other, like like there is there is this like tropism in zombie literature a lot and media, where like fear of the other a lot of the times does kind of come into like racial tensions and immigration and stuff. Like, like there is a fear of the other there, and it can be used for you know for good to like highlight issues and to help people unpack things, or it can be used as a negative. Like, hey, look, they're not like you, it's scary. And and so I think when when you really kind of get into unpacking like the roots of fears, which is what monster literature does, you know, you you hit close to home.
SPEAKER_04I feel like I needed to hear that. I just want to say that. But also, Dan, as somebody who's on his long journey to writing his first zombie book. I don't know how that landed for you, but I it felt soothing to me to hear your ability to get to that place. Because I've watched Dan struggle with this in this time as somebody who hasn't put something out yet, but has been, you know, like you said, like all of a sudden because he'd been writing it for how many years now? Oh, I don't even know. Off and on for four or five years. And there was a point last year where you were just like, say, thanks for spoiling it for me.
SPEAKER_00The only difference is is the zombies.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04But I think the way that you're talking about it is so important and like a reminder that it's still there's something safer about exploring these kinds of issues in an alternate reality than like having to face the everyday pain of this one. Like I'm able to immerse myself in the Kara Mason story and see the parallels, but also get to be swept up in like the the fantasy of it and the d you know, like it's different than ours, but it's just enough like ours that it can make me think about um how those same moral dilemmas and I relate to Kara having like I said, being raised
Moral Gray Choices In Resistance
SPEAKER_04the way that I was raised. And I think we're constantly put into moral dilemmas like she is, and also ones where like people around her don't think she's making the right choice. And I'm curious what made you want to make those kinds of decisions in the book where Kara has to like figure out what's right, but it's it's really not clear what is, and a lot of people don't agree with her, specifically Amos. Um, I'm thinking about in the first book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think because in like fear-based societies, there's this premise that like there's a right answer and there's a wrong answer. And even in our world, we walk around thinking like there's a right decision to make at every juncture, and all you have to do is make the right decisions, and then you reflect back on your other decisions, and you're like, I made the wrong decision about this, I made the wrong decision about this, I made the wrong, and like that's not how the world actually is. There's like there are like, you know, like if we're if we're looking at like horizontal moral morality, like there are decisions of like harm or like help that I think that like most people can agree on. But then the nuance is like like who gets harmed? How do you make an impossible decision? And this idea that like we I think we find comfort in the idea of thinking that like in every conflict that we have, there's a right decision, but there's not ever a perfectly right decision. A lot of the times, like even the small decisions that we make are nuanced and have risk and have risk of harm and have risk of like not turning out the way that we want them to turn out. And, you know, I really wanted to explore like like you can make imperfect decisions and still be moving towards something. And I really, really tried to unpack that in Hearts of a Vanishing City, because um, you know, like we talk a lot about like how do resistance movements begin? Like if we look at Due North and into the Deadlands as like the dissenter's big push, like they've made it to this point and it's going. And it might not be going the way that they thought it was going to go, but it's going. What does it take to get to those big movements? Like in, you know, in a in a hero's journey story, in in an epic science fiction story, you're watching as the people are in position and the thing is happening. And like, how does how does a world get there? And in Hearts of the Vanishing City, I was like looking at like how all these like really minor, unconnected decisions of people just like trying to do their best could actually build up to something like this.
SPEAKER_04Wow. I haven't read the the prequel yet, but now I really need to. That's incredible to think about. And it's also really scary because you want, I want there to be a right decision. I want to know that if we do X, Y, I want it to be a science equation, Jill. Me too.
SPEAKER_00Like teenage me choosing to be a scientist was like, you know what? Like, writing is subjective and creating good art is subjective. I'm gonna do science where everything is just set and there's a right and a wrong. And boy, boy, was that a naive thing to think
Science As Method Not Religion
SPEAKER_00about the world and about science.
SPEAKER_04Say more about that because it's actually literally the next question was about um whether science is a salvation for us or a weapon.
SPEAKER_00Ah, like so people think of science as like a set of laws, a set of facts, a set of like you can't argue with it. But science is none of those things. Science is a procedure for deepening understanding. So, like even the laws of the universe, you know, that we consider like infallible. Like they are laws because we understand how they work and we can use them to accurately predict things, like the law of gravity, right? But science isn't the law, science is the understanding and the defining of this thing. And so, like, if we make minute changes to our understanding of gravity, it's not that science was wrong, it's that the procedure keeps making things more clear. And like when I was young, I used to think of science as like these are the facts, and I can get really good at the facts and I can get good at understanding and predicting. And the deeper I got into becoming a scientist, the more I understood. Like I will never understand. And science is yes, about understanding, but it's not about like achieving an end goal. It's about constantly like trying to understand and trying to create and trying to like deepen our ability to like use the world and how it works around us for our benefit. But like it's a it's a procedure. Like I got degrees in a procedure that is almost a feudal process because like the more I learn and the deeper I become, you know, entrenched in it, the more I go, oh, I will never get there as an individual and as a society, like like it's it's it's unending. It's vast. And so whether or not it could be our salvation or our end, really is just like it's a procedure. So what are what are your end goals? What are you trying to achieve? Because, you know, like we look at where the funding for our science is going, and it's it's going a lot to control and harm. And like that is going to hurt people, but not because science is a negative thing, but because like who has the ability to dabble in control and what is their end goal versus, you know, science is a tool. Science is a method of understanding, it's not a religion, it's not its own entity.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And that's why when you say it's science, Leah. Because it is, it's just a way of understanding the world and deepening our understanding of the world.
SPEAKER_05And well, you see, when I was filling up the pool on the side of a hill, uh-huh, I was following the scientific method.
SPEAKER_04I mean, that is actually true because we this is it was a threshold moment in our relationship because I learned something about Dan, which is like you were like, Look, I just have to do this. And I was like, okay. Yeah, I have to make mistakes. I have to. And that is part of the scientific process. Um, and I I wonder if we could get more comfortable with making mistakes as a society. But then it can result in very bad things, Joe, like in your book.
SPEAKER_00It's true. Um like, but I think that some of the worst things happen when you're afraid of your own fallibility. And like I think of like when you think of Kara's most rash decisions, it's always when she's confronted with her own fallibility and she's having an emotional reaction to that. And so, like, you know, like like Kara might be a fundamentally bright person, but she's naive and she's emotional and she's impulsive. And almost all of the things that go wrong for her have to do with her own lack of emotional ability to like cope with the world around her and her being incredibly headstrong and not actually thinking things through. And and I think that that's really realistic. And it kind of fits a growth arc for somebody who's having to learn something beyond their scope, right? I think about like children, right? And how many times I'll have to coach. Them through something was like where I challenge them to build something. And they get five minutes into it and they throw their hands up and they say, I can't. And then you get crying kids and you're like, guess what? You're gonna be bad at this. And that's literally part of what we're doing here. You cannot make the next step if you are not willing to fail and let something be hard. And like that's one of the most important lessons. And so, you know, I want my characters to think something's too hard and fail at it because that is the human experience. And the more comfortable we get at failing, the better we get at figuring out the next step in the direction we want to go.
SPEAKER_04Doubling down on I wish you were my science teacher. I would, I would, I would
Cringe Culture And The Fear Of Wrong
SPEAKER_04like to have like grade school science class for adults from teachers like you to like reinitiate that love. Because I think that sometimes it gets like the vert the world I grew up in was like, again, like I love being right. It's one of my fatal flaws as a human being because it gives me, like, when I when I'm right, especially when somebody thinks I'm wrong when I'm right, it gives me like a an amount of dopamine and joy that I know is problematic. Okay, but it still happens in my body. But I think it's because I think it's partly because being right was like the safest and best thing to do, also to get praise, which is like I grew up in a very merit, what's the word I'm looking for? A meritocracy idea of like being the best or being really good at something and being wrong, taking risks, being bad at something in the beginning, like you're shamed for a lot in our society. Or like if someone makes a mistake, you know. I don't know, do you watch Survivor by any random chance?
SPEAKER_00Uh I I have in the past.
SPEAKER_04Like well, just briefly, the season 50. Um, I'm not gonna actually say the spoiler in case somebody hasn't watched it yet. I don't know who's listening, but the it's season 50 is the live show. Jeff Probst, the host, accidentally has a spoiler moment. It's like a really big fuck up jill. Yeah, like before we don't say what happens.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but before we see like the defining moment on the show about what happened, he brings out the loser to ask them questions about what just happened. And then after interviewing them, one of the other contestants is like, um, we didn't see that part yet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And the internet, like, it was hilarious. The internet was so mean, Jill. People were just like tearing him apart. I don't know why I went down this rabbit hole. Maybe it's part of my own stuff around learning how to be okay with mistakes too. But I started reading all this stuff. I learned that his his brother died 10 days before that. But even if that hadn't happened, I plan on making an art piece that says Jeff Probst can make mistakes too. Because I feel like as a society, we're not forgiving of each other for making mistakes. Not definitely of ourselves either.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like putting a pool on the side of a hill. Yeah, I don't forgive you.
SPEAKER_00Putting a pool on the side of the hill and learning, learning the hard way. Like and like there, there is there's a huge societal push to not be wrong and that there's safety in not being wrong. And like I think that like it's very reflective in our current culture. Like, you think about like the whole idea behind like cringe culture, right? Like, no, everyone is terrified to be cringe and like being current, like being wrong is being cringe, like trying something without knowing you're gonna succeed is cringe, like being yourself without having a perfectly curated correctness, right? Like it is cringe. Like this idea that the most dangerous, not safe thing you can be is wrong is so antithetical to learning and growing that I do think that it's like grinded a lot of our ability as a society to create and to learn and to grow. And a lot of us are just like stuck where we're at because it's not safe. And especially in a world where everyone feels like they're being watched all the time because everything is online and everything, like nothing disappears. You know, I got I got to be the weirdest little kid and nobody videotaped it. So, like the only way you know that I was a weird little nugget is because I'm telling you for sure, like I was uncomfortably weird, but nobody videotaped it. Like I don't have some like video buried in my parents' Facebook profile of me being a weird little kid that would like make me cringe. So, like, you know, that surveillance attitude of like you can't dance at a dance because other people would see you dancing, and what if you didn't dance perfect?
SPEAKER_05Like, yeah, you know, I think it's robbed up some jolly.
SPEAKER_04I totally true.
SPEAKER_05I heard a thing uh recently about um like the the young people who are now like entering nightclub life. Um when you go to a nightclub now, which I'm far too old, I I wouldn't be allowed in.
SPEAKER_01That's way past that time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, truly. They'll be like, go home, grandpa. I'm like, I'm 43, and they're like, exactly. And uh yeah, like if you go in there, there nobody's dancing. And the reason that nobody dances at at these clubs anymore is because every like they will be recorded. Everyone has a phone and somebody would just record it as content. So nobody feels safe to dance in dance clubs.
SPEAKER_00That's a tragedy, but it's true, it's absolutely what's happening. People are afraid to live and express themselves or like be, you know, like even just like experience a moment of authentic joy because that could become somebody else's cringe content. And like it's robbing us of art and it's robbing us of joy, and it's robbing us of learning experiences because if you're so afraid that somebody else will clock you as wrong and uncomfortable, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna live? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05It makes me want to start a dance club, and I would call it no tech. And the whole the the number one rule check your phone. Everybody's got to check your phone at the door. And you know, we do we do like electromagnetic magnetic sweeps to find the tech. And it's like, you got tech, you gotta put it in your cubby, like we're in in kindergarten.
SPEAKER_04I feel like Gen Z would actually be up for that and Gen Alpha as they're coming up because there's such a I'm like really inspired by the pushback against that surveillance culture that we're building and big tech culture by young people. Um this is I think this con that not to make it a big deal or anything, but I think this conversation is gonna make me a better person, Jill. I'm really enjoying it. Like it's just uh especially I feel like this is the this is the moment where maybe I'm I don't want to be on Wright Mountain anymore.
SPEAKER_00Wow, I mean it's scary. Like we we talk about safety and we talk about like what we're willing to give up to feel safe. Like that's literally like the tag for Hearts of a Vanishing City is what are you willing to sacrifice to be safe? And the themes of the book are like, how much can you give away before you're giving away your own humanity? And I do, I I think that that the reason that those things came out is because like it feels like really important to me because it starts with like your own humanity. Like, can you give up your joy? Can you give up your freedom? Can you give up your, you know, like there's there's a huge thing about like censorship and literature and access to your history, right? And but like it does, it comes down to like, do you give up your experience of being your own self? Like, where where does that line go? And then what parts of your humanity and your like need for safety then start infringing on another person's like life and freedom and safety? And that's where like, you know, like, oh, if you're if there's a small chance that the person you love got infected, are you in order to be safe from them, are you gonna turn them in? Are you going to like take the rest of their life from them? And like, where where is that line in humanity? And if somebody is sick, at what point in time do you treat them like a diseased monster? And what point in time do they deserve to still be treated with the dignity of a human?
SPEAKER_04I mean, that's we have lots of examples of that in history with the initial HIV outbreak in the 80s. I mean, folks with HIV were treated like monsters, entire parts of civilization or not of our society were already, you know, gay men, already um outsiders and looked down upon at that time became like pariahs where people wouldn't even treat them. So these are real questions that we have like failed at as a species. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and like I think that the important thing to remember is it is all connected. Like your ability to like be wrong or be cringe is connected to your ability to treat other people like they deserve their whole humanity as well.
SPEAKER_04When did you did you always embrace your weird, or was there a moment where you decided you wanted to be free?
SPEAKER_00Um definitely did not always embrace my weird. I, you know, I lived a very repressed childhood where like I was weird and I couldn't I had no idea how to contain it, and you know, like felt very ashamed of who I was as a person. Like I like wrote a book about myself in fifth grade about like how I was so terrible and I just wish I didn't have to be me. So like like, you know, like there's a lot of like deep internal conflict, childhood trauma stuff going on there. And probably like in the unpacking from like college to I don't know, 30-ish, that I would that I was kind of realized, like I was never gonna not be this person that I am, and I'm not gonna fit in. So I might as well just like lean hard into this version of me. And like I get uh as a teacher now, like I get a lot of like, you're not afraid to be weird or like Miss Frizzle vibes. And like I do lean into that. Like I want my kids, I want my kids to be slightly uncomfortable with how unapologetically like weird I am, because I want them to see that I have like a real joy and passion and unapology about myself because I want them to see that like that's okay and they can think I'm weird, but there's no amount of them thinking I'm weird that will make me feel bad about that. And like I want them to see that represented because like they're all little weirdos too.
SPEAKER_04I want them to be okay with that. Yeah. What changed for you when you freed yourself in that way?
SPEAKER_00I'm just happier. Like I'm happier, I'm not afraid to be myself. I mean, like, I'm I'm like everyone. Like, of course, there are moments that I'm like, oh God, I'm so embarrassed by myself. But like, like really, it it's just like I'm happier. Like, I'm not gonna fit in. I know, I know for sure that that like I can be a little uncomfortable in who I am. And so, like, because of that, like, you know, I have my moments, but for the most part, I just like I don't have to try. I just get to be who I am. And part of who I am is like deeply caring about others. And so, like, that's kind of my connection point instead of like fitting in because I don't I don't fit in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, something I wonder like um if you've been able to also find your people in a way.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. Like I would say that like through efforts, both like online and in real life, like just kind of being myself. I've built I've built communities that I feel like are are like real and impactful and like make a difference. And that feels really good. Like, I'm definitely not in isolation. I was probably more in isolation when I was trying hard to fit in and and be part of the masses. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04My soul is literally being healed. Not even, I'm not exaggerating. I love this. It's just these are the conversations that I want more of in my life, and I think our listeners will all really appreciate too, because who hasn't felt weird? Our society is so obsessed with like this is what is appropriate or not appropriate. And 90% of it, if you did it differently, would not harm anybody. And I like I I I feel like our listeners are the weirdos out there. So just shout out to all the weirdos. I love y'all. Keep being weird and please get weirder. Um, sorry, I didn't know I was gonna have soul medicine today. But I shouldn't be surprised. In fact, I'm gonna, I was gonna say this at the end as a thank you, but I'll say it now. Uh, you're all listening to Jill. You may maybe folks listening have known Jill Ann Davies for a long time. You're big fans. Maybe you're new to this magical human being we have on this episode, but I want to just give you a shout-out for the kindness that you gave to me when I was laid off and going through a hard time. Um the way that you, you know, you I you don't we didn't know each other outside of like some content on social media, and you saw that and you reached out and you just acknowledged my humanity, gave me some ideas of options, and we're just a really kind person. And and like I want to say thank you for that. It meant a lot. And it means a lot, I think, when all of us take those moments because it can be a you know, I don't know, it may have taken you like five minutes to write me that message. You might and I don't even know if you remember, right, Jill?
SPEAKER_02I never remember, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But um, I think if we could all do that a little bit more for each other, and in the same way, also like going back to the mistakes. You see somebody make a mistake and you can tell they're upset about it, like let's not double down on making them feel worse.
SPEAKER_05Be kind. Yeah, like when somebody installs a pool incorrectly. We know inside of right mountain.
SPEAKER_02We all learn something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I do think I'm I'm I'm slowly stepping down off of Wright Mountain because of this conversation, which is not a small thing, Jill.
SPEAKER_05It's always harder to go downhill. It's it's true, actually.
SPEAKER_02Unless you're water.
SPEAKER_05Unless you're water, like what was in the pool when it rolled down the hill.
SPEAKER_04I wanted to um, if it's okay to switch topics a little bit, on your website you shared, and if we if
Hard things can become powerful stories
SPEAKER_04you don't want to talk about this, we can move on. But you shared that you had a devastatingly premature birth of your first child, and that that's actually what caught up catapulted you into writing and publishing. I mean, you were already writing, but can you tell us a little bit about that, how that like very difficult time actually helped birth some of the other amazing things beyond your child?
SPEAKER_00I mean, like largely trauma, and you know, has most good writing. Um, it like I was definitely not a stranger to to trauma up to that point, but um my first was born at 28 weeks. That's the very first week of the third trimester for anybody that doesn't know. So that means that she missed out on the last three months of pregnancy. Um I was devastatingly ill. And I think I was in like there was a huge element of denial as like, because I spent one week, I made it one week in the hospital before they were like, it's go time, like you're not okay, she's not okay, she's coming up. So like, but I had deluded myself in that one week in the hospital despite having been so grievously ill and miserable. And like I couldn't even like take a shower. Like I remember asking the doctor, he had he had arms the size of his head, and so we call him Dr. Strong Arms. And I just like, you know, like day four in the hospital. I just I just I really want to take a shower. I feel disgusting. Please just let me take a shower. It could be so fast. And like he was like, you get 15 minutes off of the monitor because she was being continually monitored. And he's and he said, if you are not back in bed on the monitor by minute 15, I will pull you soaking wet out of the shower. Like, like that's like that's how like like razor edge we were in the hospital. And she was born two days later. Um but um it ripped everything from me because like we lived in an RV in the hospital parking lot for three months while she was in the NICU. Um, you know, we went from, you know, starting our family to having like talks of people saying, like, it's not if she has complications later in life, it's what those complications are, what those disabilities are that, you know, so like like all the ideas of future and like my career ground to a halt because I couldn't go back to work. And, you know, like life suddenly looked incredibly different. And that first year that we were navigating all of the challenges of having that start, like I said, there was like a lot of trauma, there's a lot of like blank space memory. Like Stas and I, like we talk all the time about like, oh, that year doesn't exist to us. There's the year before, and then there's the year after. And we know that year happened, but like, you know, it's trauma memory. There's a lot of black holes in there that like we were we were very removed from from society. So like I had really in that time like lost myself. I, you know, I wasn't in the classroom anymore, and I kind of didn't feel like I knew who I was or what I wanted to do. And like obviously I was doing a very important thing. I was keeping my precious human alive and like helping her grow and you know, doing all her therapies and appointments and everything. But like I felt very lost. And so, like, kind of from that, I was like, you know what? Do you know what I can do with a sleeping baby in my lap? Is I can write. And if I can write, then I can actually take this passion project that I've been carrying for it was like five, six years at that point in time, and like turn it into something I can put out into the world. And that's what I can do. That's what I have control over. And so, like, it's kind of this like revelation that like I hadn't completely lost myself and I could like grab this thing and take this like upturned moment of my life and like use it to do something that I always wanted to do and really cared about. And that was kind of the beginning of the journey was like she was like maybe a year old, and I was like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna publish this book. And within a year, I got it out there and you know, built a lot. You know, I spent I've spent the last eight years now building this, you know, like building the Jill and Davies brand. And like I became an editor in that time and built up a client list, and I've got this world and I've got other books, and you know, things look different now because I am back in the classroom, but like all of that is still there and built at this point. And all I like, and I have a belief that like I just have to keep chipping away at it.
SPEAKER_04And thank you for sharing that really powerful story, Jill. It's relatable for me because my sister uh also had a child that was three months three months premature. Like they didn't have their, I remember their hand being the size of my thumbnail. They were so small in the NICU. And um, now he's doing great. He's an adult, he's in school. And um, it's amazing to like hear your story of that and to know that you are able to find a way to channel and transmute that trauma into something that other people can read and see themselves in and also maybe process stuff that's like happening in the world, but also in their own lives and relating to their characters. I think there's something really magical about writers. And you're not the first writer to tell me that you started got started, but like we're able to push through something very difficult that inspired your writing that then created something that other people can relate to. It's it's kind of amazing
Why Human Stories Outlast AI
SPEAKER_04what stories can do for us as a as people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think like stories are probably the most important thing that we do. Like we we got in a big discussion on a panel once about how like language as we know it exists so that we can tell stories. And we wouldn't have like the level of communication and like culture that we do if it weren't for our desire, like like you know, like hardwired into our brains to like tell stories. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It is one of the unique parts that makes us human. Stories and art. I don't I mean, maybe, maybe dogs are telling stories to each other. I don't know. Keeping them from us if they are. Yeah, Ziggy, I want to hear your story later.
SPEAKER_05And you know, that's why it's important that we keep doing this even when technologies are being invented to try to replace us. Yeah, the those technologies aren't going to be able to tell our stories. They can form the words.
SPEAKER_00They'll never create something new. But that's the thing. They're never gonna make something new. They can't tell your story. Yeah, anything that AI can make is something that has already been done by somebody else because that's all AI is. Like everybody thinks of it like because we call it artificial intelligence, we think of it as an intelligence. It's just an algorithm. It's not solving problems, it's not having a deep conversation with you, it's not generating new works, it's just regurgitating something that's already been done. Nothing will ever, nothing new will ever come from AI.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And it's soulless. Um, I was talking to somebody from my work. Actually, about AI, and they were saying about how they they use it for a lot of different things, but they stopped using it for emails because they when they would read like this version of an email, they were just like, There's no human in this anymore. Because there isn't, because it wasn't written by one. Um, and it I I wonder what it's like to be a writer in a time where, you know, there is a there is the ability to click a button and make a story, and you're choosing to continue this path of like the hard part of sitting and typing and revising. And I imagine it's emotional too to be writing some of the hard things you write about. So what's that like for you right now?
SPEAKER_00I think part of it is like I've it's never even occurred to me to like use AI. Like people will say these days, they'll say, Oh, just chat GPT it, like the way that we used to say, Google it when we were young. And like I'm just like, What? Why would I do that? Like, I never I never sat down to write to have a complete thing. And I know that that's probably feels like contradictory, but like any like for as long as I've written, I sat down to write because I wanted to write. And so, like, you know, like generating, having something generated for you is the opposite of creating something. And so, like, to me, they're not the same thing. And like, I guess, yes, somebody who wants to publish is using that soulless tool to create a product, but like I don't consider my books a product. Like, I am I'm writing a story, and that story is coming from the act of writing, and nothing can replace that. And then, yes, I finish it and I have to talk to real humans about like all the things that are wrong with it and all the ways that it are all the ways that it's bad, and then I have to fix it. And that part is not always pleasant, but the whole point was writing it. So, like, why would I skip that part? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think uh I think this this moment in time and going forward, there's gonna be a big division um between people that get into these these types of creativity for the outcome and the product of what you produce after. Uh and then there's going to be people who are doing the art and doing the creative process because that's the process and that's what they're trying to put out there as a piece of themselves. And one thing that I I think that I can have a lot of faith in is readers. Because I think unlike many other consumers of different various forms of art, I think I think readers have always been readers because they're looking for that one-on-one emotional connection with somebody telling a story. Like that's the reason why we don't have uh boardrooms and writers' rooms writing the next big um big hit. It's always one person's name on the book. It's not it's not here's a book brought to you by Skydance, you know, some some faceless room of writers that put together the most uh emotionally compelling story that you can. They want it from one person. They want that one person to tell them that story. And if readers were looking for an easier way to consume those stories and that connection, they would have given up reading a hundred years ago and just listened to the radio and watch TV and went to the movies. Books themselves have survived this long because they're not willing to compromise the medium just for the ease and speed of consuming it from any source they could. They want it directly from the source. They want to read into somebody's soul and know who they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that if anything was going to erode literature, it would have happened already. And so, like, while I feel like AI is a threat to integrity and it's a threat to the market, but it's not a threat to human storytelling. It's something we're gonna have to weather. And like, you know, will it will it destroy us? That you know, that has a lot to do with where society goes. Society is gonna do it, not the AI tool itself. Yeah um but storytelling and writing isn't going anywhere, not in this season or the next, because it's already kind of proven itself like undestroyable.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's as old as we are as a species, I'm pretty sure, which I think is around 300,000 years. So we're gonna be okay. Now, if we could have storytellers be compensated in the way that you all deserve, that would be what I would like because of the service you provide as for us as in society.
New Books And Where To Find Jill
SPEAKER_04Um I know we're coming at time, so I want to ask you, what are you speaking of like the hard work of writing, what are you working on now? What do we have, what can we look forward to and be patient for folks? Because sometimes I see people being like, why isn't the ladies thing out yet? Because you just heard the craft and the effort that goes in. So tell us what you're working on, what we can expect.
SPEAKER_00So the book I hope to be finishing drafting this summer is right now being called Grimston. And it is a creature feature family horror with a monster in an like Edgar French Bulldog skin suit. So it's it's a horror novel about a dog that's actually a monster, and there might be other monsters, and this family like unknowingly takes possession of him only to find out that something's going on. It has been so fun to write. It's so weird and creepy. It's got tons of body horror in it. And uh I was like deep in the trenches of writing it in October when I suddenly went back to work full time. And I've tried a couple times to like cram it in with my brain space. And I was so overwhelmed that I was like, I'm just gonna take a step back, I'm gonna get to summer. And I just gave myself a little bit of space to like regroup and get it done. But I am hoping to have that drafted this summer and on submission by fall. So that's the plan for that. And uh, as far as the rest of the Caramason story, the good news is that it is written the entire, so there's two more books in the series to completion. It is entirely drafted, but needs massive revision. So um it's like a it's like a positive negative thing, right? Because my intention is to um write near the final draft of both of them before I put the next book, which is called Darkling Project, into like through the paces of actually publishing it. So you're gonna have like that hard wait between book two and book three, because it's really important to me that the story's complete before I put the next book out so that I don't mess it up for you guys. Um, but that is all in the works. And it's about right now, it's largely about like making sure that I'm giving myself the creative space to like build it into the life that I'm living now. And I've done it before. Like I was feeling really intimidated right at first when I went back to work. Like, oh my God, am I even an author anymore? Like if I'm back to work full-time, but I have navigated all kinds of massive life changes and figured out how to, you know, how to take the next steps. And so this is just another version of that. And um, the whole, the main series is going to remain indie published um through its completion. I dare you to change that big five. Um, but I am, I have in the meantime, a couple things that I'm testing on submission because I think it kind of like fits the current zeitgeist, and I just wanted to try it out.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm just gonna say a thing that I usually don't comment a ton, but I am gonna say this. I've read many a bestseller, a New York Times bestseller, and many of them don't hold a candle to your Kara Mason story. So I hope that you continue to get the attention that you're reading or you're sorry, reading brain broken that your stories deserve. Um, I'm super excited to hear about this creature feature because I love when animals are a main character, especially when they sound a little bit insidious.
SPEAKER_05I'm getting some like the thing vibes a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's like the thing, uh it's like the thing, but cute, but also like very gory.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Like the thing meets good boy. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I think the thing meets good boy. It's got a little bit of like, I think I think I originally was pitching it as like Lilo and Stitch meets the thing.
SPEAKER_04So here for it. Um, but it's been really a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing the the writing that you do so that we can all enjoy it and for being the human that you are, and I hope inspiring people listening just as much as you inspired me. Um and hopefully, Dan, you can be a little easier on yourself when you see something in the news that feels creepily close to your plot line. Yeah. Thanks to this conversation.
SPEAKER_05You know, I mean, we're we're all we're all tapped in, we're all paying attention. And you know, I I feel like, you know, because because we're thinking so deeply about things, and that's what drives us to tell these stories. Like we're we're seeing it come before most people do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And Jill, if there's if there was one thing you would ask people to do in terms of where to find you and how to stay connected, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00Uh, well, like I'm on mo I'm on Instagram and TikTok. Of course, is Jill and Davies underscore books. And I've got a website, and you can subscribe to my um, what do they call it, newsletter. Subscribe to my mailing list. And every now and then I have the thought I should send out some, you know, some information. Um, my books are available everywhere. Like you can get them on bookshop.org. They are only on Audible for audiobooks because I'm doing a royalty share with my narrator. And when you do that, you lock yourself into the Audible contract. And that happened before Audible decided to lean hard into AI voices. And so, you know, she and I are very against AI voices and AI anything in publishing. But that's where you get indie books, is Audible, because a lot of the times Audible is the one that gives access for indie authors. Um and then, yeah, you can get them on Amazon. They're on Kindle Unlimited, um, because again, that's where the readers are. Um, but they are for now also requestable as EPUBs through your library if you decided to request, because they're getting distributed that way through the Kindle Unlimited permissions.
SPEAKER_04That's amazing accessibility. Thank you so much. And uh also your narrator is great, by the way. I don't remember. Can you give them a shout out? What was their name?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, her name is Samantha Norberry, and she is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm really it's actually funny you said that because I was listening to her and I was thinking this would be so much less fun without her specific voice and the way that she gives voice to the characters. So it's funny that you brought that up. Um well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for spending time with us on Zombie Book Club podcast. I hope this is another first of many conversations with you. And uh, everybody, if you're listening, the end is nigh. Please don't die. Yeah, don't die. Bye bye, everybody.
SPEAKER_05Bye bye.
SPEAKER_04Bye.