Zombie Book Club

Waves of Undead with Special Guest Rebecca Cuthbertson | Zombie Book Club Ep 131

• Zombie Book Club • Season 4 • Episode 131

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In this episode we sit down with Rebecca Cuthbertson to talk about her debut novel Waves of Undead. Set on the surf‑soaked cliffs of Tofino, the story blends a tsunami and zombie outbreak with a gritty but sometimes hilarious take on the genre. Rebecca walks us through the twin‑bond of Anna and Paul, the multi‑POV structure that gives the narrative a cinematic pulse, and her own activism at the Fairy Creek blockade which informed the novel’s environmental undercurrents.

She also shares about the realities of writing while caring for a toddler, the challenges of indie publishing, and the joy of seeing readers connect with a story that respects both nature and the horror genre. Whether you’re a fan of grounded zombie fiction or just love a good coastal thriller, this conversation offers plenty of fresh takes on the genre and some laughs along the way.



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SPEAKER_00:

The only book club where the book is a giant wave. And the zombies are surfing at like these. No, they're not. Spoilers. This information. I think I know what happens in this book. I'm fan of when I'm not hanging, and I'm writing a book about a student of cultural anthropology using their relationship building skills and knowledge of power structures. Survive a zombie apocalypse. Is there a tsunami?

SPEAKER_01:

There isn't. I mean, I could write one in. I could steal some ideas. Absolutely stealing from our guest, Rebecca Cuthwardson. Oh, she's a surfer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

With a twin named Paul.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. That's very derivative. I'm Leah, and today we are super excited to be chatting with Rebecca Cuthbertson about book one of her Undead Waters series, Waves of Undead. Rebecca grew up watching her older brother play apocalyptic games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill, which clearly left a lifelong impression and apparently a lot of zombie nightmares. Originally from Ladner, British Columbia, for you folks who don't know, that's in Canada. It actually has places called provinces. British Columbia is one of them. Rebecca spent years living in Tofino, where her love of hiking, surfing, and the rugged West Coast directly inspired the setting of this series. And yes, there's a tsunami, and yes, there are zombies, but there are not a tsunami of zombies yet, at least in book one. Rebecca now lives in the lower mainland of British Columbia with her husband and toddler. And you might also know her from Instagram, one of my favorite accounts to follow because of her survival Sundays and some very hilarious and relatable for parents reels about being a writer and being a parent of a toddler at the same time. Welcome, Rebecca. We are so happy you're here. Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. We are really, really excited that you are our first interview of 2026. Can you describe um what I saw behind you when you first popped up on video?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So to my left, I have a cardboard cutout of a zombie, and he's kind of got his arm wrapped around my shoulder on the wall. As well as a medieval tavern backdrop and a hellfire club painting. So a lot going on here.

SPEAKER_01:

It's uh like maybe a time traveling zombie because they're in a suit, or what was a suit, but in a medieval tavern.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. I think maybe um the zombie got hungry and ate his tie. It seems like he ate his tie. Like at least half of it. There's half a tie there, and it kind of just breaks off at a certain point. I think he ate it.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh did sniff you a little bit in his teeth there. Oh my gosh, yeah, I think it is. Uh, does your zombie have a name? You know, he doesn't. I did an Instagram post asking for names, and I had some really good um feedback, including Mike from accounting. Um, Roger Sandry said if he's from the ocean, Bob, if he's from the cemetery, Dougie. So I'm still deciding, but uh I will report back once he is named.

SPEAKER_01:

Will he appear possibly once he is named in a future book of yours?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I hadn't thought of that, but that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll I'll explore that further for sure. I'm team Bob for what it's worth. Team Doug. No, it's gotta be waterlogged. Bob Dougie. There you go. You know what? Cemeteries can flood in a tsunami. That's true. Recently buried, Bob Douglas.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's how they get out. That's how they get out. The ground gets sauce. They flow it up through the mud. There you go.

SPEAKER_02:

There is a quaint little um cemetery in Tefino, so I I could potentially write that in.

SPEAKER_01:

What does a quaint cemetery look like to the folks who maybe don't? I get that, but what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02:

Small and lots of moss-covered um headstones. And some to the point where you like you can't even read what's on them. Is it old? Yeah, yeah. I'd say it's more like early to mid-1900s. The ones that I saw, anyways. There might be some newer ones there. I'm not sure if they ship them out now, but that's how I picture Quaint too.

SPEAKER_01:

I definitely don't picture like a modern cemetery. It's gotta be old and mossy. Moss is a lovamohie cemetery. Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00:

Lots of that in Vermont. Uh we have some rapid fire questions. Um, and we will judge you based on your answers to these questions. What do you choose? Do you choose a tsunami or a zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_02:

I would probably choose a slower zombie apocalypse. If it was fast zombies, I'm I'm out, I'm done for. But uh tsunami is like if you don't have a way to high ground or like a higher level on a building, you like your chance of getting like drowning or getting bashed into a tree or something like that is astronomical. But if it's like slow shambling zombies, then I could probably make a break for it and survive.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm gonna go zombie. I love that answer. And we're gonna go back to the original because I have to ask, would you choose a 40-hour work week?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I apocalypse. Because I'm a mom, I would choose the 40-hour work week. It would be super hard for me to go back to work because I am a stay-at-home mom and author by nap time. So yeah, going back to a nine to five would be painful, but I gotta keep that little guy alive.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's fair. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I think I think uh uh a vast majority of people who choose the 40-hour work week is is because they want to keep their family alive.

SPEAKER_01:

The sacrifices we make.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, you just look at your kid and just be like, you know, if it weren't for you, I'd have chosen zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh you are in the midst of a zombie outbreak. They're all over the place. Um I g you know, I guess I guess they're slow. They're slow zombies. They're shambling along. You know what? They're medium speed zombies. It's right in the middle. It's like you kind of have to jog away every now and then, but you don't have to fall out spread. Um, just every now and then you're like, oh, I gotta get out of here. Uh but, anyways, you're on an island just off the coast. Uh, do you stay on the island or do you paddle for the mainland?

SPEAKER_02:

I guess that would depend on what kind of like foliage and fauna there are on the island. Like if I can hunt, gather, grow. I mean, I don't know if I have a stash of seeds, but if I could survive there, I might try to. But uh if if there's not a lot of resources, then I might paddle for it.

SPEAKER_01:

I think what's under the surface there, pun intended, uh is sorry, I'm gonna use a lot of stupid water puns this entire conversation. Uh, is like on an island, I'm imagining that that's a finite number of zombies. You can just kill them and like you said, keep going. It might still be a big number though. An island can be, I mean, Vancouver Island, how many people live on Vancouver Island? I don't know, but it's literally the size of the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it's it's a large island.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so that really is not that different from the mainland at that point. I don't think you're gonna be able to kill them all.

SPEAKER_00:

That would take years. Yeah. But if you were like in the Florida Keys or something. On one of the keys? Yeah, on one of the keys. And uh yeah, you might you might be able to wipe them out. There'd still be a couple hundred though. It'd be a tall order. Uh is there zombies on the mainland or just on the island? We don't know. Communications are down. Yeah. Of course. There's no way to know. All you've got is a surfboard in your hands. Great weapon. We also don't know how far away mainland is, so uh good luck. Oh, I feel like you would know that. Mainland island. I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm gonna try to stick to the island. I think I'm Team Island too. This is a new one just for you, so that was fun. Um a classic, because we're gonna have another apocalyptic chop challenge this summer. Um, one unlimited shelf stable item that you find in a warehouse, you're gonna you and your toddler now, um, and if your husband, your husband, if he survived, your partner, um, is available for you all to eat for eternity. What do you pick?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I wanted to throw a curveball at you guys with this one and say the cans that my toddler has peeled the label off of. So it's like a roulette of canned goods every time. But uh I I think I would go with like a canned beef and barley soup so that I have you know three different food groups. I've got meat, vegetables, grains, low sodium because those things are yeah, we need salt, but like those canned soups can be like hefty with the salt.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's a first, and that'll be a fun one to include. I do love the uh the peeled can though. You can use that one if you want. You can use both. You'll get well, you'll get two for yours.

SPEAKER_00:

I think we're gonna have to do like a peeled can food roulette at some point.

SPEAKER_01:

We were actually talking about um, we have this like fantasy, obviously you are invited, Rebecca, of having like a zombie apocalypse campout situation. And one of the activities would be like we get a bunch of cans of things and uh peel off the labels, and then like you get a random assortment and you have to figure out what to do with it. Would you are would you like to come to that?

SPEAKER_00:

I am so there. So well, you might get like um uh refried beans and apricots. I don't think that's the worst. You could sweeten it. That's true. That's true. I haven't had the apricot in a really long time.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh last rapid fire question, so one of our new favorites, which is you happen upon a working solar-powered DVD player and a single box set that just happens to be the thing that you would love to watch if you had only one choice for the rest of your life. What do you pick?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm giving you guys a lot of multiple answers on these, but I'll try to be definitive. Um, today is JRR Tolkien's birthday. My heart would love to say the Lord of the Rings excess extended editions, but being that it's a zombie apocalypse and things are dire and grim and we're fighting for our lives, I'd have to go with uh Parks and Wreck because I need something lighthearted and funny. And there's a lot of seasons of it. I love Parks and Wreck. How many seasons are there? I don't remember. I want to say seven, six or seven.

SPEAKER_00:

I thought, okay, yeah, it was a great show. I do like the idea of uh Lord of the Lord of the Rings, even in a zombie apocalypse, because like you need you need that hope in the darkness story, like you need the the stories of of heroism from uh you know Aragorn and his pals. You need those things to keep you keep you going, I think. But I think uh also like keeping it light is also kind of a good idea.

SPEAKER_01:

Would you in the zombie apocalypse if if you happen to have not your choice of parks and rec, but the extended cut of all three Lord of the Rings, plus I'm gonna give you the Hobbit, so you got it all. Would that be a relief from the zombie apocalypse? Like, would you watch that and be like, well, at least I'm not going to Mordor while there's zombies banging at your door?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, definitely. If I could uh shelter in, you know, and not have to travel through all that treachery. Um I would probably stick to the fellowship of the ring more so because you just get that like happy, cozy feeling in the Shire and the start of the adventure as it progresses to actually go to Mordor, then Yeah, you just pause it when Frodo leaves the Shire.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're just like, okay, we're done with that part. We're going back to the beginning.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the party. Sounds like if I take one more step, this will be the farthest away from home I've ever been, and then I just rewind it.

SPEAKER_01:

That would be perfect. Um, we actually just watched that movie and we tried to convince um Dan's brother who lives with us, Simon, to watch the next one with us. And he said, No, Rebecca, can you imagine the audacity? Has he seen it before? Yes. Oh, that's rude. He said it was too long. I'm like, that's the point. Right?

SPEAKER_02:

It's a commitment, but it's a good one.

SPEAKER_00:

He says he's been um consuming way too much short form media and now can't take anything longer than like a 30-minute show. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_01:

It happens to us all. Well, let's get into your book, um, which we're super excited to be talking about with you today. I've got it here um with some parts that I've marked as like really great zombie core moments that I love. For the listeners who are new to Waves of Undead, could you give us a quick rundown of what it's all about?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so it's about a zombie outbreak and a tsunami that strikes simultaneously on the shores of Tefino. Tefino is the uh surfing capital of Canada and a huge tourist destination here. So a lot of people locally know that setting. Um, and it follows the protagonist Anna Zusin as she travels to Tefino to try to rekindle a romantic relationship with her former boyfriend Harvey. Uh so the book is like multi-point of view. It primarily follows Anna and her brother Paul, uh, as well as Anna's friend Skylar, Harvey.

SPEAKER_01:

Um yeah, lots of other characters getting their zombie action on there. Children too. That was a fun surprise when we had some children point of view come in.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, how much did your own fear of like zombies and or a tsunami play into the combination? This this is like a wild combination of events at the same time.

SPEAKER_02:

Quite a bit, yeah. So as you mentioned, uh watching my brother play Resident Evil as we grew up, um, I had a lot of nightmares and still do to this day. I had, I believe it was seven zombie dreams in 2025 that I remembered. You document ones that I filtered out. Yeah. Do you have like a dream journal where you're like, here's my zombie dream? I posted most of them on Instagram, but I don't have them like collectively in one place, but I should do that. But uh yeah, it's definitely based on my own personal fears and a way to process that. Um, as they say, writing is cheaper than therapy. But uh and I've had lots of tsunami nightmares too. Um but yeah, for the for the zombies, there is one chapter in here um in the gas station that is literally based off a nightmare that I had, like almost word for word.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. I know I I don't know how much I can say about that part. I I don't think it's too spoilery. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So um this girl is working in a gas station and she wants to drink a slushie. And her, I guess, manager is just totally power tripping. And he says, You can have the slushie if you go and get these oranges from outside. And he throws three oranges out the door where there's zombies shambling about in between the uh gas pumps. And so she's like goes out and gathers these oranges and picks some blackberries for him. That's what he sent her for, too, pick the blackberries and use the oranges as weapons.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's just kind of like what a jerk because you the oranges are also food. What are you doing, dude? Yeah, he was a weirdo. And so were you the person in the dream who had to go pick the oranges up? Yes. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It was a pretty vivid one.

SPEAKER_00:

Was this book inspired by these nightmares? Or was what was the moment when you decided, like, I'm writing this? Like, how did that start?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't remember like the exact moment that I decided to write this book, but I I knew that I wanted to combine two different dangers, two different elements. Um, just there's so many zombie stories, and each of them has their own like amazing aspects to them. I grew up in South Delta outside of Vancouver, and it's known as Hollywood North. And that area is um there's a lot of different movies that are filmed there, um, as well as in Tofino. And so I love this aspect of like having a locally set zombie apocalypse um and you know, not taking place in New York or Atlanta or LA, whereas many other zombie apocalypse do. Um, sorry, I'm totally rambling here. No, you're not, please.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you're more yes, we want to ramble.

SPEAKER_00:

I you know, uh to to jump in, um, it made me think about something that we've heard from other authors who base their books in uh in specific places, is that like they get invited to come to those places, like either to talk to school children or go to the local library and do book signings. Um are you being invited to Tofino to come like hang out on the beach and sign books?

SPEAKER_02:

I haven't been. Um, I do dream of going there someday and specifically like making content and maybe even doing like a Patreon or something like that, where I'm actually reading parts of the book in the scenes where they are in the locations where they take place. Um, but I haven't had any invitations. Actually, I was really terrified when I released this book that there would be like kind of a witch hunt of like, she's bringing zombies into our home. Like this is unacceptable. But I've had actually quite the opposite reaction from both the uh tofino side of things as well as the mainland side of things to the point where I had zombies walking through somebody's farm here locally, and I've now received an invitation to that farm. Oh. Nice.

SPEAKER_00:

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If they had a problem with it, that'd be kind of ridiculous to me. Uh everybody wants to wants to, um, I mean, maybe not everybody, but like when you see your your town or someplace that you know uh portrayed in in fiction and regardless of what it is, I think it's exciting. Uh people get excited about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. You've mentioned in um a couple of your reels about vending locally that you get two reactions when you describe your book. Do you want to share a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so um I do that same pitch that I say it's about a zombie outbreak and a tsunami that strikes simultaneously into Fino. And there's usually a pause, and then people will either burst into laughter and say, Yes, I I would like a copy of that or tell me more, or they just like grimace and go like that's not for me, and like shuffle away.

SPEAKER_00:

Shuffle like a zombie away, like totally. Yeah, we've met a lot of the it's not for me people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, strangely enough, we met a lot of them at Living Dead weekend. Like a lot of people are just there like perusing, I think. And it's like, do you like zombies? And they're like, eh, not really.

SPEAKER_01:

What are you doing here? I know, very strange. That's bizarre. Just hanging out at the mall, I guess. But mostly zombie aficionados. Like there were just a few who were like, oh, I like horror in general. Like the test was there were a few that I was like, what's your favorite George A. Romero movie? And they were like, um, and then they just sort of looked at me and I was like, oh, okay. Maybe you're here with your friend or something. I don't know. Could be, yeah. Um, so tell us what the kinds of zombies we're dealing with in this world. What makes them unique? And how good at surfing are they?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh they are terrible at surfing. In fact, they're probably not the best swimmers. They would just bob or uh sink. But uh yeah, these zombies, I would say they're mostly slow to medium speed. Like you could run away from them, but there are exceptions to that, which we will explore um biologically why that is in book two Depths of Undead. I love that. So there's a couple like real fast rage zombies.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you have a zombie that you follow all the way from initial um infection to the very end of the book, who is a unique zombie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, Rocket. He's our fast zombie. So he's like turbo speed, like you do not want to get caught in his uh prey drive because chances you'll get away are very slim.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean was well chosen.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Did he always know that he was gonna be a fast zombie? And he's just like, I'm gonna be Rocket, and then it'll make sense when I'm dead. It was destined. It's like race car drivers that call themselves Crash.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I also loved in the book like you had so many different names for zombies. So the first time, if I remember correctly, the first time is like maybe I'm not sure if it's Anna or which character it is like that's zombies. Um and that was I was like, oh, okay, zombies are real in this world. But then there was like creepers, Deddies, if I remember correctly, um, demons. That was a really interesting one to have that lens. I was like, oh, I guess that is a totally valid interpretation of what you're seeing as demons. Uh, and some others. What inspired you or what made it feel important to you that zombies are like a reference point that exists in this world, but also that some people aren't calling them that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I chose to do different um different names for them because people would have different interpretations of them. So somebody who's familiar with like zombie media would know this is a zombie. I gotta do a headshot to take them down. Like if I they bite me, I'm screwed. Whereas the people who are referring to them as demons, it's like an elderly couple who are like in their car. Um, they like have no concept of what's going on except that these demons are running amok, like hurting people. Uh the deaddies is um from a child's point of view. So it all just depends on yeah, the the character's interpretation of what's happening around them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Like the the the older couple that calls them demons might be the same people that showed up at Living Dead weekend and was like, what's a George Romero movie?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they're the parent that took their son.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um or daughter. They've never seen a zombie movie. They're like, it's just not for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Um, so there are a lot of characters in this book. Um, we'll talk about a few of them, but the one that feels relatively central is Anna Zeusen. So there's Anna and Paul, they're twins. Anna is, I think, the most frequent perspective that we get, although you could correct me if I'm wrong about that. Um, I think that's correct. Yeah. Tell us about Anna. Like, what are the top three things people would need to know about her?

SPEAKER_02:

She's grieving. Um, so her and Paul's mother have passed recently, and that's why she kind of up and left Harvey. So she's grieving both the loss of her mother and now like kind of the crumbling of her relationship. So she's having a rough go. Um, she is surprisingly good with a gun. Uh like, yeah, really, really amazing aim. And she loves trees. She's uh wants to yeah, live in nature and hang out with trees.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, she's a very relatable character for me, probably because of the tree part. I can't shoot a gun. Um, or rather, I haven't since I was 12. So not good at that. And I definitely can't surf for context. A lot of these characters are actually surfers. So either if you are a surfer, you'll enjoy it. And if you're not, you get to kind of pretend you are one for a minute. That's what it felt like to me. Except for every time they pop up on the board to standing, I just think like I could never. Um, but also I think being a surfer would be advantageous in terms of fitness level for the apocalypse.

SPEAKER_02:

Definitely. And sorry, I laughed because I could not do a proper pop-up either. I I do the like slow crawl onto my knees and then like shuffle up. So yeah, I I'm not a proper surfer, but I did surf it.

SPEAKER_01:

You can, I mean, I don't think I'd get up at all, Rebecca. I can't even pop up out of bed. No. In fact, I celebrate every day when I get out of bed. I'm like, I did it.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh something that I really liked was uh the multiple viewpoints. Um that it it felt it felt kind of like it felt like a movie or a TV show where like you're cutting away from something that's happening going to somebody else, and like that's that's how you're tying the story together. Um was that something that you planned to do right from the beginning, or did you uh did it kind of develop as you went along?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so when I first started writing the book, I was reading um a song of ice and fire or the Game of Thrones book series, um, for those who haven't read it. Um, and that is like heavily multi-point of view, like an astronomical amount of I don't know if I pronounced that word right, a large number of things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Someone will correct us on the internet if it's not writing than speaking, but there are many points of view there. Um and so that kind of influenced where I was at, and then having it feel like a movie, that is um sort of the intention, as this is my very roundabout way of fulfilling many dreams. Um, so growing up as a teenager, it was my dream to be a costume designer and also like work in the film industry. Like, I think I realized at one point I want to wear the costumes, not make the costumes. Um, I've always dreamed of being a zombie extra on a movie. And so one day when I'm finished writing the series, I hope for this to turn into a book or television series. And I have big plans for that where I will participate in the costume design as well as get to be my zombie.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, they'll have cameos. That's a great goal. Yes. I'm team TV series for this book because I've only read one book, but there's a full, like there's a full season here, in my opinion, that would be really awesome to follow. And it's very messy. And I don't mean um the writing. The writing is excellent, it's really fast-paced, it's very easy to just like you can't really put it down, kind of a book, but it's relationally messy. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of weird love triangles. Um, they're all connected or not connected, they have varying agendas with each other, and you don't really know um throughout the whole book how things are gonna shake out. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there is definitely a lot of uh a lot of things going on there. Like Anna has returned to try to rekindle that relationship with Harvey. Meanwhile, she has a friend who is their neighbor who has um potentially some secret feelings for her. We've got uh this new love interest who's showing up on Harvey's doorstep the moment that Anna arrives there. So she's kind of taken aback, like, who the heck is this woman at my door? Um, yeah, so there's there's a lot going on there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there were points where I was like, okay, am I team Anna and Harvey, which would be the original couple, even though we don't see them together because they're separated. Or do I think that Anna should give Skylar a try? Or am I team Kat and Harvey? Or do I actually hate Kat? There were a few moments where I thought about I maybe I don't like this person, more than a few actually. Um, although maybe I think there could be some redemption for Kat. We'll see. Um, but then I had a moment where I was like, maybe Skylar and Kat can just get together, and then Anna and Harvey can get together, and everybody gets to be happy. So I was already picturing your merch, um, like your team Anna and Harvey merch. I love that.

SPEAKER_00:

I yeah. Hopefully everybody um ends up happy in the end and nobody, nobody dies.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I I'm gonna just say I will not guarantee any happily ever afters.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's you know, that's another thing too, is that like you like the the cutting away and the messiness of the interpersonal relationships, it all makes it it gives us the very accurate impression that there are no such thing as sacred characters. There's even a point where Leah thought that the main character was going to die, which is why we don't we're not even sure if she's the main character. Because maybe, maybe she will. We don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

In one of the three books, she could. And that's the beauty of the book is like she could, but there would still be many stories to tell. I'd prefer if you didn't, but I'm not the writer. So um, but that there are many perspectives that you get attached to, and then things happen, and I appreciate that because sometimes books and zombie movies can just make one person or two people like impossible to be uh actually at risk, and nobody ever feels safe in your story.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I can't guarantee safety for anybody at this point. Um, at one point I did think that Anna would be dying in book three, but I currently am on the fence. So time will tell. I did have somebody buy my book who uh they said, like, do you kill your characters? Because I'll get too attached. Please promise me you're not gonna kill your main characters. And I I think I told her I wouldn't, but I'm sorry if you're listening to this lady. I'm I might kill my main characters. So you'll have to read and find out.

SPEAKER_00:

Anything to sell a book. Like, yeah, everything's fine. It's uh it's one of those stories where everyone has a happy ending.

SPEAKER_01:

Go ahead and what's it like to be your own cliffhanger when you don't know what you're going to do?

SPEAKER_02:

It's fun because like I'm I'm a discovery writer. Um, I don't plot too much. Like, oh, you can't probably can't see it, but I have a poster here with um sticky notes with all of the beginning of book two, and I also did one with all of the end of book two, but I leave that middle to discover things. So I like having some room for my characters to surprise me and for the story to surprise me, and that makes it super exciting for me while I'm writing it. Um yeah, I never know where how they're gonna get from A to B, but they get there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I can I can relate. I didn't realize it had a name. Uh I just I just think it's like chaos and I'm not in control. Um, but like Discovery is very apt for what it is because it's it is like you're like you're hearing the story for the first time, like you know how it ends, but you're like, but how do we get there? We'll find out. And it's almost like you're reading it while you're writing. Totally.

SPEAKER_02:

And I have like, you know, some key plot points for even like book three that you know, I know where the story is gonna go as a whole, but gotta leave some room for surprise.

SPEAKER_01:

It stresses me out. I've officially, as an observer of many writers now, you all just you you stress me out. The chaos writers are like it terrifies me. Um, but I love the results, so thanks for suffering for us readers. My pleasure. Or be like maybe it's not suffering. I'm just assuming it's suffering because it looks Dan makes it look like suffering. Are you having fun the whole time, Rebecca? Or are there parts where it hurts?

SPEAKER_02:

There's parts where it hurts for sure. Um specifically when characters do get hurt. You know, you write that and it hurts your readers when they experience it once. When you're editing, um, you have to relive that over and over and over again. So there's definitely parts where it hurts. And then there's also just the aspect of problem solving because you write your characters into these problems and issues that it's like, now I have to be smart enough to get this person out of this situation. And that can be quite a challenge. There's been lots of times where I've gone to my husband and said, like, I've written myself in a corner, what am I gonna do? Or, you know, just had some sheer frustration, but then, you know, go for a walk or work on something else for a little bit, and you get to this aha moment, and it's just this moment of like satisfaction that makes all of that like chaos and pain worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00:

I I find that sometimes it helps to delete 50,000 words.

SPEAKER_02:

That'll do it too. Yeah, I rewrote Waves of Undead a couple of times and had a lot of false starts. And uh yeah, I started with you know, Anna Intofino and she was with Harvey. Oh.

SPEAKER_01:

And then it completely changed. So wow. So there is potentially a prequel that's just sitting in your computer. I think I may have deleted a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

I do have some notebooks with um just like little scene snippets, but I think a lot of it has gone to its grave.

SPEAKER_00:

Never to be seen again. Yeah. I mean, when when things change so much, like uh I mean some of it can be reused, but not definitely not all of it, because like especially in your in your case where it's like the relationship is entirely different, the entire beginning, like that's gone. It's different now. Like it's it's an alternate universe.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, right, because they would have been together during the apocalypse. That's a good point. That's a very different world and set of problems to solve. Um, at what point did you decide that it would be twins at the center?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, so that was kind of a nod to my brother and myself. We aren't twins, but um But you wear similar clothes. Yeah. Um, you know, as they say, like a lot of authors self-insert into their characters, and I I very much did.

SPEAKER_00:

Um Rebecca's um holding up the book cover, which shows Anna with a very long braid. Um, Rebecca also has a very long braid. Uh kind of somewhat similar, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I self-inserted quite a bit there. And uh my brother, you know, we have a really um special, like important relationship. He's one of my best friends, and we were very close growing up as well. Um, and at one point we were a similar height and we um pretended to be twins to get into a boys and girls club. I don't even remember why. I think I was too young to go to their preteen area or something. So we pretended to be twins. So I haven't told anyone this, but it's kind of a nod to that.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. How mischievous of you two, diabolical even. Um, I really appreciated it because I was actually like racking my brain, and maybe you two can think of some, but I really couldn't think of another zombie story that is that is about siblings. Like it's often about found family, it's about romance, and like absolutely that exists in your story too. But the fact that it's about twins and about their relationship and like even from afar, because Paul is on the mainland, um, they're trying to take care of each other was really something special to see.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thank you. I I can't think of any others that involve twins or siblings either, but sure they're out there. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, like I gotta be one. There's gotta be some out there, but I certainly haven't seen it on the mainstream stage of any zombie show we've watched or movie. Like it's just not for whatever reason, um sibling dynamics are not explored that often. And I think that there's a lot there. I actually just had a huge argument with my brother today. So it was great. It ended well, as it always does with us. Um, but we're gonna be able to do that. I was picturing, I was like, this is what would happen. My brother and I would be calling each other and being like, Are you okay? What's going on? Like that's very real, even though we might sound like you and your brother get along very well. My brother and I have a um Dan, you describe it. Um briefly.

unknown:

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01:

I love hate relationships. Yeah. More of a typical, maybe I'm making an assumption that it's more typical that siblings can be can be catty with each other, but more like that. But in an apocalypse, or like something goes wrong, we'll be there for each other in a heartbeat. And so it just felt very relatable. And I hadn't honestly thought about that particular scenario before. So it was just nice to in sort of self-insert and think about what that would be like.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's uh a different dynamic, and you know, there's so many about love interests, and uh there are the odd ones about parent-child, but yeah, it's it's definitely a different relationship to explore.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, another relationship I want to explore is uh Rocket and the fact that so Rocket, just some backstory, or you know what? I'm not gonna give the backstory. You should. Who is Rocket when we first meet him?

SPEAKER_02:

Rocket is a social media, extreme sports influencer, adrenaline junkie of sorts. He's constantly streaming and he just loves himself and being in the limelight and nothing against people who do. It's just that that's Rocket.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, nothing against them, but in this case, um, they is this a spoiler if I say that they are partially responsible for causing the zombie apocalypse without saying why or how?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, no, I don't think that's a spoiler.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So we have this sort of virtue signaling moment with a very popular social media influencer, and he's a part of how the zombies happen. And it made me wonder if there was um uh something there that you were exploring about our society today.

SPEAKER_02:

There's definitely a lot of virtue signaling that goes on online, and so I think it was kind of a nod to that of you know, um, if you're gonna preach something, follow through with it, make a difference, don't do it for likes or for your own ego.

SPEAKER_00:

I I really liked that because um I feel like if a zombie apocalypse happened, like absolutely Mr. Beast would make a video about it. Uh so like have having that in the story and having it have such proximity to the outbreak, it's like, yeah, that would happen. Who's Mr. Beast? And I'm already feeling like, wait, do you know who Mr.

SPEAKER_02:

Beast is, Rebecca? You know, I've seen a couple of his videos. I know the name. I I think he's does he have no Wi-Fi in his room or something? I might be thinking of someone else. No, I'm thinking of somebody who eats only liver. Maybe it's the world we live in.

SPEAKER_00:

Um no, uh Mr. Beast is a very popular YouTuber and he's always um making videos about certain things. Like uh the the the thing that I know him most for is like uh many years ago he was doing a thing where he was uh um getting people to donate to uh a charity organization that was planting trees. So he was he th he like made enough to plant like about a hundred billion trees. I don't know how many trees it was, but it was an insane amount of trees, and it's like who's planting these trees? Where are they coming from and where are they going? Um yeah, yeah, he's just been around for a long time and he's one of the top YouTubers. So I feel like zombie apocalypse happens, he's gonna be there, he's gonna plant a tree.

SPEAKER_01:

And he's absolutely gonna say like and subscribe. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think it's a critique that we need at this moment in time in our society. Like, I know you started the this book 10 years ago. Like, was Rocket already a part of it 10 years ago, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, Rocket was uh was in there throughout. And you know, it's kind of funny and like almost hypocritical because you know, here I am using social media on the daily to promote things as well. So it's it's something that's so like intertwined in our society and it's hard to escape when you're you know running a business or doing something like that. But uh but there is definitely a way that it can be done um with positivity and yeah, not jumping on, you know, I don't want to say bandwagons, but yeah, if you're posting about the zombie apocalypse for your own benefit, then you know that's definitely not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01:

If it's trending, you know. There's certainly lots of people who do that. And I think the commentary on virtual on I now can't say virtue signaling either. Virtue signaling. Um, first of all, gonna say I am not um innocent, I'm sure at some point I've done that. And secondly, I think that it we do live in a world where like it's a lot about like what you show and not about necessarily who you are or the real difference you make and the intentionality behind it, like you said. Because there's lots of great accounts. I mean, frankly, please keep posting. I love your survival Sundays when you post them. I was very excited that was part of your 2026 revolution revolution. Resolution. Um, but there are other people who, um, and again, I've I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself, that can use social media as a way of like taking a big problem and then making it a way to promote themselves or to make themselves feel better in the moment about a real issue, um, when there are actually tangible things that they could do. So I think it's a very fair critique and a reminder for all of us that like just posting about stuff on the internet, especially for Clout is not actually going to solve problems like pollution in the world. So that's my soapbox. You don't have to say it. You don't have to agree or say anything, Rebecca. That's what made me think about.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Thank you. I do agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So you mentioned that you at times are a bit of a self-insert as Anna, and particularly her love of trees, you just mentioned. And I was thinking about this with the virtue signaling, is you have actually been on the ground protecting old growth forests before. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because you've had you've shared just little clips about it on social media.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so here in Canada, um, or British Columbia specifically, there's, I think, the stat at the time in 2021 when the Fairy Creek blockade was at its um like biggest that it was, uh, there's about 3% of Canada's big tree old growth forests remaining. And 3%. Wow. And that's big tree old growth. So a lot of the forest is considered old growth, but it'll be like sparse, not your old growth of giant cedars and Douglas fir and those like, you know, 300-foot-tall 10 people to wrap their arms around big trees. It's like there's different levels of old growth, but about 3% remaining. And the Fairy Creek watershed near Port Renfrew on Vancouver Island was actively being logged, is the last intact watershed on Vancouver Island. And so there is a huge to try and protect and preserve it. And I believe it was the largest act of Canadian civil disobedience, having all these blockaders go up into the logging roads. There's multiple camps there, people, you know, locking their arms into holes that with rebar in the road and chaining themselves to trees, people living in trees, um, a huge network of a headquarters where people would bring donations of food and medical supplies and you know, these necessities to keep these people sustained, um, yeah, in their plight against the RCMP and the logging industry. And uh so I did go there. I spent about 30 days over the course of five visits and uh did my part to try and protect that sacred land and had some incredible experiences there and met some really amazing people.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's incredible. And uh it shows up a lot in the way you describe the place, like the parts where I think there's a part where Anna's flying into Tofino and she sees the parts that have been cut down. Um oh, I just want to have a whole conversation about trees now.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's just talk about trees. Yeah, let's do it. You know, I I I don't know much about the old growth forest, but it's something that I remember a uh mycologist that I was um reading books about and learning from, um, talking about uh Paul Stametz who loves mushrooms, goes on to the old growth forest and uh finds um mushrooms and uh certain artifacts that uh like showed that people long ago were also collecting these mushrooms, like stuff that people hadn't seen before. And like when you cut down these old growth forests, like that stuff disappears, like entire um ecosystems and plants and wildlife and um my colour uh micorial life forms of mushrooms um uh like disappear before we even know that they exist.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. Yeah, like you know, it's one thing to replant trees after you've cut them down, but when you're clear-cutting old growth forests, you're not going to recreate that ecosystem again. You're gonna create a false version of it to cut to cut down again in a couple hundred years. So, like not to say that I'm against logging in its entirety, because obviously we need timber, we need to build and have you know, survive. It's it's integral to our species, but there are practices that can be implemented to do it in a responsible manner so that you're not destroying those ecosystems and taking away these places that are you know sacred to some cultures and that you know, I want my son to be able to see these trees that it takes our entire family to wrap our arms around. And you know, if they keep chopping them down, they're not gonna have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01:

I've never seen a tree like that in real life. It's a dream of mine. I've never been to the West Coast, Rebecca, which is like I mean, it's of Canada. I've been to California. Sorry, Americans, that doesn't count. I'm talking about British Columbia. Um, my great-grandfather lived out there. I've always really wanted to go, and like the idea of just standing beneath one of these trees is just that makes me emotional. So I can't even imagine. And I'm really glad that you and so many others stood up in that moment to protect them. So just thank you. Uh, and I think it's a good example of the opposite of Rocket. Um, I'm curious if there is anything that you, and you can think about this for a minute, uh, if there's anything like that you learned from that time that seeped its way in some way into this book.

SPEAKER_02:

Good question. I I don't think that there's a lot of influences from my experience there in this book necessarily, but there will be in the future. Um, so Waves of Undead covers the first 48 hours, or it covers about 48 hours. And so it's just the beginning of the apocalypse. So we haven't yet gotten into um, you know, people coming together to form communities for survival and stuff like that. Um, but that was something that was quite amazing to witness when I was there. And you had an episode um a few weeks back about it was like the 10 archetypes. Oh, the survivor roles.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, survivor roles. So a lot of that um overlapped with what I was witnessing at Fairy Creek. So um, you know, I actually have some notes here. There's the frontline responders that would be people who are bringing donations and distributing them to various camps, um, who are people who are locking their arm into the road to you know defend the trees. Um, there's weavers, people who would be on the social media teams drawing in people to the blockade, experimenters, people who are designing hard blocks and tripods and digging trenches and things. So I did witness a lot of um things that could inspire a future apocalyptic or dystopian story. Um yeah, so I'll I'll definitely be taking that into account uh for future projects.

SPEAKER_00:

That's really exciting. Yeah, that's uh it's it is kind of amazing how these things just kind of naturally happen and when when you see it happen uh organically. Uh and then you know, you have something like these the survival roles that we talked about, like seeing it seeing it like make sense on paper versus like what you actually saw and like being able to cor uh corroborate like that this is a real thing. It's it's kind of exciting. Yeah, it was uh the greatest adventure of my life and you know, I kind of hope the only one, but yeah, something that I find really attractive about the zombie apocalypse, and it's partially the reason why I would say uh zombie apocalypse over 40 hour work week is I I feel like nature gets to reclaim itself. Like things like the old growth forest would continue to grow old with you know, most of the population being zombies. And a new old growth uh forest would uh would spring up for future generations. Um with a with a smaller uh number of people to impact the world. And uh maybe some of the things that we're doing to the planet might possibly reverse itself if uh if you know seven and a half or so billion of us turned into zombies.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, that's quite a consequence. It's like I don't know, consequence side effect. Yeah I feel like that's you know, it's like the silver lining of it, you know, we had the pandemic, same thing. We saw you know, animals in places they hadn't been in years and a lot of resurgence of um other than human organisms doing their thing and having a much better time than dealing with us. But I do I I always feel like it's required to at least say once every podcast that I don't actually want seven and a half billion people to die. We're not team Thanos, but exactly. Exactly. I think it is possible to thrive. Um Thanos had some good points. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00:

I actually haven't seen I haven't actually seen that movie.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh no. This is the danger of this is like everything's clippable and you could clip just that damn and we're canceled. Uh Rebecca, I since you were thinking about those roles um and you during your time with the blockade, is there one that you felt like you leaned into the most sort of intuitively, or was it really situational to the moment when you were there?

SPEAKER_02:

Definitely situational to the moment. Like every trip that I had there, um, I was acting in different roles. So they would do kind of like a task call at the beginning or every evening as new people would arrive, they would, you know, hire, not hire, they would ask who wants to work in the kitchen, who wants to lock into hard blocks. And um yeah, everybody volunteered to do different things. And so each each little stint that I did there was very different. But I would say the three that most resonated with me um from your episode there was frontline responder, uh, disruptor, and storyteller.

SPEAKER_01:

That feels right, even in the way you've written your book. So I love that. Um, but I also think it's a really great reminder that we can have impulses, but the situation may call for us to lean into different ones at different times. When we did that recording, I hadn't yet participated in a course, like a 90-minute webinar with the creator of those roles. This, I think it's the social change ecosystem model. Um, and so I had a little bit more a rigid idea of it, but in actuality, exactly what you described is what she's talking about, that it's about sort of knowing what your default is, or you know, your multiple defaults, but also in a moment you might say, oh, actually, right now I need to try and lean into being more of a visionary for us to move forward. So it is cool. And I think it's exciting to hear that when people need to, they come together. Um, and that's also the part of the zombie apocalypse genre that I love is that moment of people coming together and solving things together. So your lived experience of that, whether it's obvious in the first book or not, I think it's um it has to have filtered into those situations, even when, oh, I can't tell you. Oh, it's a spoiler. Leave that in. There's a thing that happens that I think is related to the rules that I'll tell Rebecca after we're done recording.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I wanted to go back to uh what you were saying about Anna, about how uh she's she's really good at shooting. Um she she owns she owns a gun. Uh she's she's pretty good with it. Um there's there's some guns in the story. Um, but what you know, like here in here in the US, um anyone, as long as you're not a felon, can have a gun. Uh and you don't like there's there's really no rules. Um out, you can give them to a baby.

SPEAKER_01:

Um you can leave them in your house unlocked.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean loaded with the safety off. You know, some some states have limitations for um uh for magazine sizes where others don't. So you just go to those states and you buy your illegal magazines or just don't tell the government about it. Anyways, uh my question is like you know, things are different in Canada and especially in the UK where it's like not legal at all. Um what do you do you know what it takes to actually legally own a firearm in Canada? And what's how is it different from what you see Americans doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah, I do know what it takes. I have my firearms license. Um you have to have a license? Yes. Yeah. It is discussed in the book. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So there is a surprising amount of guns in uh in that book for you know being in Canada, but some of the characters are hunters or they're near a hunting store when the um apocalypse begins. So very convenient for them. But uh yeah, to get your firearms license here in Canada, there is um there is testing and certification. So you have to go through when I did it, um, it was paired with my hunting license as well, which I'm not actively using either of them currently. This was when I lived in Tovino and I was with people who are hunters, and that was the lifestyle with them. But uh yeah, it was like a two-weekend course for the hunting license and the firearms license. And then it's something that um does have to get renewed. I believe it's annually. I just got the letter from the RCMP saying I have to renew, or no, it's it's not annually, it's every couple of years. But and then there's multi there's different levels for your firearms license. There's um restricted, non-restricted, and can't remember the other one. The other one is well prohibited. That's the opposite. Um so restricted is like if you're gonna get handguns or things like that, and it's super regimented. Like you have to get um a route mapped out with the RCMP. They'll know like when you're taking it to the shooting range. Um, you have like if you're gonna go to the gas station on your way to the shooting range, that needs to be on your route that is officially submitted with them. So it is like very, very regimented here. It's like log in the flight log. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, and then prohibited is like a step beyond that. I think it's like older models of firearms that, you know, maybe your grandfather had left you as an heirloom or something like that. I'm not 100% sure on that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what my family has. Um, and I think I've told this story on the podcast before, but right when this was becoming like having the licensing was becoming law, um, my dad sent them a picture. This is like early days in Ontario, so he sent them a picture of himself from 1970. He has a full-on mullet um in that initial license. And then we had moved houses and he just put a bunch of our heirloom guns. Moment, many of them didn't work, to be fair. He just put them in the trunk of my car and didn't tell me about it. And I just drove around with these guns for months. I don't even know how long a long time before I had any reason to open my trunk. Um, that was bad. But in America, I don't even know if they would they've been like, okay, cool. Yeah, those are your guns. Back there.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, you didn't get caught. Thank God. That's just where you keep your guns in America. Um, yeah, you know, what you described uh about the licensing process, I think that's like totally reasonable. And uh fun fact, when I was when I was a kid, um around 14 years old, I got my small game hunting license. And I thought that was what you had to do to own a firearm because that's what my parents made me do in order, you know, I had to take the the hunter safety course. Um my family owned a lot of guns. Like my my dad, I feel like he had like a hundred at some point. Um when I was a kid, he had like thirty. Uh and you know, I I I wanted to have my own firearms at the age of fourteen to go hunting with, so I had to have my license per my parents. Um so I just thought everybody had to do that. And it was like a rite of passage, like you have you have to take a safety course, you have to know safety, you have to like know not to point guns at people or keep them loaded in the house. Um, and then when I became an adult and like my friends around me owned guns and they just like had them laying around and they were just like they they just like pointed them everywhere and I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like, didn't you take the hunter safety course? And they're like, no, we didn't we don't hunt.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah. And is the I believe the having in Canada a um like having them locked in a safe is also le like required, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's correct. Um, it doesn't have to necessarily be locked in a safe, but you have to have some sort of locking mechanism. So either in a safe or a trigger lock, um, pretty sure it's recommended, or it's you have to have like the clip or magazine like separate from it, unloaded. Like, yeah, so there's there's definitely protocols that uh need to be in place, not quite like having them lying around the house like dance. Yeah, it's a little different.

SPEAKER_01:

Canada's in the middle, because we learned recently that in the UK you can't even have a machete, and we were like, whoa, this is different. Yeah, a knife longer than three inches. Yeah, something like that. I'm like, what about butcher knives? But uh it reading your inclusion of guns in the book and the way that they're included is clearly in the Canadian context, which I appreciated, uh, but also interesting because I I also really like that there are moments where guns cause problems, not just solve the zombie problem. And that felt very real to me. Um, and made me think about just uh some of the just a one fact that I think is worth reminding folks of versus Canada. So the number one killer of children and teenagers in the United States is guns. Do you know? Do you you don't have to actually know this because I do, but Rebecca, do you happen to know the number one death cause of death for children in Canada?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't.

SPEAKER_01:

It's just accidents. So they actually have to compile um drowning, suffocation, choking, and falls, which are all awful things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Accidents happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. But some accidents happen because you've left your loaded weapon underneath your bed and somebody finds out about it. Uh so there's some wisdom I just want to throw out there as a fellow Canadian uh that we can maybe learn from. But I also felt a little bit like, you know, in the very beginning of your book, you you explained that there are extra letters in your book. What's it like writing writing a book as a Canadian, knowing that that's gonna like throw people off to see a you in the word color?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that much until I saw somebody posting on threads about it that they had done a little blurb in their front matter of their book about the Canadian spelling. And I thought, you know, I that's a good idea. I should do that too, because um apparently people can report you on Amazon if you have typos. And I was like, I don't want to get reported for having Canadian spelling. So I put this blurb in the beginning of my book about yeah, the extra U's and L's and stuff. And I I think I said in it, I'm weird, we're weird, carry on or something like that. But then I recently today, recently today, today I read that uh, and I haven't fact-checked this, so just take it with a grain of salt, but I read that the states dropped those letters um because every letter in newsprint cost money. Yeah. So they dropped the U's and they dropped the L's. So it's it's actually not us that's weird. It's you guys that are savvy.

SPEAKER_01:

So or really like money focused. I don't know. I love my U. It took me a long time to drop it. Um, but it was funny because when I was preparing for this interview with you, I found myself just like intuitively bringing the U's back and the L's. Speaking my language, yeah. It's like I was like, oh, it's a Canadian, so nice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of funny how like language changed because people who owned newspapers were greedy.

SPEAKER_01:

They were cheap, you know. They want to spend a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't have that problem in Canada. They were like, we pay extra for those letters because it's right.

SPEAKER_01:

One of my favorite facts to tell Americans is that everybody else says Z. We're the only Z location. So you yeah, I'm I I know you need to fact check this, we can fact check it, but I I it feels right. And that's how you should know something is true. Don't Google it, just let it convey. Affirm your own bias, which is what I'm doing right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Love it. Word of mouth, that's how things get should be.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's get into your creative process a little bit. Um, you have shared some very hilarious reels, um, which by the way, your humor really shines through in the book too. It's made me laugh quite a few times. Uh, but I my favorite reel that I ever saw from you is explaining what it takes to write with a toddler in the house. Could you give us a sense of your logistics of how you make that happen?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's uh it's a little chaotic. Um, it's definitely changed from the way it used to be. So, like before toddler, I would be waking up at like 4 a.m. before work to get my writing in. And that was my like my sacred time that was just for me. But now it's totally on his time. Um, I write during nap time. So um you probably you saw the post where I'm working in a playpen. I have my desk. I'm currently sitting at my desk inside a playpen because at one point he's like, I hate this thing. I don't want to use it anymore. So I decided, okay, that's mine. And I put my desk in the playpen so he can't grab my stapler or the cords or anything like that. And now this is my my office. But it's actually mainly for clerical um tasks and you know, meetings and stuff like that, um, because most of my writing is when I'm nap trapped with him. So I'm literally like on the bed on my phone, like just cuddled up next to him. So yeah, just know that depths of undead is completely being written on an iPhone and in the dark room next to my dog and my baby.

SPEAKER_01:

Your thumb writing? Pardon me? Your thumb typing?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, it's it's a little slow going.

SPEAKER_01:

With all those extra letters?

SPEAKER_02:

All those extra letters.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you should just get rid of them for economy.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Although, trust me, as somebody who had to force myself to do that because I was working for Americans, it's very hard to like untrain your fingers.

SPEAKER_02:

I can imagine, yeah. Yeah, but uh, it's is making content that gets really chaotic if I try to do it when my toddler's up. Um, if I'm filming, like that's probably the reel you're referring to, where he's like grabbing the light and like, ooh, a microphone, oh, DD, DD. And it's I usually film when my husband is home from work and can play with him and distract him. But the times that I do try to create content when it's the the two of us plus dog, it gets pretty hectic.

SPEAKER_01:

I really love that the play pen is now your well, I guess it's clerical work, so it's not so much of a play pen for you. It's a clerical pen.

SPEAKER_02:

It's fun clerical work. Like it's it's all the like side quests that come with um being a self-published author. Yeah, that's a white a lot. What's your favorite author side quest you've had to go on? I mean, hiring artists for character art is art is a lot of fun. So yeah, making the mood boards and doing my like terrible chicken scratch outline of what I want. That's been fun. Um, choosing a font was kind of fun, but also very frustrating. I never thought I would spend 12 hours of my life choosing a font for a book, but I did. So is it the interior font or the exterior, like the title? Interior. The exterior was um from my the cover artist. Yeah, the interior Georgia 12 point, I think it was. Uh yeah. I did so many samples and sent them to my beta team and read about a lot to do with fonts.

SPEAKER_01:

Give us a font fact. I'm here for it. I'm ready. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Give us a font fact. Oh. Um, I can't think of the words right now. How dare you. I'm sorry. Brains. So some fonts have the little like extra emphasis, like the H has a little hook on the end and on the bottom and stuff. And some don't. I can't remember the two types of fonts that those are right now. But yeah, apparently, like one is used mostly for fiction and the other is for non-fiction. Serifs. Serifs. There we go. Yeah. So sans serif is typically like not having that serif, that extra eloquence, um, is typically for nonfiction, whereas a serif font is typically for fiction.

SPEAKER_01:

So you're telling me is that a font name actually means something. It actually means without the serif, which is because sans is um French, right? Been a while.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I think it means without.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I just thought people made up random names.

SPEAKER_00:

Do I so do I need to pick fancy font? I've I've not I have not thought about this at all. You should just go with what Rebecca did after 12 hours of research. Georgia, Georgia. Georgia 12. There you go. Um also here, you know, also another relatable thing. You've been working on this book for like 10 years. Um, why as if I don't know uh about my own struggles, what uh what makes what makes it take so long? Like what was this the struggle?

SPEAKER_02:

I think um a lot of that was because I had not fully committed to the story partially. Um so I would write it on again, off again. Like I'd work on it for like three months and then shelf it for nine months. And um, you know, I had the the move from Tofino to um the mainland here, and that was very disruptive to my life. Um I also had a bit of alcoholism going on, which is not a part of my life anymore. But uh yeah, so there was different chapters of my life where I was working on it or where I wasn't. I also had a lot of um false starts. So, like I said, you know, Anna started out in Topino. I had one point where Anna was, you know, working in a diner and like kind of like a retro uniform and um just a lot of like different like experimentations with it. And finally, when I moved back here, um I fully like committed to this project and started working on it like most mornings of uh the week, work week, anyways. And yeah, so now that I, you know, I know what where I want this story to go, um, minus whether Anna's gonna live or die. Um now I'm hoping to have book two finished by next summer is my goal. It's a pretty ambitious goal for a thumb typer, but uh I'll try to get there. And then um, yeah, I I really just I want to see this series as a whole. I'm 35 right now. I want to see this series as a whole, you know, by the time I'm 40 is kind of my goal. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um yeah, the the false starts I find really interesting because I'm I'm in a world of false starts. I feel like I've finally gotten to that point. How do you know when you've gotten to a point where you're not false starting anymore?

SPEAKER_02:

Good question. Um I think when you're able to like continue to progress without having this like looming feeling that something about it isn't quite right. I mean, you can progress and then change things after. Like in the second book, I you know, I drafted or I outlined the beginning, I outlined the end, and now I'm writing through it. And as I'm discovering things, I'm realizing, okay, I have to go back and change this character from being like a victim to a bit like of a stronger person. Like there's little nuances like that that I do have to change throughout. But I think if you aren't wanting to change like major, major plot points, then you've you're on the right track.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I think that's good advice. I'm I'm working on it. I also want to say I like really love and appreciate your honesty about the process, the time it took, the the human aspects of it. Like you're not a machine out there, um, just typing away constantly. You're literally thumb typing book two. Because there's I know that I feel as as a reader, I feel pressure to like read so much, and I frankly can't because I'm just not a fast reader, and there's other things in my life I need to be doing. And I think that I it it seems to me like there might be pressure to just like produce all of the time as a writer, too. And so stories like yours are really important because what you've created is an exceptional book. I love it. I'm really excited um for book two. And I don't think this would be the book you would have written 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02:

No, it would have been vastly different. And yeah, you have to, you know, go through certain chapters in your life and through growth to uh, you know, realize where you want projects to go or that you want to see them through.

SPEAKER_01:

Um tell us a little bit about book two. And also if you could answer for me, uh, did Dan dream that you mentioned writing a novella about one of the characters cat, or is that actually a thing?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh that is actually a thing. So book two, uh, it's gonna have four primary points of view. That'll be Anna and Paul, and then two new characters, Adrian and Priya. Adrian is a saturation diver, and Priya is um, she has a medical background. I haven't fully decided her job title yet, but she's getting into um, you know, what the she's getting into some biological stuff. And Adrian, he's gonna be trying to do some recovery. So it's all intertwined about what the cause was, if there's a cure. Um and the story got a bit too big in in uh book one with so many points of view to continue to loop all of those points of view into this book. So unfortunately, for fans of Skylar and Kat, we won't be seeing them in book two, but I'm gonna have two side novellas for each of them. So kind of like a 2B, 2C situation. And then they may or may not be looped into book three if they survive.

SPEAKER_01:

I love the universe that you're creating. That is awesome. I also know I also love that you don't know if they're gonna survive. We all get to be surprised. Yeah, one of them I know, one of them I haven't decided. I just wonder if I will love or hate Kat by the end of that novella, but I guess I'll find out.

SPEAKER_02:

She's an interesting character. She has a lot of depth to her and uh a lot of mood swings.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good description. But also, never mind. Spoiler. Where can people find you, Rebecca? And where can they find your book?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so uh they can find my book at on my website, rcuthbertsonrights.com, as well as on Amazon. And this year I'm hoping to launch an audiobook version as well on all of those platforms. Uh, I'm on most major ebook platforms, and as far as socials go, I can be found uh primarily on Instagram. I'm also on threads and Facebook, but I'm rcuthbertson.rights.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you want to follow Rebecca because again, the reels, just for the reels.

SPEAKER_00:

Do it for the reels. Do it for the reels, get the book. All links, they'll be down there in the description. So you can just click on them. Yeah. You don't have to remember. You just click. That's what that's the world we live in now. Don't commit anything to memory.

SPEAKER_01:

Especially not your loved ones' phone numbers. You'll never need that. Um thank you so much for coming on the Joe Rogan podcast. Coming on the Joe Podcast. The Joe Rogan podcast. Yes. Keep it in. Thank you so much for coming on the Joe Rogan podcast, Rebecca. We absolutely had a great time with you. And thanks everybody for joining Zombie Book Club. You can subscribe by hitting subscribe. Yeah, you can subscribe. That's not what I was gonna say. You can support us by leaving a rating or review. You can send us a voicemail up to three minutes at 614-699-30006. Um, or you can come find us also on Instagram at Zombie Book Club Podcast. And as those of you who are now in the know, we have a Patreon also links in the description with a bonus episode about Queens of the Dead out right now. Uh, but my biggest call to action today is if you have not read Waves of Undead yet, go pick it up. It is an excellent read. In fact, uh you should probably read it while you're on the beach, or if you're like me in hating winter, this will be a lovely alternative where there's a tsunami and zombies.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, go out and lay in the snow. Pretend you're on the beach.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks so much, Rebecca. We appreciate you. Thanks for having me. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00:

Bye.

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Dan

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Leah

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