Zombie Book Club

Talking about Eugene (From TWD) with Jack Callaghan | Zombie Book Club Ep 128

• Zombie Book Club • Season 3 • Episode 128

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We join special guest Jack Callaghan for a deep dive into the unlikely heroics of Eugene from The Walking Dead and the eerie rural mystery of his upcoming novel Wyrd Water. After a quick chat about Jack’s creative pivot from the stalled Zombie Nerd series to this 1979‑set folk‑horror tale, the conversation turns to Eugene’s evolution; from a self‑proclaimed “coward with a mullet” to the logistical mastermind who saves Alexandria with sabotaged ammunition.

Together they explore why brains beats brawn in apocalyptic storytelling, how flawed characters can anchor thriving communities, and what makes Wyrd Water so mysterious.



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SPEAKER_07:

I feel like I need a bean joke in this entry intro.

SPEAKER_04:

No, don't worry, there's bean jokes. I've got them.

SPEAKER_00:

Perfect. Okay. How have you been?

SPEAKER_01:

The only book club where the book is a neurodivergent coward with a mullet. I'm Dan, and when I'm not growing a mullet, I'm writing a book about the zombie apocalypse, and I will tell you more, but I'm having an exceptionally uncreative day today.

SPEAKER_07:

And I'm Leah, and I feel required to say right off the top that the neurodivergent coward with a mullet is not our guest Jack Callahan that we're talking about. It is Eugene from The Walking Dead. No mullet here. Yeah, Jack actually has very nice hair. I won't describe it to you because his identity is top secret, but it's quite lovely. Jack is, as many of you know, one of our zombie besties back on the show with us. He's a fan favorite from the last two Zombie Wien game shows, and is, of course, always also known amongst our community for his kick-ass novel, Zombie Nerd and the Half-Turn Heroing. But today we are here to talk about the neurodivergent coward with a mullet, Eugene, who is Jack's favorite character on The Walking Dead, and get a sneak peek into his upcoming book, Weird Water. Welcome to the show, Jack. Glad to have you back.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you. I'm really, really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_07:

It is always a pleasure. I feel very privileged. We get to see Jack's full face, just so everybody knows.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, now the the word is out that we have the top secret access. From the underground bunker. Yeah, yeah. Which is a security.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you get to see the face and the hair. As you said, the hair is getting very long at the moment, but uh well.

SPEAKER_07:

It's beautiful. Dan's hair, he's growing his out. And I was actually saying today that because he's just growing the top out, it's the opposite of a mullet. Yeah. I have a reverse mullet. And I think it's time for him to I feel like you should take inspo from Jack.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, just grow all of it. Yeah. I I think I think I have like a family trait that makes the hair on the side of my head grow more or at least grow out more. Um, my grandfather was uh a person that like went bald at like 17, and so were my uncles. And that was the only place that they grew hair was on the sides of their heads. So it's kind of like a trauma response that I keep the hair on the sides of my head really short and the top long because I'm like, look at look at what I'm able to do. Yeah, Jack's just mocking you over here with his glorious thick hair.

SPEAKER_04:

Mine is un both undercut and straightened as well. So, you know, it did uh uh nobody else can see it, but uh from what you're seeing, it's not natural. This uh I do have to get the old heating pongs out to do this.

SPEAKER_07:

You have to maintain the illusion, Jack. It's you have curly hair like me.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, mine though if if I just let mine do what it wants, it has a big uh a big kink at the bottom. Oh. And um sorry. I actually when I when I first started growing it out and it and it got to sort of like to my shoulders and then started doing that sort of kinky thing to it. Um I wasn't really that happy. Yeah, well no, I wasn't that happy with it, but then I ended up watching a a video of the band Genesis from maybe I think it was like 1974, and a very young Peter Gabriel, um, his hair sort of did the same thing that mine did as well. So I was thinking if Peter Gabriel can pull it off, then I can as well. But but no, I I I do straighten it as well.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, it's working for you. I love it. Oh, a blue tie, too. I'm just getting a little bit more of the outfit here. And a blue tie. Wow, you dressed up for us. I'm in a hoodie. I did. I did. Thank you. Well, we always dress up for you guys. Oh, we don't, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Um We're not even wearing clothes.

SPEAKER_01:

That's not true. Don't listen to this man. That's why my camera's off.

SPEAKER_07:

We have two rapid fire questions for you, Jack. They're not the typical ones because you've already been through the initiation. Uh, a couple episodes ago, we talked about what people's role would be in the zombie apocalypse, and we'd love to hear from you. What role would you play in the zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, um, I looked at the the the chart that you sent me of those uh of the various roles, and um I don't think that I'd want to be any of them. Of course you wouldn't. I'm not I'm not the biggest fan of categorization, the you know, the Myers-Briggs stuff and the Kinsey scale, it's all rubbish. Uh I don't see why people are so willing to objectively quantify themselves these days. You know, everyone needs to have an acronym and a flag and a and a specific word which tells them what they are. But um, I suppose if I had to choose You do it, yeah, it'd be a combination between a guide and a weaver. Uh I am essentially a softcore sociopath, uh, which which shares a lot of common elements with those roles. So I mean, you know, I may as well put them together. Uh if I can't guide and weave, then I'll manipulate and deceive. They're technically the same thing.

SPEAKER_01:

The dark side of that. Like, you know, we think we think about those roles in only good ways, but there's not like a flip side to those things.

SPEAKER_07:

Absolutely. And I actually just took a course in these roles. You'll be relieved to hear, Jack, that it's not about it you just picking one as if it's you. It's more about like in the context, in the environment you're in, which one makes sense for you in the moment. Does that make you hate it less?

SPEAKER_04:

No, it does make me hate it less. Let's not forget, let's not forget you're talking to a man who literally wears a mask.

SPEAKER_07:

It's true. Well, my next rapid fire question, um, I'm really hoping for something special here. You mentioned when we were planning for this episode that you had a temptation to discuss post-humanism. Dan and I don't know what this is. So could you please explain to us and the the audience, as if we are toddlers in a toddler voice, what is post-humanism? The toddler voice is very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't really want to talk about post-humanism, and I'm certainly not doing a toddler voice. Let's just say uh post-humanism is something which I foolishly mentioned in our messages before this episode, and I really wish that happened. It it was something which I became very interested in while I was at university to the point that I chose to write my dissertation thesis on it, and it melt it melted my brain so badly that it prevented me from reading the works of one of my favorite authors for the better better part of a decade. Um Posthumanism concerns the social, philosophical, and ethical conundrums behind humanities relationships with technology. Next question, please. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I have a very important follow-up to this question.

SPEAKER_07:

Uh a toddler wouldn't understand that answer, but you already said you weren't going to do that for us. So I respect your boundary, Jack. Um, follow-up to that question.

SPEAKER_01:

Is there a ghost at the top of your stairs?

SPEAKER_04:

You've seen the picture, have you? Uh no, uh no, there is not. There's so far, there's not been a ghost at the top of my stairs. I'm very worried that there's going to be. That has nothing to do with posthumanism.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it does. My understanding of post-humanism is that there might be a ghost at the top of your stairs.

SPEAKER_07:

There also could be aliens hiding in the bushes.

SPEAKER_04:

In the bushes as well. No, uh that that's completely unrelated, but no, I don't like looking at the top of those stairs because I'm worried that there's going to be a ghost up there.

SPEAKER_07:

Do you mind sharing the backstory for those of our listeners who are like, what the heck is going on? Why are we talking about aliens in the bushes and ghosts on the top of the stairs, Jack?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, no, what when what when I come in into my house, the building that my house is into, is is in, um, I have to walk by a big set of stairs. And at the top of them, there's a window, so there's just a little bit of light coming in. So when I walk by it, I always think that I'm going to look up and see a ghost there. So what I've started doing is as I go to my to my front door, I look down and and and just walk back, walk by it as quick as I can. You know, look at it. I don't want to look up. Yeah, I don't want to look up there and see a ghost. But then it it makes me worry, like, um if I looked up and saw a ghost, then that would be one thing. But maybe if I'm just going by and just walking, every time that I walk by and don't look up, maybe the ghost is already up there.

SPEAKER_06:

So maybe I should look.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so I don't know. And the thing with the with the aliens was um uh when I used to live back at home with my mother, um instead of going upstairs to wake her to go and use the bathroom, I used to go into the garden and do and do a wee in the back garden. But then I saw a really uh a really scary photo that had like an alien hand poking from around around a tree. And so when I was out there like doing a wee, I'd look at the trees in our garden. There were a lot of trees, there was four of them, and I'd sort of be stood there weing and think like there could be an alien behind what wanted to hurry up, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up, and I'd do that thing, you know, when you push your diaphragm really hard and you you have to wee harder than you want to. Like, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on, let's go back inside. And I'm nearly 40. I turn 38 in two weeks, and I am terrified of seeing ghosts, and I'm terrified of seeing aliens hiding behind trees while I'm trying to wee.

SPEAKER_07:

Jack, I have a I have a clarifying question. How old were you when you were living with your mom? I d I I lived with my mother twice.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh once until I was obviously well while I was a child. I went I went away to university when I was in my early 20s. I came back when I was about 26, and that was when I started skip being scared about alien. I was 26.

SPEAKER_01:

I was thinking to myself, this is the post post-humanism.

SPEAKER_04:

After your brain had melted from well, after my brain, yeah, maybe the brain melting had something to do with it, but I was like, I don't want to go upstairs and like wait, you know, wake my mum up by going to the toilet, so I'll go downstairs and pee in the back garden. But now I don't want to pee in the back garden because there might be aliens in there. I was absolutely stuck.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, you just hold it till morning because there's no aliens outside when it's light out. And of course, everybody knows that ghosts um aren't around in the daytime.

SPEAKER_07:

I was gonna say, you could just put a night light up there and then you wouldn't have to know the ghosts aren't gonna hang out where it's bright.

SPEAKER_04:

We all know. I didn't think about that at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Good hindsight, Leah.

SPEAKER_07:

So it's been a while since we've seen you. I guess a couple months now since we recorded Zombie Wien 2025, and you were so close, like razor hair, edge, from getting the Zombesties Choice Award, just so you know, Jack. Uh Lori Calcatera won that. Sylvester Barzi is our reigning Zombie Wien king. How does it feel? How have you been since you lost your chance at a Bean Crown?

SPEAKER_04:

I have been annoyed. I still think that those games were rigged both times. I was sat there thinking, like, I I uh I understand that my improv skills are woefully bad, but why do I keep getting pitted against people whose improv skills seem to be amazingly good? Yeah, I've never been I've never been good at thinking on the spot. I'm a planner, I'm a uh I mean, text messages that I send to my family, they go through three drafts before I send them. But but uh but still, but still, even even though I lost both of them, I am the bean king, if only in my own mind, the Baron of Beans, the Lord of Legumes, the Prince of Pulses. Um these these are titles which cannot be usurped from me because I can't imagine that anyone would want them.

SPEAKER_07:

I might compete because I also love beans. And and the Prince of Pulses is pretty great.

SPEAKER_04:

But no, no, no, I had a lot, I had a lot of fun on those shows. Taking part was more fun than winning.

SPEAKER_01:

Um it's very um magnanimous of you. When when we're just talking numbers, like if it weren't for the daily double, I I think you actually earned more points than everyone probably combined. Most people just got their points from taking them from you. Ask Ollie, Dan. Beans. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04:

Ask Ollie, he'll back you up. Ollie says that I that I was cheated. He said it both times.

SPEAKER_01:

Ollie is nothing if not reliable. It's true. You can always trust Ollie at their word. Yeah. I think you would have had a better chance if you didn't give up at the very end. That really threw a wrench in it. I would really like to see you receive your bean crown. Um, and I think it could happen one day. I I think that you don't give yourself enough credit. Your your your improv it's different. It's different from standard improv. It's like a different kind of improv, where it's less like I it's less like uh slapsticky and more like um you're you're you're letting your personality out, and that personality is the thing that meshes with the moment so well. Soft core sociopath. Yeah, that's that's the one.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but is is that is that your way of saying that I'm I'm terrible?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I'm saying next time don't give up at the end.

SPEAKER_07:

It's true. It is a pattern because the first zombie wane that you participated in, you also gave up at the end, Jack.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm too I'm I get beaten too easily. That's my own problem.

SPEAKER_07:

I feel like this is a terrible segue to ask you about what happened with zombie nerd and the halfway harrowing. Half not halfway harrowing harrowing. Halfway out.

SPEAKER_04:

You don't even know the title of it.

SPEAKER_07:

No, I have a legitimate disability called dysnomia. Look it up. Verbs, not verbs. I even got it wrong. It's nouns, not verbs. Yeah, Leah also can't be in class. The zombie nerd and the half-term harrowing. What happened with that? We love this book.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, I am no longer contractually obligated to not say bad things about that publishing company. Uh, but I'm still not going to.

SPEAKER_07:

Damn it.

SPEAKER_04:

That's probably for the best.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Let's just say that it it didn't work out. It's a shame because um I worked really hard on those books. Um, if I put together everything that I've written, it's getting close to half a million words, and only the first fifth of that ever saw, you know, the light of day. Uh I'm trying not to be overly disheartened by the whole ordeal. You know, I learned a lot, uh, I made a lot of connections, of you, you know, your good selves included. Um the response that I got from the first book was overwhelmingly positive. Uh not one person who read it said that they didn't like it. Um at the end of the day, it was a big sort of confidence thing, if anything. Uh I suffer from a lingering fear that I'm actually rubbish but just don't know it. So so to have such a a positive response to something that I've written really gave me a big boost to continue, even even though it was only a you know a small part of my journey.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's an important thing for people to hear too, because uh you know, what you're feeling is is not uncommon, especially among writers. Like I feel like every writer I've ever talked to with a a very slim amount of people that aren't like this, uh have those moments where they're like, everything that I'm doing is awful and I need to give up. Yeah, it it does.

SPEAKER_04:

It's um I I I've never been a big understander of people who say that they suffer from um or what's it called? Um imposter syndrome? Yeah, imposter syndrome. Um I don't suffer from imposter syndrome um because uh uh this is the only thing that I know how to do. It's uh I only feel like an imposter when I try to do everything else, you know. Um so uh w when I think about my my writing and the stuff that I that I want to give across to people when they when they enjoy it, I see that as a really really like I say, a really big confidence booster. And I don't worry about um what people think about me personally. You know, they they could think that I'm a weirdo, and I am a weirdo, but as long as they enjoy what I'm producing, that's all I care about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean we're luckily we're living in an age where being a weirdo isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know. Uh I feel like there was a time when that was the worst thing somebody could call you, but now it's like it's like good. I I enjoy being a weirdo. You're good. You're normal. Yeah, like your freak flag fly, truly.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, who wants who wants to be normal? Who needs normal? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

I mean, that's not where good books come from.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Uh and uh yeah, I loved Zombie Nerd and the Half Term Harrowing, not the halfway harrowing. That's a different book. Um, so I I was also sad when um it's discontinued, but I feel lucky that I got to read it. Uh, and I'm hopeful that one day you'll reconsider about bringing it back out and the other half million words um that I haven't had the chance to read and see because it was really a creative take. And I have some questions about a few of those characters. Maybe you can just tell me now then, since or you could just you know slide the manuscript my way. I don't know. I'd love to see it.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe maybe I will. Um the second, the third, and the fourth books are written. Wow. Um, so m mm you know, maybe, maybe I'll send them to you. But but that's also how things end up on file sharing sites, and I don't like the idea of that.

SPEAKER_06:

That's true.

SPEAKER_04:

And I no, I'm no, I I do trust you though, Leah. So maybe maybe I'll send you the the the manuscript for the second book just to see what you think.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah, I would never share it, but it is also true that it's Google and like Yeah do we trust Google?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't trust Google. There's there's actually there's something that um I just learned today uh from our good friend Alice B. Sullivan is that um if you publish your book on Amazon, there's now a new policy and you have to uncheck it if you don't want this to happen. But if you um have an ebook version, they are like automatically opting people in to allow PDF downloads. Yeah, I've heard about that. Yeah. So it's just it's basically just Amazon's just like, hey, do you want to pirate this book? We're gonna make it easier. Only one person has to buy it.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, let's talk about your new book that's coming up, Weird Water. Uh, how long have you been working on it and when can we expect it to come out?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, well um I've I've been working on it for a long time. Uh well, well, not that long, actually. That's not true. Um when I was both to Accept that the zombie nerd stuff wasn't going to continue, I had to confront the question of what now. And uh one idea that I'd had rattling around in the back of my mind sort of resurfaced. It was something that I'd actually considered stopping work on the second zombie nerd book in order to pursue, but my my erstwhile editor told me that this would be a bad idea, so I didn't do it. However, uh once I was without any skin in the game anymore, I had the opportunity to focus on it. It uh it took me around six months to complete. Uh, I shopped it around to some of the larger agencies and publishers to begin with. I came close a couple of times, but not close enough. Uh still um I eventually found a place who were impressed by it and were willing to you know help me get it out. But uh we're gonna talk about that later, aren't we? So I don't want to give too much away.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm looking at the spelling of Weird Water, W-Y-R-D. W-Y-R-D. And I know that um in Zombie Nerd, you had a lot of references to old um Celtic uh uh words and um and names of things, and I and I know that that's kind of like the um ancient Nordic spelling for word. Well, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_04:

Um sorry, Dan.

SPEAKER_07:

I know I love the fact the light real-time fact-checking. It's great.

SPEAKER_04:

Um when when we talk about the term weird, um, especially when when we spell it in the way that I am, W-Y-R-D, uh, the weird means the unknown. It means something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So like there's a there's a rune called the word rune, which is spelled. No, the weird yeah, the weird rune. The weird rune.

SPEAKER_04:

And that yeah, and that that's well, there that's the thing. There is no hand of fate. There is no weird rune. That's also true. There are lots of there are lots of runes, and runes do make a big, you know, a big part of the book, but um the weird rune is the blank rune. Yeah. It's the one that you pull out that has nothing on it, and that's what I'm trying to sort of give with the book. It's the it's the weird book, it's the weird water, it's the unknown.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Perfect.

SPEAKER_07:

I love that. And when is it coming out?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh I don't know. Um it uh when does this episode drop? It'll probably be the on the solstice, you say. So 21st?

SPEAKER_07:

Yep.

SPEAKER_04:

It may it may already be out by the time this by the time this episode is released.

SPEAKER_07:

All right, we'll make sure that the links are in the show notes for everybody to check it out. So before we get into Eugene, I really want to hear more about this book because shocker and possible spoiler alert for our listeners, it does not include zombies. So who is your most interesting character that we have to look forward to?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh I'd of course have to choose the main character. Um, her name is Andromeda Watts, uh, though she goes by the name Andrew for most of the book. Um, she's a character who I I didn't really know that much about when I first started writing her. It was uh I actually I was a bit worried. I was thinking, like, oh man, if I if I can't get my head around my main character, this story doesn't stand a chance. But um, she opened up as I went along and I got to know her better and I developed her personality. Um, writing a female lead was tough to begin with. I mean, I've never been a 15-year-old girl, nor have I had much interaction with them since leaving school, and I I didn't really have much interaction with them then, even when I was there. But um her sex became more of a non-issue as things progressed. Um, she she she's not a female character, she's a character who just happens to be female, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Um, and I really think that the the readers will like her. There's uh there's layers to her personality which get hinted at as things go along, but uh never really like fully revealed, if you know what I mean. It's it's rather than it being a case of here she is, here's everything about her now story. Yeah. Yeah, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it does, because uh, I mean, I've I've read I've read plenty of books where it's like this person is five foot five, they have blonde hair. And then and then it's like, now that you know all that, the story begins. And like I'd much rather learn the details of a character just by watching the story play out and then being like, oh, that's what kind of a person you are.

SPEAKER_07:

What is the core of this book about?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, the core. Um it's it's it's mainly it it's not a book, it it doesn't have a very strict kind of theme, the same way that the the the the zombie nerd things did. Um it's just a good story, if anything. It does have its you know, its ideas behind it, but when it comes to to just reading something, it it's it's it's just a a mystery, if anything. Good mystery. It has a lot of spooky parts in it, has a lot of weird magical parts in it. And I just hope that it's a a good story that that people will enjoy reading. It's um unlike unlike Zombie Nerd, I'm not trying to push anything. I just really hope that people enjoy reading the story and you know getting something out of it.

SPEAKER_07:

What's the you know, we talked to a lot of authors about genres and sometimes genres being limiting, but I'm curious when this goes onto a bookshelf somewhere, where where are we gonna find it?

SPEAKER_04:

I'm not entirely sure. Um horror. It could be mystery, it could be horror. Um I I've I've described it as folk horror, which is something that I really I really like. Um but uh yeah, you you know, you know what I what I'm like. I don't I don't write something that that can be easily categorized. But even so.

SPEAKER_01:

You did start by saying that you don't like labeling things. Yeah, I don't I don't like labeling things. Um so maybe this is just a story that doesn't fit inside the box, and that's why people should Because it's weird. It's the blank room.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah, yeah, it's weird. It's W-Y-R-D weird. Yeah. Was there a moment that sparked the story for you?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh the basic idea uh came to me as the best of them do, uh, pretty much out of nowhere. But um, I started reading a lot of stuff by other writers who've done similar things. Um, Algernon Blackwood, uh David Alman was a big influence. There's a hefty chunk of Stephen King in there, as we've as we've talked about before. Um what I decided was that I wanted to do something like that, but I didn't want it to be the same as that. Um I I I I I want I I didn't want it to be Jack Callahan writes a folk horror story. I wanted it to be a folk horror story by Jack Callahan, if that makes any sense. Um, it retains my style because my style is the only thing that I can do. Um I and I'm I'm someone who spent periods of my life living in both a countryside and a city setting, and I was raised around horses and everything that comes with them. So I've met my fair share of countryside types, and I always felt that there's a certain otherworldly aspect to them. The countryside can seem almost forbidden to the uninitiated. There are things which outsiders don't understand, there are things which they aren't in on, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that's how I feel about cities, to be honest.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, or vice versa, but that feels really resonant as a horse person.

SPEAKER_04:

There's a giant horse arena that's around the corner from us, and even other people that live here didn't know that it was a horse arena, and I didn't know that they didn't know Jack and so So what I what I wanted to do with Weirdwater was to simply take that to its ultimate conclusion.

SPEAKER_07:

The mystery of the farm. Yeah, I think about all the times that I've brought when I was younger, I would bring, especially in university days, I would bring people who I had befriended in university who were city folks, and they would come to the farm. And it really was an experience where it felt like they were moving into a different world they didn't know how to function in. So I love the idea of being otherworldly and a little bit haunted. And I'm also a big fan of hope folk horror.

SPEAKER_01:

So um I I have some I have some stories. I won't share these stories now because they're too long, but I have some stories about like my childhood home was a was a cabin that we built by hand, literally like three miles in the woods with like a a hand pump well. Um that we when we moved out became a hunting camp and we would take people hunting and they were not ready for that experience. And I'm like, I lived here.

SPEAKER_07:

Um who do you think is gonna love this story?

SPEAKER_04:

Anyone with a wallet. No, no, I'm joking. No, imagine if I was like that. Um if you like a good mystery, I've got you covered. Um, if you like something spooky, I've got you covered. If you like, like we say, folky stuff, I've got you covered. Uh, that's actually a really big element. Um, also, um, it's set in 1979.

SPEAKER_07:

Nice.

SPEAKER_04:

So if you if you like if you like silly pop culture references, you bet your ass I've got you covered.

SPEAKER_07:

Oh, interesting. Did you just play uh 1979 by Smashing Pumpkins the whole time while you were writing it?

SPEAKER_04:

No, I didn't. I hate the smashing pumpkins.

SPEAKER_07:

Jack, this interview's over.

SPEAKER_04:

The reason that I that I decided to base it in in the past is because I absolutely detest the intrusion of the modern world into my life, and I therefore detest it into the into the intrusion into my my writing. Um I wanted to write something where uh nobody could say, uh, how are we going to find this out? And then they could Google it. I didn't I didn't I didn't want there to be a point where somebody could say, oh dear, there's no bone signal here, what are we gonna do? I just re I removed all of those things completely and it made it a much easier novel to write. Because um when you're writing a novel that has the if you're doing it in the like um if you're writing it now, then all of those things exist. Whereas if you're writing it in the past, none of those things exist. So nobody can call somebody up, nobody can Google anything, and it makes it much more interesting.

SPEAKER_07:

It also makes it much more real because I have watched my fair share of shows. I haven't seen as much in books, but there's nothing that annoys me and takes me out of the moment more than when like a character shows up at another character's house to see if they're home in 2023 or whatever you know year it's filmed. Like, who does that? No one does that anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

I've arrived at your front door. Are you home?

SPEAKER_04:

It's just absolutely not real. Um have you have you seen the have you seen the film Midsummer?

SPEAKER_07:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Love it. Have you seen yeah, have you noticed how there is that scene where the guy goes, There's no phone signal here?

SPEAKER_07:

Yes. They have to they have to establish that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. But no, screw that. Like um, I I've just completely removed it by basing it in the past.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think that's the thing that I love most about the the zombie apocalypse as a genre is typically um it's taking place in a post-society world. Um and that technology, it's it's around, but it doesn't work. So he kind of abandoned it. And I I think that there's something about specifically our our generation where we we started life in an analog world, and then we learned technology and all of life changed that's kind of overwhelming, even though it is a part of our lives and we're fluent in that language of like let's just Google it. Um, but we're we also remember a time where we were like, I wonder if my friend is home. I better jump on my BMX bike and go find out.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07:

Was there anything from the era of like 1979 that you did research on that like surprised you or finds its way into the book that you think is unique for folks to remember about that time?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh mostly music stuff. Um, because because you know, I you know uh how much I love music. Um, there's a lot of references to music in there, there's a lot of references to the sex pistols, there's a lot of references to Susie and the band. She is one of my favorite bands. And um writing a book in this era sort of gave me the opportunity to talk about those bands, even to even just a little bit. Um, it was really fun.

SPEAKER_07:

I have to be honest with you, Jack. I'm not sure that you really love music if you don't love Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, but I guess we're gonna have to uh agree to disagree on this fundamental. I can forgive it, Leah cannot. Um, I've been listening to Melancholy and the infinite sadness on basically repeat because it's the 40th anniversary? The 30th? Anyways, it's been around for a long time now. Yeah. Um is there a moment in your book where brains matter more than bravery, sort of like Eugene from The Walking Dead?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh, not really. Um, certainly not in the same way as with Eugene. Uh the characters do have to think and plan and uh like figure things out, but there isn't really any sort of eureka moment. Um I wanted it to be a story where the settings and situations act upon the characters instead of the other way around. They they they obviously have to react to them, but there's not some kind of master plan or perfect solution which solves everything and they all live happily ever after. Actually, in fact, quite the opposite.

SPEAKER_07:

Oh. Spoiler alert, everybody. You are not gonna be spoiler alert. Your heart may not feel warm at the end of this book, is what I'm hearing. How do you hope people will feel when they finish your book? Um I don't I don't really know. Um like, do you want to drink the tears of your readers like Lori? Oh no, no, no, absolutely not. Then you are not a softcore sociopath.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. No, um I'd I I'd like to think that somebody would read this book and then get to the end of it and think like um, oh, that's really interesting. What happens next?

SPEAKER_07:

Is it a series? Are you planning for more than one? Well, well, well, well, we'll we'll get to that later, won't we? When are we gonna get to it?

SPEAKER_01:

After you read the book, Leah. After you pay for it, you read with your money from your wallet.

SPEAKER_07:

I said that anyone with a wallet. I know that I'm gonna have to act on it fast and get a physical copy because I only have a Kindle copy of um your zombie book. And so I I have regrets about that fact now. So gotta act fast, gotta get the weird water in our physical hands all the way across the ocean. Okay, so I'll ask this uh last question before we jump into the land of Eugene. Uh, if your book had a movie trailer, is there like an epic moment that would have to be in that movie trailer?

SPEAKER_04:

I think I'm somewhat unusual among writers in that I don't really like the idea of anything I've written becoming a film. Um, especially not Weird Water, as I don't think it would translate to the screen. I I think it's also because I'm too much of a control freak. Um I'd I'd say to the director, look, uh you need to bring me on board as a creative consultant. I think that's true. I want to be involved. Yeah, I want to be involved in the casting and I want to compose the score, and of course, I want to be in it. Oh, who would you play? In fact, why don't you sit over there and I'll direct it as well? Um if it if if if it did need to have a trailer, there's a few images that I think would work. Um in my mind's eye, the majority of the story has a very has very muted colours, lots of greys and dark browns and greens, apart from a few select scenes. I d I uh I don't want to give too much away, but there's one bit where the stuff that's only been hinted at is finally shown or revealed. It's the closest thing I've ever done to a like a jump moment. Not quite a jump scare, but uh a sudden and startling reveal. Uh if anyone you just read the book and you'll know which bit I mean.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, let us know. Okay. That sounds good. If you know the part, let Jack know. Yeah. Let's segue to Eugene.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah. So I want to start by saying that I remember uh messaging you on Instagram about The Walking Dead, and initially you were like, I'm not watching this. I like refuse to watch this show. So could you tell us the history of your relationship with the Walking Dead series and how on earth did we get here to be talking about it with you?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh I first encountered it during my third year of university, so 2012 to 13, I think. And um a friend insisted that I watch the first few episodes with him when he learned that that I hadn't watched any of them at all. And he kept saying, like, you you've got to stick with it, it's it gets better. But I was like, man, uh each episode is an hour, and there's like 10 of them per episode. I haven't got time for this, and I can't imagine that you do either. I I don't know what your exam itinerary is for the end of this year, but mine's got me shaking in my boots.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, you're thinking about post-humanism, that's not an easy topic, Jack.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, yeah. However, um when I started getting more involved with the fandom due to putting out my own zombie-related stuff with um, you know, the zombie nerd stuff, I decided that I should like you know give it another go. And uh my mum has Amazon Prime and she'd seen the whole lot, but she agreed to watch it with me again. Love your mom. And yeah, and I felt I should finally see what all the fuss is about. I do this all the time. I'm always like 10 years behind everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, at least then you've got a lot to catch up on.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So and people always say to me, like, you know, have have how have you not seen this film, or what do you do all day? And I'm like, Well, I've been I've been getting really into these old radio shows from the 1940s.

SPEAKER_01:

They're really cold. That's what it is. You're just catching up on stuff chronologically.

SPEAKER_07:

I've said it before, I will say it again. You and my great uncle Graham, who is sadly no longer with us, possibly haunting you at the top of your stairs, would be besties. It's hilarious how much you remind me of him. Um he's he's also a very smart fellow who. Knows old English. Um, but uh it's interesting to me because when I asked you, you know, like who do you like the most in the Locking Dead series, you said Eugene, who is Dan's also one of his favorite characters, and I hate Eugene, and yet I love both of you. So tell me.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh no, you never told you you told me that Dan likes Eugene, but you never told me that you hate Eugene.

SPEAKER_07:

I find him extremely annoying. You're married to him. You're married to him. But before we I forgot to ask you an important question. How far have you watched the whole series yet? How far are you in?

SPEAKER_04:

No, um, I am, I think I think, as far as I know, I'm a few episodes away from starting the notorious 11 and final season.

SPEAKER_07:

You could probably still just don't do that to yourself. Although Eugene does have an interesting arc in season 11. Kind of. Kind of, yeah. He wears a hat. He does.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's the only good thing I can say about season 11. Eugene wears a hat.

SPEAKER_07:

But I I'm really excited to talk about this with you because like The Walking Dead is so famous and is such a long series. It's like, how do you even bring that up on a show like ours? And I think the best way to do it is to talk about characters or like specific moments in it. And so this is the opportunity you and Dan have to convince me that I should stop hating Eugene. I don't think we're gonna be able to do that. I want to know right now. Are you Team Eugene or are you anti-Eugene? That's what I feel like we need to make a teacher that says Team Eugene.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I think it's hard to sell a character um based on the merits of being an absolute coward only acting out of his own self-interest. And then coming to the rescue only after creating all of the problems.

SPEAKER_07:

Uh is that how you would describe Eugene in a nutshell, Dan?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I love Eugene because he's complex and he represents a part of my brain. Um, but I I like I I don't want him on my team. Unless he's like back at the back at the um the shelter, the the zombie apocalypse shelter, making bullets for me.

SPEAKER_07:

Uh Jack, if you were going to describe Eugene to someone in like one or two sentences, or perhaps like it's Eugene's dating profile, which I know you you abore. Okay, it's Eugene's um like seeking a woman uh uh thing in you know the newspapers they used to have classify it. The singles section. What would what would Eugene say about themselves? Like how would you describe this person?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, um he's not the easiest of people to be buddies with, is he? No. In fact, I imagine if I and if he and I were to meet each other, we'd probably hate each other. Um if I really had to big him up though, I'd say he's definitely someone who's worth having around, even though it comes with added stresses. He um his knowledge and his expertise might seem useless in such settings, but you never know when you might come to rely on it. I mean, he he prevents the Deus Ex Machina having to be pulled out of thin air, which always comes in handy. But I know you've said um talking about a a dating section as well, uh something like uh, you know, uh being being rezoned into Love Town. In fact, that that that entire monologue would cut would would work. Yeah, being rezoned into Love Town.

SPEAKER_07:

I love hearing your American accent, Jack. That's fun. Um one of my first memories, and one of the reasons why I hate Eugene, uh, is early on when he's first introduced. This is Dan, you'll probably know, or you might know Jack. What season is he introduced in?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh season six.

SPEAKER_07:

So we meet Eugene, we meet Rosita, and we meet Abraham, and they're all on a mission to go and he knows the cure, right? But he's got to get somewhere. That's what he's supposedly telling us all. And like that's cool and all, but the scene that stucks out or stucks out, I know English. Uh the scene that sticks out for me is uh Abraham and Rosita getting it on, and Eugene watching creepily in the background. That is he's a creep. Not only is he a coward, but you have to add the word creep to Eugene, at least at the beginning. Um, so what made you want to keep watching Eugene when you first met him?

SPEAKER_04:

Um I liked how much of a pain in the arse he was. Uh I've always had a soft spot for characters that like that. Um, a good comic relief character shouldn't have to try too hard to be funny. Um something is funny when it's unexpected. And like we say to begin with, we're never sure what's going to come out of Eugene's mouth. Um, even when it's something simple like uh that's classified. I just found it to be really well written and I and I wanted more.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, even like his um his explanation as to why he has a mullet, which is that there was a professor that he had that it was probably even that guy was probably even a made-up person, but somebody along the way that he respected said, I I like the mullet, it makes you look interesting. You look like a fun guy, and he's like, I'm keeping it.

SPEAKER_00:

This isn't making me like him more so far. You all are failing at your assignment.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, the one thing that I like most about Eugene is that like people with Eugene's qualities tend to be uh really delusional about themselves. Whereas Eugene is very self-aware of all of his faults, and he will tell people exactly who he is. He'll be like, I'm a coward. He'll he'll say it, he'll he'll say it loud and proud. He's like, I'm a coward, I'm gonna do whatever I need to do to protect myself. Um, and that's just who I am.

SPEAKER_04:

I agree, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07:

Do you think he's a coward by the end of the show, though? Of course, yeah. Um I've I find so you're in season 10 right now, Jack, and you're still like, yeah, still a total coward. Well, there's nothing wrong with being a coward. Interesting. Say more. What is the virtue of being cowardly?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh dear. Right, here we go. Um, there is nothing wrong with deciding that you are a coward. Um, it's very easy, as we've said, uh as I've said to you before, to imagine oneself a hero when you are provided with the um uh the protection necessary to not have to admit that you are a coward.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's very true.

SPEAKER_04:

It's also uh I mean come on. It's uh I mean come on, um Dan. Um you um you've served, haven't you? You're a you're a yeah. Does it piss you off when people say this is what I would do?

SPEAKER_01:

I've uh I've seen what a lot of people do in really bad situations, and I think every single one of them that didn't exactly react the in the best way probably thought that they were the you know, the toughest person out there. In fact, a lot of times it's usually the person who talks the biggest. Um and you know, they'll be talking to you one minute and being like, yeah, we're gonna do this, and then the moment like an opportunity comes for them to disappear into the background, you turn around, they're gone. And um, I don't think that everyone acts that way. I think there's a lot of people that are brave and don't know it because they haven't really been tested yet. And then there's some people that think they're brave and aren't.

SPEAKER_07:

That's interesting. Yeah, I'm thinking about uh how calculated he is in the beginning that he attaches himself to two very tough people, pee people. I can't speak today. It's one of those days. He attaches himself to some very tough people, and uh and uh you know Abraham is uh was he military? Yes, yeah. And then Rosita, I don't know, she just had the outfit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, unlike Abraham the most.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I say that like Abraham's like the other half of my brain. So I've got I'm like half Abraham, half Eugene, and so you could imagine what it's like inside of my head.

SPEAKER_07:

But he finds Abraham and Rosita. Oh, right, Rosita also makes a in a way, Rosita is uh a counterpart to Eugene because she also makes a choice that like Abraham is a safe person to attach herself to uh in the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

And she ends up being quite tough and awesome. But he obviously makes a calculated choice to lie to them. He's he doesn't see that he has any value other than to pretend that he does by saying he has the cure and he needs their safe their safety. Why on earth do they forgive him when they find out that he lied?

SPEAKER_04:

Why that's very no, that's that that's very important though. Um I was very um glad to see that I am not the only person you know in the world who sees the the similarities between between Abra Abraham and Ahab of Moby Dick. Have you read Moby Dick?

SPEAKER_07:

When I was like 14, so I don't remember other than it's a really big whale.

SPEAKER_04:

Very, it's very, very, very similar. Interesting. And um, I think it would have been more more fun and more interesting had there been a relationship between Abraham and Eugene. Uh some uh as as you know, Eugene both provides and then re and then gets rid of his white whale. Um I would I would have thought it would have been very interesting for them to have more conversations, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I didn't see it that way, but now that you mention it, did you not did you not see that? I didn't. It didn't occur to me.

SPEAKER_07:

Abraham is totally Ahab. Okay, for the people like me who read Moby Dick and then promptly forgot it, you're gonna have to spell this out again like I'm a toddler, Jack. With the toddler voice. Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

He stands in front of the the great horde and he gives an action if in fact if I if I remember rightly, it's very similar to a a speech from Moby Dick. And what what Abraham Abraham represents is Ahab from Moby Dick. He has his white whale, he has the thing that he wants to go and search for, he has a thing that um he needs to find, but when it's gotten rid of by Eugene saying, you know, this this doesn't exist, then he's completely destroyed. But I think that it would have been more fun and more interesting for Abraham to then speak to Eugene and say, Why has this happened? I think it would have been interesting for Eugene to say to him, Why did you save my life? But uh that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_07:

It is a missed opportunity, yeah, because I don't fully get why they forgive Eugene.

SPEAKER_04:

No, neither do I. I think that's really weird.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it's I think they just accept him as a human being, and I don't know. I mean, it's not a it's not a quick process. Like Rosita's pissed. Pissed off at him for a really long time. Like there's a scene where they're all out practicing their machete skills, and Eugene's just not he's just like, I'm not good at this, and then she like unloads on him, and she's just like, You're terrible at everything. You suck, you should fucking go over there and be a child or something. I forget what she said, but something along those lines. Direct quote from Rosita, yep. That's exactly what she said. Um I think Rosita herself, she attaches herself to people that she can learn from. Um, she kind of says as much uh when she's talking about her past. And I think she sees Eugene the same way. Like Eugene's somebody that she can learn from um a lot of these like um engineering and and uh and high-end uh skills that require a lot of knowledge.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah. He is an interesting example. I'll give him this of like in community, whether it's the apocalypse or not. And I think it's very easy to forget this now, or we can just sort of ice people out if they piss us off, because that's what I would do. In 2025 world, I met someone like Eugene, he lies to me. I'm never talking to him again. You're in the zombie apocalypse, he has skills, and you're right, he's a human being. I don't think he's a soft, well, maybe he is a soft core sociopath, actually, Eugene. I don't know. But he's he's human, and you have to sort of accept that there are going to be people in your community that you don't really like, but they are still people, um, and that they can contribute. You just have to sort of like I I think of people that in my own life is like in concentric circles, and there's some people who I'm like, okay, you can exist in my world, but you're you're in an outer ring somewhere, and that's where Eugene would have to be, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Um Yeah, Gabriel found himself in that same outer ring, and I think Eugene spent time there, but Eugene also made himself um valuable to the group. That's his whole thing, is like he's always about making sure that he's valuable enough that they take care of him.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah. So you don't think he becomes braver over time? Because I literally have a question here that says, How do you see Eugene change as he becomes braver over time?

SPEAKER_04:

I do have an answer. Uh I certainly think it's the the the the most believable character development over time. I mean, the entire the the entire thing, uh the entire cast is made up of heroes, some more chivalrous than others, but um they all tend to be very skilled warriors or are able to become skilled warriors very quickly. Uh it can be argued that these are indeed the only people who would have a chance of survival at all, but it leaves Bethel uh very little room for development when it comes to bravery. With um with Eugene again it it's because it's unpredictable. We imagine that he's going to be this bumbling, dithering wuss who gets pushed over a lot, but but when he does something brave and actually pulls it off, it's more effective. Again, it's it's more believable. You know, what when he when he bites Dwight on the dick, it's not exactly Hollywood heroism, he doesn't leap up to his feet and like engage Dwight in splendorous combat, but it it's what I would have done, and it worked as well. Yeah. And he's a he he's a he's a character who's mainly driven by opportunism, like Dan said, Um, and he gradually learns how to use that drive for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, you know, even though he's he's driven by fear, and like his whole survival approach is by attaching himself to people who will deal with the most dangerous elements of the world for him, um, there's a lot of there's there's many instances where he overcomes his fear and actually does something heroic. Like um, I think the first time that we see it is when Glenn and a few other people um kind of got uh left behind on a supply run and they're about to die. Uh and here comes Eugene, the savior of the day, uh playing dubstep music as loud as he can in a van, trying luring the zombies away, even though he could have just gotten in that van and drove away himself and been like, yeah, those guys didn't make it back.

SPEAKER_04:

Agreed, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then we see it later in at the you know, spoiler, the end of season eight, um, and a few other times, like when he bit Dwight's dick.

SPEAKER_07:

I think that's a classic moment that's under disgust as a uh defense tech tactic. Um what other moments are there when Eugene really like makes a difference that if if we had done things my way, where I've been like, fuck you, Eugene, get out of here, uh things would have gone really badly for the Walking Dead group.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh what I depend I suppose that what that depends what you mean by a difference. Um convin convincing the the other the others that he had the idea of a cure was pretty smart.

SPEAKER_07:

I mean it did keep him alive.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. He'd most likely be dead had he not.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah, and if he hadn't done that, then later on he wouldn't have helped save Alexandria a few a few times in a few different ways.

SPEAKER_04:

But um, I suppose if we're if we're gonna have to be really big about it, it it has to be the the thing with the ammunition the ammunition and blowing everybody up. Uh blowing up the saviors has to be the big one.

SPEAKER_07:

All right, so again, for the person uh here amongst this group that doesn't have an amazing memory, can you all retell the story of the blowing up? Because it's like an impressionist painting in my head.

SPEAKER_01:

Um so Eugene made himself valuable to Negan by showing him that he was capable of reproducing ammunition. Well, didn't he do that?

SPEAKER_07:

Didn't he find out? Like he was doing it for Alexandria first.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Um, so the way that he demonstrated to Negan that he was able to make ammunition was by making a bullet for Rosita, which he tried to kill Negan with. It wasn't intentional that he he wasn't, it's not like he was putting it. He didn't walk up to Negan and was like, here you go. But Negan's like, oh, this is a we got a Smarty Pants. So he grabs Mr. Smarty Pants and he's like, I want you to be my bullet maker. So he kind of makes himself useful to Negan, who is now going to be his sole protector. And he becomes this very important p uh person among the saviors by mass producing lots of ammunition for this upcoming war against Rick and all of the other people. Uh he has a crisis of conscience uh in there and he decides that um he's going to he's gonna make sure that the primers aren't fully flushed when he's putting the primers into the shell casings. And this causes this would cause the primer to explode backwards out of the casing and rupture in the chamber and destroy the weapon in the person's hands.

SPEAKER_07:

Right. I completely forgot that happened. Welcome to my brain.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's a very simple and easy thing to do and hard to notice unless you're looking very closely, but he he took that risk um for the people of Alexandria so that they would have an a chance to fight back against Negan. Otherwise, Negan was gonna win. He had all the ammunition, he he had all the people, he had the best battle tactics, and he was gonna win. Um and the only way that uh it could have been defeated is with logistics, you know, like um rifles win wars or rifles win battles, but logistics win wars, and that's like a perfect example of that. Bravo.

SPEAKER_07:

I don't know why this is making me okay, you know what? I think it's working actually. I'm starting to appreciate Eugene a little bit more because now I'm thinking about um he's he's definitely a morally gray character, but you see him make choices that he could make different ones. Like, for example, uh the saviors on location, Negan has his full on harem, which is all women in weird. Little black dresses who are essentially, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, coerced into being one of his one of Negan's ladies. And one of the benefits that Negan gives him is like hangout time with the ladies. And I really feel like Eugene could have taken that in a different direction, but instead he was like, let's just play video games.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. He even says to them, like, um, you know, I know you don't want to be here, but while we're here, maybe, you know, you can just have a good time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Now, granted, he did use the opportunity to stroke his own ego by showing them that he could blow up stuff. Um, but he could have been very different in that context. And the early Eugene would lead me to believe that he would have been much more of a lecher. He's not a good or bad character.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

And you can see him weighing his choices and that he's aware that he could make the shittier choice in some circumstances and he he makes the choice not to, which is in its own way, I guess, admirable.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, going back to like the the peeping tom uh thing from season five, I wonder if that was just a really bad writing choice at the time. Like they just wanted to make it kind of scandalous. Because that's something that never came up later. Like he lived in the same house as them. Um, he he didn't take advantage of women in Negan's harem when he had the opportunity to. Like everything about his character post that time, especially going into season 11 that we won't speak of, um, you know, he just seems like a decent human being with a lot of heart. And that the peeping tom aspect never comes up again.

SPEAKER_04:

No, I agree. Um it it's the same as a I think they they put the peeping tom thing in just to to mean nothing. Um I d I think that um Eugene could have quite easily become a very different kind of character. Um he could have quite easily become uh for want of a better character, he could have quite easily become a um a Sheldon Cooper.

SPEAKER_01:

From the Big Bang Theory?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I never watched Eugene. Yeah. Um Eugene could have quite easily become a Sheldon Cooper, um, as hollow as an Easter egg, but nowhere near as sweet. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_07:

Um that's a burn.

SPEAKER_04:

And I think I I think that that that was maybe what they were trying to do with the with the whole peeping tom thing. Um it it didn't work.

SPEAKER_07:

No, it didn't, because it made me hate him instantly as somebody, you know, who uh uh has a uterus and has I don't know if anybody's peeping tomed on me, but I've certainly had lots of experiences of people being lecherous, especially when I was younger, um, which is extra creepy. And we know later on that he's in love with Rosita, and he does seem very lonely, but it he those earlier moments just made him feel like a lot of um cis hetero men that I've encountered that just don't have any social skills and are sort of longing for connection, but they have no idea how to do that. And so they just end up coming off super awkward with women. Um, and so that's like as somebody who's experienced people like Eugene, I think that might be the seed of why I hated him so much, even more than him lying, you know, like that and that that was his character-defining moment for me. So it's it is unfortunate if it was really just a bad choice in that one episode because it carries through for me the whole time. He just seems inept and emotionally immature. Neither of you disagree, I can tell. Yeah, I mean I think it was I think it was a go on go on that, go on that.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I I'm I'm done, I'm just doubling down. I think it was a writing error. I don't think that that belonged in Eugene's character. And I think maybe that might have also just been that they didn't know Eugene yet. Or maybe it was uh something that carried over from the comic or something.

SPEAKER_07:

Maybe, but I don't think we can talk about it as if it's an error error when it is in it. Like it's a canon thing that happens. And like, so the only way I can take it is that he had character growth around women because of Rosita's rejection, maybe. And like him, I think at some point, like if I'm gonna I'm gonna stretch it here and say that he saw Rosita as an object in early days and then eventually realized that she was a full human being with autonomy who deserved respect, and then he extended that to other women. That's the best I can give Eugene.

SPEAKER_04:

That's that's the only thing it can be. You really think so? You really think that he saw Rosita as an object?

SPEAKER_07:

I think in the early days, just because of the way he was portrayed as being sort of just like salacious with her, like he, like, you know, and also the way that frankly she was portrayed in the show in the early days. Like she was absolutely the eye candy in those early seasons. Um, and I don't think they gave her a lot of depth until a little bit later. So I don't think it was just Eugene's fault. I think it was the way that they portrayed Rosita as like the object of sexual desire.

SPEAKER_04:

Interesting, interesting. Feel free to disagree. That's a bit fun. No, uh no, I don't agree, but um but but but but I I understand what you're what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, you've actually watched it more recently, so like you can feel free to say, hey, here's some things that I've I just don't think you're right, Leah. I won't hate you. I'm only gonna hate you for not loving smashing pumpkins.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think I think the smashing pumpkins debate.

SPEAKER_07:

That would be the real end for us. But I can get I I would love to be convinced that I'm wrong. Because this is like this is the lens that I have as somebody who gets, you know, like is I think hyper-aware of gender dynamics and the objectification of women. And um, maybe in some cases that may actually lead me to not see the nuance because I'm annoyed by that aspect of it.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, no, I suppose I I understand what you're trying to say, but um I I personally, I as I've said before, um I see the um the romantic thing between Rosita and Eugene as being completely unnecessary. I d um I I don't understand why it's there at all. I see it as a um almost like a red herring.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it doesn't really lead anywhere. I mean, like in later seasons there's talk between Eugene and Rosita about things like that. Um, but it doesn't it doesn't lead to a thing between him and Rosita. In fact, it's it's used as like a a way for uh I think this is season eleven to be honest. So don't ruin it for J Jack. I I don't think it's a big thing. It's just he has feelings for someone who's not Ros Rosita, and Rosita's like trying to convince him that he has feelings for this person, and and she's like she's like, Really? You don't have any feelings for this person? Then kiss me. Because she knows. So she's like, she's like, Yeah, uh if if if that's not how you feel, then you know. And then he didn't. Wow. Character growth for you. That's the care that's what we were looking for. That was the character growth.

SPEAKER_07:

Jack, are you at the part where he's talking to somebody that he's interested in? I'm not gonna say more because I don't want to ruin things for you.

SPEAKER_04:

No, I've just uh uh we've just seen uh where I am, we've just seen the bit with um where he's talking to Rosetta. Okay. But um but the only thing that's in my mind at the moment is everything that's going on with Alpha. What a very interesting character she is.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Doesn't Egan end up shagging her? Yes. And he's way into it. Like with the masks on and everything. We're talking about the whisperers, the people who walk around with uh zombie skin face masks.

SPEAKER_07:

And the leader with her zombie skin mask becomes a becomes a whole thing.

SPEAKER_04:

I think she sort of sounds like a sort of like a true that she almost she sounds almost like Truman Capote. Maybe that's what she was going for.

SPEAKER_07:

You know, she deserves a whole episode, actually. We should definitely talk just about Alpha Channel and tell you what.

SPEAKER_02:

Why don't you why don't you come over here and you can and you can and you can sleep with me, Negan.

SPEAKER_01:

I love how into it Negan was. Yeah. That was that was the best part about the No don't no, don't tell me, don't tell me, don't tell me. Oh, you haven't you haven't gotten there yet.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, I've spoiled it.

SPEAKER_04:

All right. I hope that he really goes, I really hope that he goes for it. Because I'll tell you something. I I really like the guy that plays Negan. I think he's incredibly attractive. So when he ends up shagging Alpha, I hope that it's incredibly sexy.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not gonna tell you if you're gonna get your wishes um that. We've already given away too much.

SPEAKER_07:

But I uh what's his name what's his real name, the guy who plays Negan?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah, he is incredibly charismatic and an amazing actor. So I hope you get your wish, Jack. Um, probably because I'm me, I've blocked it out. Uh, so I don't remember, to be honest, exactly what that looks like going down. But it does make me think we need to have a conversation just about the whisperers one day.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_07:

She's a wild character.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't like her. I think she's a terrible character.

SPEAKER_07:

You don't like her as a character.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, very badly written as well.

SPEAKER_07:

So, what's the contract? Like, what is it about her that makes her a badly written character that is the opposite for Eugene that makes Eugene compelling for you?

SPEAKER_03:

Because unlike Eugene, she is really stupidly written. I don't really understand why I need to come over here. Look me in the eye and tell me why I am so scary.

SPEAKER_01:

I you know, I agree. I you know, this is seasons 11 is kind of like where the the Walking Dead is. You're seeing like a decline happening. And I feel like most people, if I I think that people should watch up until the end of season eight. I think the end of season eight, like this is a full story, um, and you you should you should go that far. Whether or not you continue with season nine to eleven, that's your choice. I don't recommend 11, but nine and ten, it's okay. Jack, are you gonna watch all the way through 11?

SPEAKER_07:

Or have you committed? Yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_04:

Um I'll see what happens. But um, even though everybody has said, you know, don't don't watch it after season 11, you know, it it's really rubbish. But you know, I'm gonna have to.

SPEAKER_07:

Well, if you need therapy after watching season 11, we are here for you, Jack. We've been through it.

SPEAKER_04:

Um what happens in season 11? What what what what do I need to worry about?

SPEAKER_07:

It's the worst writing ever. It makes no sense and it's deeply disappointing. So if you're upset about the alpha, you're gonna you're gonna be you're gonna you're gonna be really it's like it'll be rage watching. If you watch it, you're just gonna be mad.

SPEAKER_04:

Well no, if it if if it's just alpha stuff, I won't be worried, but no, no, it's alpha's not a thing, yeah. It's new.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a new thing and it's I know she ends up dying, but yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

So it's it's hard to explain. I'll put it this way. I think Alpha's a great character compared to what comes next.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's just a lot of really weird choices. There's literally an episode that starts off like it's an episode of like CSI Miami. Like they are investigating a crime scene like with flags and chalk outlines.

SPEAKER_07:

It's bad. However, Eugene's arc, like I said, I think there's some level of redemption for season 10 and 11 with Eugene's arc. Eugene is writing a sci-fi novel. Yeah, like shockingly, that's probably one of the more interesting parts of the show for me.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you just focus on that, you'll be okay. He is really dedicated to finishing this novel, despite what everything else that's going on. It comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_07:

Maybe they should do a spin-off of Eugene's sci-fi novel.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Would you read it? Jack, would you read Eugene's sci-fi novel? What I bollocks.

SPEAKER_01:

It's written by Eugene. It might be really good.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe good, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07:

Do we need more Eugene's in our apocalypse storytelling?

SPEAKER_04:

Um Yes, I think we do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I mean he's a he's a complex character that doesn't fit the mold of like the hero. Um and I I find I find those types of characters always way more interesting than the person who's super prepared that has the answer for everything. Like less fewer Brad Pitts, more Eugene's. I can get with that. Like if World War Z had Eugene instead of Brad Pitt, that'd be a much better movie.

SPEAKER_07:

You know what I gotta agree. I think you've done it. I think you've made me slowercase T team Eugene.

SPEAKER_01:

We should reimagine um zombie movies as if they had Eugene as the main character instead of the main character that they went with.

SPEAKER_07:

That would be wonderful. If Eugene was gonna show up in your book Weird Water, um, how would he interact with Andromeda?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh I'm not entirely sure. Um they'd probably get together and um decide. Oh. What kind of get together? What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_07:

She's only she's only 15 years old. Thank you for reminding me that. I forgot for a second that she was a teen.

SPEAKER_01:

For clarifying that.

SPEAKER_04:

No, they they probably cut they probably come together and realize um work everything how they were going to work everything out.

SPEAKER_07:

This is my final question for you, Jack, bringing it full circle. If Eugene was a rune, would he be weird?

SPEAKER_04:

Gene would most definitely be weird if we're talking about weird W-Y-R-D.

SPEAKER_01:

Probably in spellings, to be fair.

SPEAKER_04:

What makes him the weirdest? Yeah. It would most probably be both. And uh yeah, I I I can't I can't talk about it. Yeah, it would definitely be both.

SPEAKER_07:

So, Jack, when you're writing things like Weird Water, I I'm gonna say it's probably a stretch that Eugene was a direct inspiration for you. However, he is a very interesting character. What is it about a character like Eugene that could teach anybody about how to write an interesting character?

SPEAKER_04:

Writing a guy like Eugene shows you how to write something really good. Um he teaches us that's gone. Now speaking to you from a different time. Ooh. Um I unfortunately had some technical difficulties just towards the end of this recording. I'm not entirely sure what happened, but my internet suddenly went off. I looked at my router and saw that all of the lights on it had turned off. When I went over to reset it, I knocked over my drink. When I then turned around to go and grab a towel, I knocked over the bottle from which I had been pouring the drink, leaving me with no internet, no drink, a wet carpet, and wondering what on earth I'd done to deserve such misfortune. Uh so I thought I'd I'd record this little apology for Dan and Leah to put on to the end of the episode. Uh I'm sorry to you, the listeners, and I'm sorry to them as well, and I want to thank them very much for having me on. It's a shame that we didn't get to do the complete episode, but at least I we got the majority of it in the bag. It could have been worse, it could have happened right at the start.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, we lost Jack. Yeah, Jack to the weird water. Some yeah, some tactical weird water difficulties. I think it was the ghost at the top of the stairs. The ghost internet. Yeah. Well, and in fact, I'm pretty sure I saw the ghost right before Jack's connection disconnected.

SPEAKER_07:

Could have also been an alien. We don't know. There was a ghost and an alien. I saw it with the. If you see Jack like this post once it comes out on Instagram, it was the ghost. It was oh, so we know Jack's gone. Or the alien. Oh no. Um, they have replaced him actually. But the good news is is that his book has already been get provided to his publisher. It's coming out. We don't know when because Jack has disappeared into the weird water.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Um and we don't have to worry about the ghosts. No. But if you want to uh make sure you are following Jack Callahan so you can be one of the first to get his book when it comes out, you can follow him on Instagram at Jack Callahan Author in the show notes. And we'll make sure to link uh in the show notes where you can get his book.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, thanks everybody for listening to the Zombie Book Club.

SPEAKER_07:

Tell us if you're Team Eugene. Yeah. Lowercase or uppercase. I'm lowercase team Eugene. I'm uppercase Team Eugene. Jack, I think, is also uppercase Team Eugene.

SPEAKER_01:

I think so. Yeah. Um if you want to support us, you can leave a rating or review. Five stars, please. Uh we like those fives. Um but you can also send us a voicemail up to three minutes. 614-699-00000006. It's only three, actually. But I just keep saying zeros. Um also, if you want to send us a book pitch, you can send it through that voicemail or send it to our email address. Either way. And uh we might uh feature you in an elevator pitch if uh if you have one of those. Um you could also sign up for our newsletter and uh if you want to follow us on Instagram, it's where we're at at Zombie Book Club Podcast. It's where we found Jack. It is.

SPEAKER_07:

Wouldn't have Jack without us. And also, for those who celebrate, happy solstice, it's the longest night. Oh yeah. Yeah, it is a long night, isn't it? And it's only gonna get brighter from here. So if you're having a bad day or a hard year, good news, the sun is coming back for all of us to be a little bit longer every day, a little bit warmer every day for those of us who also hate winter, aka me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the end is nigh, but the sun is high. It's not, but it will be. It will be, it's getting longer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07:

Um, but bye, everybody. Don't die. Don't die. Bye.

Contributor

Dan

Host
Contributor

Leah

Host