Zombie Book Club

Kate L. Mary - Author of 30+ Zombie Books | Zombie Book Club Ep 127

• Zombie Book Club • Season 3 • Episode 127

Share episode

Join us for an unforgettable conversation with award‑winning author Kate L. Mary, the mastermind behind the Broken World saga and many others. Kate walks us through the genesis of her slow‑burn apocalypse, explaining why she chose a stripper‑protagonist to humanize the chaos and how the fan‑favorite character Angus evolved from a wild catalyst into the emotional core of his own series. She also shares the hurdles she faced in traditional publishing—being told “no market for zombies”—and how self‑publishing empowered her to let readers decide the fate of her world.

Beyond the zombies, Kate delves into the deeper social themes woven throughout her books: deconstructing evangelical conservatism, championing queer, trans, and disability representation, and confronting reproductive‑rights oppression. She talks candidly about balancing mental‑health needs with creativity and the therapeutic power of dystopian storytelling.




Relevant Episode Links:




Click here to back Ollies 'MAZE 1: Staken; Not Stirred' on kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ollieeatsbrains/maze-1-staken-not-stirred


Help Keep Zombie Book Club alive!!! - https://www.gofundme.com/f/keep-zombie-book-club-alive



Zombie Book Club Links

SPEAKER_00:

The only book club where the book is uh it's actually, I'm not gonna kid you here, it's 65 books. And I need a book report on my desk by the end of the week. I'm Dan and one of my shell-shocks looking at this library of zombie books. I'm writing a book about a student of cultural anthropology and history who uses her skills and knowledge to survive an overcrowded refugee camp during the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know how I'm supposed to follow that with Welcome back to the show, Zombesties, but I guess I am. Just like that. Yeah, that's uh that sounds rough for your main character. I'm Leah, and today we are talking with the one and only, Kate L. Mary. Kate, as I'm sure many of you listening know, is an award-winning best-selling author who has built entire worlds for readers to get lost in. Her novels have earned her top honors across the sci-fi fantasy and post-apocalyptic genres, including, but not limited to, because it's so long that this would be the whole episode of awards. Include, but not limited to, the Kindle Book Awards, the Roan Awards, the Moonbeam Children's Book Awards, and a Bragg Medallion recipient and reader's favorite. And yes, Kate is the author of 65 books and counting, including the Amazon best-selling series, Broken World, and acclaimed titles like Outliers, Tribe of Daughters, and The Golden Cage. She is beloved in the zombie reader community and easily one of the most requested guests we've ever had on Zombie Book Club. So having her here today is a true milestone for us. Welcome to the show, Kate. We are thrilled you're here.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. It's really nice to be here. I'm excited that we finally get to do this. We've been talking about it for a while.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, I I remember finding your books while mowing the lawn. Um, I think this might have even been pre-Zombie Book Club, or maybe right after we first started it. But, anyways, I'm like, I need a series that there's a you know, a bunch of books. I just want to dive into a series. And uh, and then I heard about somebody out there who had written, I don't even know what the number was at that time. I think it might have been in the 30s. Uh, or at least that's the website that I found.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um I I put out my 40th book on my 40th birthday, so that was five years ago.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Almost six because my birthday's coming up. So happy birthday. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but yeah, you you you became the ears, the the thing in my ears while the the lawn was being mowed, and uh and and I and I love that I had so much, so much to go through.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and not only have we heard so many folks talk about how much they love your books that are readers, but also I've heard folks tell me as authors that you have inspired them. So your um butterfly effect, is that a good I'm not the writer here, is real. You've had a real impact in this community. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, um, I think you you should know that. It's it's very clear people love you. We have some rapid fire questions that we love to ask everybody new onto the show. And just gut reaction. Uh, what do you think? Would you choose a 40-hour work week or living in a zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and keep in mind if you choose one, everybody in the world is is dead. Um the other one you have a bone car.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm gonna be honest, that's really hard for me because I have not worked outside the home since before my oldest child was born, and that's 21 years ago. So uh I can't imagine working a 40-hour work week.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, if it's a 40-hour work week, I have to choose 40-hour work week because I'm not gonna kill most of the world, but man, that uh that's gonna be hard. That is gonna be hard to adjust to.

SPEAKER_00:

Um well, unfortunately, uh, it is the zombie apocalypse. I you know what probably happened is uh somebody was like, you have to you have to go out into the workforce now. Like we've got a job for you lined up at Walmart. And we want you to work for them. And you're like, Apocalypse. You're hitting the apocalypse button like 50 times. Uh so uh it just happens to be the apocalypse. You uh you come across like a warehouse. Um in this warehouse, there is an pretty much unlimited supply uh of shelf stable food. Um for some reason, there's magic that allows you to choose what that food is. And it's just one item. Yeah. Um you have to eat this for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh I know this is not a visual um format, but you all should have seen Kate's face for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02:

It has to be a non-perishable thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That might affect how long your life forage. You can find other things. This is like your main source.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I would have to probably go with black beans. I really like that black beans. It has all the fiber that you need, which I, you know, getting older, you need the fiber. And uh and then you can do a lot with black beans. So that's probably what I would do.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. Yeah. I like I think that's great. We we have like, I don't know, like 50 or 60 pounds of black beans right in this room.

SPEAKER_03:

So oh wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So if you want to come over, we've got to be.

SPEAKER_01:

It'll get us through a few days. But you can make black bean brownies, black bean burgers, I'm gonna have bryson beans, like so many things. So beans and peanut butter, I think, are like our two number one answers we get for that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I don't think I could eat. I love peanut butter, but I don't think I could eat that every day. I do eat it every day. Yeah, but if that's the only that's the only thing, yeah. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, at the beginning of my last work season, I bought this giant tub of peanut butter pretzels. You know, the ones that like they're like a little pretzel pocket with peanut butter inside. And I thought they were delicious for a while. Um, but it's this tub, it's it's huge. It's like a it's like a five-gallon tub, or maybe no, like it's a little two-gallon. Five gallons. Um and I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna like whenever I get hungry at work, I'm just gonna eat these. It was like less than a week, and I'm just like, I can never eat another one of these again.

SPEAKER_02:

I I love those also, but yeah, I'll buy them and then I I agree. I'm like, oh, these are amazing. And then I'm like, well, I'm not buying those for about two years because I've had enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. You're trying to find people to pawn them off on, like, hey, do you like peanut butter pretzels?

SPEAKER_01:

Because I got a deal for you. I took your leftover peanut butter pretzels and I enjoyed them. But also I didn't eat them for every time I was hungry for a week. All right, a more fun question for you. Uh, you're hanging out in this warehouse full of beans, and you also happen to find by some other strange zombie apocalypse miracle a working solar-powered DVD player and television with a box set of some kind, a show, a movie, a series, whatever. What would you pick to just watch on repeat?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's tough. If you're gonna ask me my favorite movies, I could have told you those immediately. But a box set. Ooh. I would think I would have to go with a show because it's you get a much longer thing with that. So, oh, we re-watch the office a lot. Yes. So I think that's probably what I would do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's a great choice.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's particularly funny though, because you just talked about how much you you hate the 40-hour workweek. But in the zombie apocalypse, you'll be for comfort watching the work week.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, if I if I'd worked in that office, maybe it would have been more enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I mean, I guess if you could be the person putting the the uh stapler, Dwight Shrute stapler in the jello.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That's a good time.

SPEAKER_01:

But if you're Dwight, maybe less less fun. I don't know. I think Dwight has a really good time at work.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah. Uh yeah. I mean, he said it's his it's his favorite place in the world. He wants to he wanted to die there. So that's funny.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what? Dwight Shroot his best life. Can you imagine Dwight Schroute and the Apocalypse? What do you think he would do, Kate?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, you know what? There is a little comic book um that you can buy, The Office, and Dwight uh is it's there's a zombie apocalypse. And I bought it for my husband for Christmas a few years ago. And and Dwight's the hero, obviously. So right, yeah. Yeah. You can buy it. That there are a couple little uh I can't I can't remember how I came across it. Um, but there are a couple comic books that are set in the office world that one is the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's wow, I just was making a joke. Somebody did that.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I I could see how like Dwight could be like a character kind of like um like Bill in The Last of Us. Like a total weirdo, bunker in the basement, but like it hits the fan, and he's just like, Well, I guess I'm gonna go to Home Depot and steal everything. He's got his turn turnips, right? No, beets. He's got his beats.

SPEAKER_02:

Beats, yeah. And but there is a cold open. Um, one of the episodes at The Office, there's a cold open where Dwight is eating a bunch of food in the break room, a big can of I think it was chili because he had to like replenish his stuff. It was starting to expire. Oh, that he has his stock for the apocalypse, and yeah, of course, Dwight Dwight's messing with him. And so that's a really great cold open. Sorry, Jim's messing with Dwight. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And also his box set would be Battlestar Galactica.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, which is actually definitely would.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um last last rapid fire question we have here. Okay. Uh which fictional character that you've written would you choose to team up with in the zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, well, I I have to go with my fan favorite, which is Angus, because I mean, he's awesome. So it's gonna be really rough in the beginning, but eventually it's gonna pay off.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah. You need you need somebody who can who can take care of business sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, I have to do that. Uh he was he's definitely the fan favorite, which is crazy because I did not expect that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um you've written 65 books, as we have said repeatedly, because we are in awe of you. Uh how many of those have zombies in them? I I know we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02:

You should have looked before your ass really pulled. Um let's see. I can't believe you're making me do this.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't have to give you can give us an approximate number.

SPEAKER_00:

We won't hold it.

SPEAKER_02:

Over 30. Over 30. Over 30.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe that's why I found that statistic when when I was out there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I know that you've really outside of the zombie apocalypse show. How dare you.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah, it's a lot. And it was definitely not my plan. Um, but when I started writing, uh it's a very long story, but I obviously it was the peak height of The Walking Dead, and I've always loved zombie anything, and then that so I just started writing it. And at that point I was still trying to get a traditional book deal and an agent and everything. But everything I read was that there's no market for zombie books, and so um traditional publishers really don't take them.

SPEAKER_03:

Really?

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, so I was just like, okay, well, I'm I enjoyed writing this, I'm just gonna self-publish it then. Um, and at that point, I did have an agent by that point, um, and a book deal, I think. It was around the same time that I did that. Um, but I ex I put it out expecting like I was like, well, hopefully, like a handful of people other than my family and friends buy it. And it did so well. Uh, I didn't even have any money for marketing because I I just it was just word of mouth, and I could not believe it, how well it did. Um, so obviously that whole thing that tradition traditional publishers just don't like certain genres. They just don't. And so um that's that apoc zombies and really anything apocalyptic unless it's very, very literary, like um Station 11 or you know, stuff like that, they just don't want it. So I it's and which is great because I've done the traditional publishing thing and I much prefer to self-publish.

SPEAKER_01:

So I mean interesting. So you've done both, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You've landed on self-publishing. I mean, they told Robert Kirkman that zombies weren't marketably uh viable, you know. Um I had a a friend of mine, brief uh brief sidebar. Um he was a script writer and he wrote a script that was basically cowboys and zombies. Um and this was like 2008 or 2009, and they're just like, Yeah, there's no market for it. And then like the next year, Red Dead Redemption came out and they had the expansion of Undead Nightmare, and it was like crazy popular.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I I I think that so what I've learned from uh doing the traditional publishing thing is that they just want to play it safe. Yeah. So my book, Tribe of Daughters, is a dystopian, it's a post-apocalyptic story set in a um matriarchal society. And my agent loved it. And um so she uh she we sent it out to a lot of publishers, um, editors and uh Sourcebooks, the editor at Sourcebooks loved it. Um and the entire editorial team read it and loved it. And they said, We just don't know where to put it in our catalog. At the front.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because it mixes genres and they just didn't know, they were like, we just don't know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I think that was that was the end of me trying to like get a publishing deal with a bigger pub bigger publisher because I was just like, what's the point? If you have a whole editorial team who loves it, and they give me such great feedback, so then when I re- when I revised it and published it myself, they definitely made it better. But well, like if you love it, then you publish it. So they they really, really play safe. They I mean it's just like the same thing. My husband and I always complain when a new show is coming out on TV, it's either doctors, lawyers, cops, and like can you please make something different? How many lawyer shows do we need?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, really. I mean all the the movie reboots that are happening. It's like, can we swing original? And I think you're absolutely right. The most original stuff happening right now is in the indie verse.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So you don't have the stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

They just want to play it safe, but they don't wanna, yeah, they don't want to do anything that's uh like even remotely risky, which is stupid because they have the money to to advertise for stuff. Like it's ridiculous. I was getting my nails done the other day, and there were TV in the nail salon was advertising the Harry Potter series on Audible. And I was like, you're spending money to advertise one of the most popular series of all time. Maybe if you spent that money on some riskier things, we might have some different stuff out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. People that want to read Harry Potter don't need to be reminded that they want to read Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_01:

But also, why are we platforming? And uh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

There's so many other great stories. Uh I've never read a Harry Potter book, and I will never read a Harry Potter book.

SPEAKER_01:

Me neither. I feel like we're in a special club of non-reading. Like, yeah. Thankfully, I didn't have to go through the grief of realizing that she wasn't a person I'd want to support. I just was like, I just never did. So this is great for me. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Nope. I'm so glad of that too. And I I just, I don't know, it's just me personally. I'm not a magic person. It just doesn't sit with me. I wish I could because it would sell really well, but I just don't I don't like it. I start reading it and I'm like, uh, I just don't want this. So I never wanted to read it. And then um people kept trying to pressure me into reading it, and I was like, I don't like magic. I'm telling you, I don't like this. My husband read the first one. He's only ever read the first one, and he was like, You won't like it. And I was like, I know.

SPEAKER_01:

So what is it about zombies then that like just really appeals to you?

SPEAKER_02:

I like survival stuff, and I also like, and that's the other reason I like dystopian, is that I like the idea of wiping out everything that we have and seeing what happens, which I just I think also, especially in an apocalyptic scenario, it brings out the best or the worst in people. And um, so it's interesting to see how people rise to the occasion. You know, there are people you would think that would be really brave and useful who are not, and then people who you think we're are not gonna be able to help at all are not gonna succeed, and they end up being the star of you know, the apocalypse. And I think that's really I think it's a really just great idea because it it's really about humanity and um how different we all are and and how we process things. And also, I also believe I mean, a lot of people are just really, really horrible, shitty people, and they're only good members of society because of laws and the possibility of getting in trouble. And the apocalypse takes that away, and so you can really see who people really are deep down.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it reminds me of a saying that Dan you said to me, I think a long time ago, which is like, you know who someone is, you could you do it. I'm gonna like butcher a beautiful saying, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um I forget who this was from. It was a a a um a Chinese poet and tactician. Uh and normally I would remember the name, but not today. But um they said he said that you could you could live with a man for 40 years, you could share every meal with them, you could talk on every subject, but when you uh if you held that man over a volcano, that would be the day that you met him. And uh and I've like I've I've seen I've seen some people in some really bad situations, and I I found this to be true. And you either find you either find some really good or some really bad in there. But people are when when they uh when they have their feet to the fire, they're going to act in really big ways.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And that is not to get super crazy political or anything, but yeah, that's been the last five years since COVID. Is that I saw things and I mean growing up super, super conservative evangelical, like I most of the people I know from my youth are Christians, and I'm using quotes because I don't think there's very much Christian happening right now. Um and seeing some of their reactions to things, uh it was so shocking, it was so eye-opening, and um yeah, I I you don't know who a person is until the shit hits the pan.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and there's permission to be, I feel like the last few years there's been permission since 2016 really to like say out loud and proudly all of your worst thoughts. Yeah. Um, and that has been really hard to see. I remember um in 2016 when he was first elected, I that was like two days later we had these horrifying posts. At the university I worked at that were all basically like a white supremacist group's recruitment posters. And just imagine all the things that those posters would say. They did. And it was I don't that was not a thing that was happening before. And then it was just suddenly everybody came out of the woodwork and was like, oh, by the way, these are my real thoughts and feelings.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

They were all good at hiding for a long time. And then then somebody was like, no, you're you're right for thinking the things that you think. You should say them out loud.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. It's been a shocking. I mean, I guess it's been close, it's close to a decade now. So wild.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yep. Um we'll dig deeper into that a little bit later, but I would love to just take a moment and talk about uh your broken world series. One of the most infamous, not inf inf is infamous a bad word. I'm just going to ask this question live that I've always wondered and probably should look up.

SPEAKER_00:

It sounds bad if you break it down. In famous.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, famous for we'll get rid of the eye-own. Which one means really flammable? I feel like it has a con. I just I probably should just use the dictionary. So sorry for asking you live. But for what is the series you're most well known for uh is Broken World. And I would love to hear what was the initial inspiration like. What was the moment that story came to you?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, I wrote it at the peak popularity of The Walking Dead. Uh and I'm talking like the first the first one, the Broken World. I think it was it was before Merle came back in to the scene. So he and Daryl had never been in any episodes together. But um obviously, just like everybody, Daryl Dixon is was such a complex uh like character that it just draws you in because you you love him one episode, you hate in the next episode, and I just loved that kind of that anti-hero thing. And um I I was like I just loved the idea of two horrible people who become you know a hero through all of this. Like I said, you know, the apocalypse really brings out the best or the worst or people or COVID or whatever. Um and so I just wanted complex characters. I I loved the idea of a group of people who never would have met, had nothing in common, who create, who get together to survive, but then create like something that's even closer than a family.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so that was the thing. And um, and I just loved the idea of the apocalypse and and uh adding zombies in it to it as like just an extra layer because not only do you have to survive, figure out how to survive in a world where you don't have all your you know the normal conveniences of life, but you have to worry about getting your face eaten off when you grow out to find food. So it's just this extra thing to add. Because I love any apocalyptic scenario. Um, but yeah, but it's the zombies that it's like, okay, so it just adds that extra layer. And uh so when I originally, and spoiler if you haven't read, sorry, when I originally started writing it, because my zombies don't come in until the like more than halfway through the first book. Um so when I first started writing it, I was literally just going to make it come up at the very end of the first book as a surprise. But then I was like, oh, I might alienate some readers because I know there are certain people who just don't like zombies. And so I wanted it, you know, but I mean it literally says zombie apocalypse book on the cover. Yeah. But you know, you should know what you're getting at. People, yeah, you know, even even readers can't read. So yeah, but you know, because I've had people even halfway through the book, they're like, I read half of the book and then zombies popped up. That's ridiculous. And I was like, I put it on the cover. Like, I put it on the cover for a reason. So but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I really loved the way that that book started because um like I didn't know what to expect. Like this was just something that I found as a suggestion on some website. Um, I didn't know a whole lot about it. So I'm like, I'm just gonna give it a shot. And I'm just over here mowing the lawn. I'm listening along, and what I loved is that your story started like while there's still there's still infrastructure, like people are still alive, there's there's still a government, but it's already changed. Like you've got um you've got like roadblocks, you've got people, you need paperwork in order to travel. Like things have already broken down. So the zombies already existed. It was just it just wasn't real yet. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I I mean, to each their own, uh everybody writes zombie stuff differently, but I feel like in certain scenarios, it just happens so fast that um like there would be this lag. There there would be a time where you're thinking, like, oh, we can still come back from this, we can still stop this. And um, but I'm like, I like that that slow burn of everybody's still like not sure what's gonna happen, and not sure if the world can recover and is still holding out hope, and then to get through it, and the hope slowly starts to die, and reality slowly starts to sink in. Because that's really even if it was something that happened within a week, that's really how it would be. Within a week, you would go through those stages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And even then, I think there'd be I I think it would take a while before all it because I'd always be like, Well, what about in some other place that I don't know about yet? What if we get to this next community? Maybe they've got it figured out. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I heard the West Coast has it figured out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Like uh Pacific Playland is safe. Let's go there. But uh yeah, it was just and I think it was really enjoyable too doing it that slowly because I was able to build those characters so well too, and and create their backgrounds. And I think that's one thing that The Walking Did Dead did such a good job of in the first few seasons is really building those characters to create them so that you can love them so much and even love to hate them depending on who they were. So um I think that's that is one of my biggest things with writing is that I want to create these characters that feel so real, and I want to put in as much as much diversity too, because that is also realistic. Even living in the little mostly white bubble that I live in here in my small town in Ohio. If you're traveling during the apocalypse, you're gonna run into so many people who are different than you, and you're gonna have to deal with that, and it's gonna be uncomfortable at times.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Especially for yeah, especially for people who don't embrace any kind of diversity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Also, you might run into a couple of uh rough, rough fringe of of society types. Yeah, yeah. That are really comfortable camping in the woods.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um your main character of the Broken World series is a stripper. Um what what was the process for deciding who your main character was gonna be?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh god. Okay, so um I'm gonna say this and then I will uh text you tomorrow and make sure that it's okay to keep it in. So my best friend I met uh in the military, her husband and my husband are both C7, we're both C17 pilots in the Air Force, and we met. And uh when I first met her, um we were brand new friends, and we had a garage sale together. Our husbands were deployed, and we were both trying to find friends because we hadn't been in the base at the base very long. And so she's like, I'll do a garage sale with you. And and she came over and she had these teeny tiny little like tank tops and everything.

SPEAKER_00:

And I was like, What wears tank tops like this?

SPEAKER_02:

I was like, whose cloth are these? Did you take these from a teenager? She was like, Oh yeah, they used to be not. She had just had a baby, so she was like, I can't wear them anymore, and I'm not going to. And we were just talking, and she's like, Well, I used to be a stripper. So, and I was just like still me, little conservative, because this was um our daughters are are also best friends, and they're both 16 now. So this has been 16 years ago, and I've had not even really started deconstructing, and I was like, Oh my god, I have met a stripper. Oh but yeah, so but it was uh Yeah. So, but it was it so when I started writing the book, I was just it was kind of a nod to her. I was like, haha, I'm gonna make my you know, my character a stripper, but also it was, you know, it was a way to humanize people too, because I also I mean I was totally blown away by that idea at that time because of my crazy upbringing. But now I'm just like, hey, what? Guess what? Some people are strippers. She was like, you know, I made really good money and I was in college, so I'm like, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

There's not enough, um, dare I say, not enough stripper perspective out there. Yeah, like strippers are we're actually talking about this with a another author friend that strippers are like they're like uh the thing, they're the object that's like in the background. Yeah. And so for you to have someone be in the foreground, like you said, is humanizing and also a reminder, like it's interesting that that was even in part of your process of like choosing that person to be your main character of your own journey of humanizing them. But I think it's really important that as a society, we that they're not like always it's just background ornaments in television shows for the male gays. Like that's their people. So I really loved that choice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I and I was like, you know, because she's not just a stripter stripper, she's a person who moved away to try to make a better life for herself. She had this whole backstory, and then as soon as the shit hit the fan, like she's so concerned about this kid that she gave up for adoption that she's never even like she hasn't met in four years. And so, you know, like people have layers, and it doesn't matter what their job is, it doesn't matter who they are. We're all people. And so yeah, it was it was also yeah, I think even back then it was still kind of um like therapy for me to deconstruct all of that stuff and to create these characters where I'm like, oh, I was uncomfortable with this, but I'm gonna work through it by creating this character and realizing that they're just a person just like me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like all of us, our jobs are one facet and our society makes them like it's like the first thing you ask people, what do you do? But most of the time that's not really the most important thing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um whenever I'm either reading or or dreaming up a story about the zombie apocalypse, like one of the first questions that I always ask about a character is like, Why did this person survive? Like what attributes did this person have to make it to this stage of the apocalypse where now they're they're dual-wielding machine guns and jumping through explosions. And like as a like as the main character of the stripper gives a lot of context as to like what this person has been through in the past, even if you don't actually know right away. Like, you know, if their job is to take off their clothes in front of uh drunk, lonely dudes, they they've grown some extra layers of skin. And uh they've probably been through some things that most people can't imagine.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think that in an event like that, people who have been really hard things are going to be more likely to survive because they know how to fight, where people who've had cushy lives, uh, it they're gonna just be totally lost. And which is another great thing I love about apocalyptic scenarios, is I would definitely prefer people who've had a difficult life on my team rather than like the rich guy over there who has never had to do anything on his own. Like, how is how are they gonna survive?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. They don't have resiliency. I won't name names, but I learned recently there was somebody who knew somebody in an art school as vague as I can get, and they refused to learn how to draw hands. That was the look I had too. And then like the next day, I was like, I have to ask you about this person because I'm really confused why you would go to art school and refuse how to draw the like an essential body part. And then they explained that this person was very wealthy and then quit the next semester because they just didn't want to. And I was like, oh, okay, this makes sense. This person can be used to any form, like literally any form of adversity, including trying to draw something that's hard. Um that's not to say that wealthy people don't go through hard things sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, definitely. Yeah. You know, there's a spectrum for everybody.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. But people who haven't had experiences like that are definitely less likely to be able to thrive in a difficult circumstance. There's no question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I guess hopefully that they are uh rich enough and had enough forethought to get an underground bunker. Uh otherwise they're they're fucked.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean if they've got one of those, I'm coming for that bunker anyways.

SPEAKER_02:

So they're at least a paint room.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Well the the bunkers that I I mean uh the because my and sorry, spoiler again, in my series, they do make it to a bunker, and that is based on a real bunker that are the real bunkers that you can invest in, and it's really crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

It is absolutely wild. What do you think it is that your readers love the most about your characters?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, honestly, I I don't know for sure, but my guess would be uh the diversity in and their backgrounds and everything, and the fact that they are really fleshed out. I think that's uh something I really w work toward. I like I like watching documentaries about uh anything, psychology, anything like that, to try to understand people and how we're all so different, and and I like to represent people in a really authentic way. Um and uh so I hope that I did that and I think it does resonate with people that the characters are so different because I yeah, I mean, I can't, you know, you pick up a book and all the characters are the same and it's just boring. So I hope that's what it is, but I've never asked anybody for sure. I don't like asking people straight up for feedback because I'm like, I don't want to put them on the spot. So I'm like, if you don't like it, that's fine. I can take criticism, even the most popular book in the world, somebody hates it, that's fine. But I'm not gonna ask them because I don't I don't want to put people on the spot about to make them feel like they have to tell me that they liked it and if they didn't. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Being able to take criticism is like a superpower that not everybody has.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not easy, and uh I've gotten some I don't I don't re read reviews anymore, but when I was new I did. But I've gotten some that really hurt and then some that just made me laugh.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So um I'm my favorite one and I'll never forget. And it was for like the third book in the Broken World series. So I'm like, this person read three of the books, and it would the review was just what a shitty, shitty, shitty series. Wow. That just made me laugh so hard, and I was like, well, at least I made you feel something.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what good art is. It's like you should if you don't even if I hate every single character that tells me it's a good book.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I was just like, okay, that's it just made me laugh. I'll never forget it because it made me laugh so hard. I was just like, all right.

SPEAKER_00:

They just want them to be sure about their opinion. They're like, I'm pretty sure I don't like this, but I'm gonna read the next two books just to be sure.

SPEAKER_01:

That is an untrusty, untrustworthy reviewer because clearly they liked enough to keep reading. Uh that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I wish I could have responded, like, well, thanks for your money. Oh no. You just did.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Not that that person's gonna be listening to this, probably.

SPEAKER_00:

They are listening. They are, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks for money. I think the review that the reviews, and I've gotten uh multiple of these that have bothered me the most is for Broken World. And it drives me crazy because and oh my god, I'm so gonna blank on the little girl's name in the book because it's been so long. Emily. The little girl in the book Emily. When Vivian is having flashbacks of her as a baby, she has blue eyes. And then when she sees her in real life as a four-year-old, she has brown eyes. And so I got so many reviews telling me that um I needed a better editor because my baby, because the girl's eyes changed, and I was like, oh, you just need to go to science class because Caucasian babies are born with blue eyes and typically change by six months of age. I didn't know that. You didn't? No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02:

I wonder if that's a gender thing a little bit too.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, maybe, but yeah, it was like Caucasian babies are almost 99%. I mean, I don't know the percentage, but I know a couple people who had kids who actually are born with brown eyes, and that's really rare. That's really rare. But Caucasian babies are born with blue eyes and they change. My kids all had blue eyes until they were about two, which is really rare. Usually by six months of age, you can they have changed. So yeah, I thought I was gonna have blue eye kids with each one of my kids, and I have zero blue-eyed kids. That's bad. But yeah, it was about it was about two before they their eyes changed color.

SPEAKER_01:

Genetics are so weird, and I'm gonna resist the urge to go on a rant about like environmental factors for eye colors because this is something I've personally nerded out about. But oh, interesting. Yeah, you're involved. That's all I'll say. People can look it up if they're if they want to go down that rabbit hole like I did many.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I'll look it up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um people are silly, the things that they point out.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's if you can't take criticism, uh don't write a book because even if you don't read the reviews, you still get emails. You get emails?

SPEAKER_01:

People feel strong enough that they're going to email you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't happen all often, but it is happened. And comments on social media, I mean, so it is what it is. I just, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Those are the folks that in the zombie apocalypse are gonna be real annoying slash maybe total assholes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. So uh and I just, you know, write their names down and then I'm like, well, guess if I'm killing off on my next book.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever done that? Yes. I love that. I love that. That is such a great way to process something.

SPEAKER_02:

I have a I have a lot of villains who are named after uh people I don't care for in real life, or um one villain I will not name. Um my uh I have a neighbor. I guess I can name because I'm gonna tell the story. I have a neighbor who lives who lives next door to me now now, who used to live across the street from me and sorry. Cheated on his uh wife with his wife's best friend. And so what so when they got the divorce, I told my friend that I would name the next villain after her ex husband.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, so that is the best thing ever.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so and I was like I'll make sure if he dies a horrible death.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a wonderful gift to give somebody to even. Did you read it?

SPEAKER_01:

Was she excited to read the debate?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't think she's read any, um, but she was just like, oh, that's great. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So uh that's kind of brilliant. We have a neighbor that we don't love, Dan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah. I mean, I I have a few names. Um. Well, one of them was the name that that you gave me that I don't know them personally, but I found them to be a really wild character.

SPEAKER_01:

I forget who this is.

SPEAKER_00:

I won't say who it is, but they're talking about a senator.

SPEAKER_01:

You can we'll have to tell Kate after too, because I feel like it's only fair.

SPEAKER_00:

They're named after a senator and they're not great.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, oh. Oh, oh, okay.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

If you have time, I'll tell you the story after. Uh okay. It's it's pretty wild. Yeah. Dan, cut that part out. Yeah. Or don't let the listeners be jealous. Are all of your zombie stories set in the same like universe?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So I originally wrote the Broken World series, and when I finished it, I was just like, I mean, I love writing zombie stuff, but it does get repetitive because how many times can you write the same a scene of somebody getting killed by a zombie? Like I would imagine it's like writing erotic fiction, like how many sex stories can I sex scenes can I write today? So um repetitive. So when I finished, I was like, I had almost just kind of wrapped it up where it was not going to go anywhere else. But I was like, I'll leave it open because give it some time. I might, you know, after writing a couple other things, cleanse my palate, then I might want to get back to it. And so I did, and I finished out that series, and then I just was like, oh, I want to get back to the zombie apocalypse stuff. And I was like, well, I can't create a whole new apocalypse because I already created my world, and it would be weird to contradict that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I was like, well, I'll just write more in the same world, just in a different part of the country. And um, and so like that's I wrote the um far series, and even so in Broken World, my characters are traveling across the country, but they're heading west, and in the far series, they're traveling across the country heading east, and so they run into each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Love that.

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah, so and that's been really fun to like have different characters pop up in the world because my series, the all of the world that I've created, it spans at this point hundreds of years. So yeah, so I have um the the Broken World series, and then I wrote um the Oklahoma Wasteland series. We had just moved away from Oklahoma, and I thought that would be a really cool place to set an apocalypse because you have to deal with the horrible heat, tornadoes, ice storms in the winter, just you know, all kinds of crazy stuff. And I also knew that um I had created in the Broken World series the where the shelter is, it was an Atlas missile silo. And there are a bunch in Oklahoma, and I'm really disappointed I was never able to do it because um, like I said, my husband is a C-17 pilot, and he knew somebody there who was a sim instructor on the base who had bought one of them, one of the Atlas missile silos, to to do something with I don't know if he ever, and I was like, I want to tour it, I want to tour it, and I never got around to doing it, and I really wish I had. So I knew there was one really close to where we lived in Eltis, Oklahoma. So I was like, oh, that would be a really cool thing uh to assume that there was another shelter there and I have another community there. Um and then I wrote the FAR series, and oh, I can't even remember what else.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you brought 65 books, it's okay. Uh well you've got the twisted series.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, okay, yeah. The twisted series was after Broken World, yes, and that like takes place a little bit down the road, and I'm not gonna spoil that. That was really fun to write, like to um to really create who Angus becomes. Um and and it was like I said earlier, he's a fan favorite, and I originally intended to kill him off. And then I was like, no, I just love how antagonistic he I don't plot, so I just write and like the characters the characters do their things. So I was like, he's just so I love what he adds. So I I'm like I just got rid of the idea of killing him off. And then I'm not going to spoil Twisted World for people, check it out, but uh I just love what Angus became, and then it got to the point where I had created so many books in that world and had built Angus up so much that I had to write the book just about Angus. And writing it, I was really thinking, I I don't know, I'm assuming you've seen Logan about Wolverine's. I actually have.

SPEAKER_00:

But I should.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yes. I've wanted to assignment tonight.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. I'm gonna watch it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it's amazing. Um, yeah, it's so good. But I was like, oh, so Angus is kind of like a historian. I just like Logan really, really inspires me that movie because it is wow, so dark and emotional. And that's what I really, really wanted. And I I love that book.

SPEAKER_01:

So Yeah, I think it's uh Angus is a testament to like how important a character's development is for people to continue to want to read something and to feel invested. Um, thank you for not killing him, but also um I am curious if there's somebody that you did kill that you regret or that you've gotten a lot of flack for.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't regret killing anybody that I killed, but I've gotten a few. I feel like we could clip just that clip. I've gotten a lot of um negative reviews, and uh sorry if you ha if whoever's listening, if you haven't read it, spoiler here.

SPEAKER_01:

Cover yours. Cover yours for two minutes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. For broken world for killing Emily. Um people have been furious at me. Even my grandma was like, why did you have to kill the little girl? Um, but I was like, she was a catalyst for Vivian leaving her safety zone and going and and for the group meeting. But it got to the point, and I had and I did not intend to kill her. It was I didn't start off that way, but I was just like, so I write first person point of view, and so Vivian's my main character, and if she's like tied down, I'm not saying that in a bad way, I have four kids. I don't think Mar, um I don't think motherhood is tying you down, but it's a book. If she's has to stay back every single time anything is happening because she has a kid, it's really gonna limit what I'm writing about the story. But I also thought it just was like and also again, this sounds horrible. Emily wasn't an important character, she was a catalyst for moving the plot forward, and it was also important, I think, too, to show the emotional side of a lot of the characters.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So um yeah, so she wasn't I know it sounds horrible. That little girl wasn't an important character, but that was she was she was the part of the plot, and I I got some real hate from a c I one person in particular was I mean, she was trashing me on in um a couple zombie uh Facebook groups for a while because she was so mad at me, and I was like, you know, she's not a real person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Also, it's not an unprecedented move. Like, yeah, if you've read zombie fiction, you've read a lot of death.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I said, you know, I tried to explain it to her when she first confronted me about it. She did, and I was like, Well, you know, she was like, Vivian is such a mom, bad mom, and blah blah blah. And I would never leave my kids. And I was like, well, first of all, she was a mom, but she wasn't a mom. She was a kid. I mean, she uh she was I think she's 20 years old in the first yeah, she's 20 years old in the first book. That's still a kid. Yeah, yeah. And and she did what she thought was best. Yeah, she made mistakes just like people, and uh that happens. And sometimes they're horrible mistakes, sometimes they're small mistakes. So that's just life. That's reality.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And if you're uh if you're not making people mad, then maybe you're you're not doing something right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I read so many books where a character died and I was furious, but I'm like, well, that's better than books that I've read where everybody lives and there's no pain, because I'm like, this doesn't feel real. Yeah, and I'm mad that the person died, but I'm not mad at the author. I think that's one thing that certain people can't separate. It's like I can be mad that this person died, but I'm not mad at the author. I'm just mad that the story didn't go my way, and also neither does life. And if you want everything to be happily ever after, then don't read apocalyptic fiction.

SPEAKER_00:

It is a zombie book. Like things happen. Like it's not it's not like your character was like, I'm tired of this child, please kill it. We're not reading My Little Ponies, okay?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I I can't imagine like reading apocalyptic fiction and then being mad that people die.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Like feel the feelings. That's part of why we read it, I think, right? Like it's like a way of processing your own stuff, but through a fictional lens. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm feel the feelings, but not the author.

SPEAKER_02:

And I might be I'm not I know that other people are different. Um, but when I read or watch something, I want to feel everything. I want to laugh, I want to cry, I want to be angry, I want to be s sad, like everything. Um, I think that's good, a good story because that's how life is. Yeah. Um, so I know I'm gonna throw my best friend under the bus again, but she she just uh we we uh we are such good friends, but we do not like the same things at all. It's hilarious. When I like recommend something, she's like, oh, I don't like that. It makes me, you know, like sad or like she only wants to watch happy things. Yeah, she doesn't like anything that makes her tense or sad or anything. And that's fine, you know, that's for her. But for me, I'm like, I think it's a good story if I cry and then later I'm laughing, and and uh that that's good writing to me. So I'm I know you guys watched it because um I listened to your episode of The Last of Us, the episode with um why can I not think of his name right now? Uh Ron Swanson.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I can't think Bill? Why Frank or Bill?

SPEAKER_01:

I always get them confused which one's Bill and which one's Frank.

SPEAKER_02:

But I know, but that episode was the best. I was like, I think this is my favorite episode of any show ever, because it made you feel everything.

SPEAKER_01:

It was so beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And so like that's what good writing is.

SPEAKER_01:

That's my gateway episode. Like, if I'm like, you don't like zombies, fine, but let me show you that it's so much more. Like, just you can watch that one episode and not see anything else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I watched it and I just cried the whole time, and then I immediately watched it again. And my husband was on a trip. When he came home, I was like, You have to watch this with me right now. It is amazing, amazing. And I know people, some people criticize and were like, oh, it didn't really have anything to do with the story. And I'm like, Well, it did because they were on their way there, and it would have been weird if they were just, oh, we found two dead people. Um but also sometimes when like I mean, have you ever read a Stephen King books? He goes on tangents and just tells a whole different story right in the middle of the story, and that's good writing. You're building characters, you're building a whole world, it's not just that one tiny thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It was it was a side quest. And we love side quests.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I think the only the only way that you look at episode three of season one of The Last of Us and you're like, this was unnecessary, is if you just didn't like the story.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which I don't even want to say that that might say about you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, oh yes. I heard some of that too. Like, yeah, but uh yeah, I heard that from people and they're like, well, I'm not homophobic, but and I'm like, Yeah, it's the same as when I was a kid, and everybody around me was like, Well, I'm not racist, but like, oh, if you have to say that you're racist, sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I learned that one real quick when I moved to Georgia, which is where I lived first in the United States.

SPEAKER_02:

And Oh, bless your heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I was like, why do all these white people keep starting sentence with I'm not racist, but and then the next thing is really horrifying. Yeah. It was a lesson. But I think that's actually like a great segue to get into this. We've talked a little bit already about how this process has helped you as a human being grow um and see the people in the world differently. But I'm curious if there was um a specific character or an arc that was really pivotal for you in your own personal shift of how you see the world.

SPEAKER_02:

Not really. Um it was really slow. I think that I had been deconstructing everything for a really long time and just hadn't really I hadn't really acknowledged it. And I didn't even really know what that term was. Um but when I started writing, I was immediately like, well, okay, well, go back. My very first book that I didn't publish until 2019, and it's a dystopian. It's called Be on the Wall.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, and I it was my first one. It was the first draft was garbage. Uh I mean, the first book, uh sorry, Dan. I hope yours isn't, but typically the first book is garbage. I'm trying to. No, you're taking a you're taking your time. I'm sure it'll be good. I wrote I write very, very fast. So it was and I I also was very, very young still. Um even being, I think I was 32. Even being 32, I was very young because uh of how I was raised. Um so I wrote it, and after I wrote it, I realized every single character in my book is white. And that was really like disturbing to me to realize and really eye-opening. It worked out when I eventually published it because uh, like I said, it's a dystopian and there are different sections of the world. It was inspired by the Hunger Games, just like everything was at that time. Um, and I was like, okay, well, it works out because I'll just say that this this controlling government segregated everybody. Um, and it actually helped my character once she left to grow because she started meeting other people different than her. Yeah. So, but at the time I was like, oh my god, all of my characters are white. So when I started writing my zombie stuff, I was like, okay, I'm gonna make a concentrated effort to make sure that I add people who are different than me. Um and so doing that really like it was also scary because then I have my have my first gay character and I know that my family's gonna read it, and not that I cared, but when you're so indoctrinated, there's that anxiety that comes with it. Um and so I didn't hesitate to do it. I didn't say like ever think I shouldn't do it, but it was really, really like that anxiety is so bad.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like Thanksgiving's gonna be rough this year.

SPEAKER_02:

Because they all read my book and they feel attacked. Oh yeah. I had already gotten with the first book I wrote, which was dystopian, that my mom had already given me shit about it because she was like, they're having sex and they're not married. And I was like, And I was like, Mom, first of all, it's a dystopian world, they don't have the same values that you have. And also, guess what? People have sex.

SPEAKER_03:

That's no surprise.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm shocked. So I knew that there was going to be friction, and fortunately, uh, it never came about with my mom, not to my face. She always likes to say things behind my back, but so not to my face. But so with each book, I just tried to add um more and more people who are different than me. I've tried to be more inclusive, and also uh as just being on social media and people talking about um, yeah, it gets so amazing when I pick up a book, like minorities or even people who have um different like people who are deaf or whatever. It's so great when I pick up a book and I see somebody in the book who's who represents me because it's so rare. And so I was like, oh, well, yeah, that's I never thought about that because I'm a straight white Christian person in this country and everybody represents me. So so I tried really hard. I've tried really hard to just add different characters in there. I've had I loved writing one of the books in uh the broken world series is um Silent World, and the one of the main characters is Death. And that was really enjoyably enjoyable to write because I had to put myself in somebody's shoes who were so different than me and figure out how they could survive and what they could do to keep themselves safe in a world where they couldn't hear anything. And that was, yeah, it was really it was it was so fun to write, and also it's really eye-opening to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And so it's slowly and just slowly we're adding more and more characters, and and it just got to a point where I was also just like, I'm over, I've done it enough that I don't have to feel anxiety about it anymore. And also it's about being inclusive and standing up for what I believe in. And I think the my far series, I added my first trans character, and I really did it just because I was being passive aggressive toward my mom because she just recent she had just recently spoken to my kids about um my best friend's trans daughter over going over my head, and uh I was so pissed that I was just like, well, and then 180.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. You went from being having anxiety about it to like now this is how you're gonna eventually know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I put the character in just to be passive aggressive, and then it ended up playing a really big plot point at one point. So the fact that I the trans character. So it was really but um yeah, and now I even forget what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01:

Now this is amazing. Like just hearing the evolution um and your own self-looked recognition. I mean, the reality is that when we first started this, and we've said this so many times on this show, so we won't won't belabor the point. But when we first started this, we thought we were like, it's gonna be hard to find authors or stories that do not center white men. Um and Kate, your stories were some of the first where we're like, wait, it's a woman author, there's diverse characters. Um, and so the fact that you had that moment of self-recognition is like all we can ask of anybody is that you realize something new and then you grow. Because there's plenty of there's a never ending supply of books where you're like, wait a second, why is everybody in New York City white? Like this literally makes no sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I and I think even from the very first time I started writing um apocalyptic and dystopian fiction, and I Always like, oh, I'm always gonna have female characters because I write first person point of view, and I'm a woman and I understand. But I think that it was more now, as I'm looking back, it was more about like taking back power that was that I never got to have because growing up in evangelical Christianity, um, as a woman, I'm not supposed to have power. I mean, my mom just literally had one of the reasons we're going no contact is that um had my husband come over and was talking about how he was supposed to be the spiritual leader in our house. And as if I I'm like, does she not know me at all? Like as if I'm going to take like direction from somebody that's so stupid. So I think it was me like you know, trying to deconstruct from all that from the very, very beginning and not even realizing it. Um because I hate that uh I this just as an as an example, like The Princess Bride is a movie that I love for my youth. It's so great. And then I watched it as an adult and I'm like, why the fuck won't Buttercup get off of her ass and help Wesley? Like, what the hell is happening? She's just like, Wesley, help me, Wesley, help me. And I'm like, I wouldn't just sit there, get up. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's another thing that I love about the zombie apocalypse, especially uh at least like modern rend renditions of it, is that like nobody nobody like sits aside when it's the zombie apocalypse. Like everybody's got a job to do, and like early seasons of The Walking Dead had a lot more gendered roles. Um, but later on you definitely see like, you know, if if there's zombies there, you you gotta pick something up and whack them over the head with it, or else you you're gonna get eaten. Yeah, Daryl Daryl can't save everyone. No, yeah, Carol's an annoying for that reason.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I actually love that the first two few seasons of The Walking Dead for that reason, because I think it's totally normal that they're still in denial that society has collapsed and that things have changed. And so it's like a comfort to them to continue continue those gender roles um because they're just trying to cling to the norm. And then, yeah, Carol's amazing. And then to when they get to a point where they're like, okay, this isn't working, and we all have to like be badass or we're gonna die.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And they also really challenged that like I remember the moment when they were all washing clothes, like it was yes, like I washed it yesterday, because yes, they were performing their role, but they were saying, like, wait a second, something's not right here. And that, I don't know about you, Kate, but like I had those moments of feelings of unfairness from the age of like, I don't know, eight, it started to show up for me. Um, and I think in an apocalypse scenario, where you're like, wait a second, that's even more um overt.

SPEAKER_02:

I did not, uh, but I again I grew up in a very, very patriarchal home with um my dad being um he was in charge, and my mom was not allowed to make decisions. Um so and I'm a I'm a pleaser. So I just did my thing and got through it. And I think my being able to leave and go to college, and even though I went to a Christian college, which I would not recommend for anybody, um, was my first like, oh, I can get out there and I can make my own decisions. And I and so yeah, I did not have that when I was young. It was just normal to me because everybody I knew believed the same things, thought the same things, men were supposed to be in charge, women were supposed to be submissive. And but I remember in college there were a couple of more than one guy who was um interested in me, and then having a conversation with them. Like the one specifically that I remember is like really tall, blonde Australian guy. So, you know, like he's Australian, so automatically good looking guy.

SPEAKER_00:

That's an accent.

SPEAKER_02:

Sad accent, yeah. But having the conversation with him, and he literally wanted a submissive person. And I was still really young and couldn't hadn't even begun that, but I was just like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna be the type of person who's just gonna do what they're told. And that was the end. He was not interested in me anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

So that happened more than once, and I was like, okay, I'm not, I guess I'm not dating at the school. Yeah, some part of you knew. Yeah, no, I totally replicated being successful. I mean, it was not outrightly said to me, but my first couple of relationships, specifically my very first one, I um think back and I'm like, wow, I really just contorted myself to do the things that I thought I was supposed to do. Um, and a lot of your stories, I think, have that, like, not just the zombies stories, just give a shout-out to some of the others where it's like very much about that experience of um women pushing back in circumstances that are deeply oppressive. And I really love those as well. So I just want to give them a slight moment to shine if there's one you want to call out that you're really proud of or that you think people should take a look at.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, um, The Golden Cage is I think it's probably my best book. Um it took me, I start, and this is one of the ones that I actually did plot a little bit, but just because the society is so complex. Um, but it and it took me a few years of making notes and plotting and trying to figure out how it would all work out or before I could start writing it. Um, and it is a um post-apocalyptic society where women from the age of five are ranked by their looks and trained for their role in the society based on their looks. Um, and of course, you know, the number ones are the beautiful ones, and they have this life of luxury and ease, and the number threes are the less attractive, and they are work in servitude. And surprise, uh, the number ones aren't actually getting a life of ease. So um I it's a really heavy story, um, but it is I think it's my best book, and I I love the society and the characters and their journeys, and they are not easy to read, and they uh there's some really dark and oppressive stuff, but I think that's humanity is especially what certain men, especially happening right now in our country, really want for women. And so that's yeah, that that's I think my favorite. But um the one that has been the bestseller that carried me through the year basically because I did not write this past year because I was really depressed. Um, and and so I'm definitely getting back into it. I'm feeling much better getting back into it in uh January. I'm already thinking of what I'm gonna write. But uh the Fertile Ones is uh about reproductive rights. Um I that was a really, really tough thing for me growing up a conservative, and especially my mom, like I said, uh I had already I think I already said that stressful depression. She also had an abortion when she was young and it was vilified by the church, and and so that's was a huge thing in my upbringing. And so as I was adjusting my views on the world, the issue of abortion was really, really hard to grapple with because of how I was raised and how uh what the huge impact it had on my childhood. And so writing that book was really just therapy for me. I didn't expect it to even do well. And then it has and it it carried me through the year. Um, Amazon has chosen it multiple times uh to to to promote it and uh it has done it it was my bestseller the whole year. And so I'm I'm shocked, but I also am not shocked because of what's happening in our country right now. But it was just it was just me trying to come to terms with all of those things and my thoughts and feelings on the issues, and and I happen to put it in a book that's almost 200,000 words long.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So it's a it's a thick read with two C's.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, it is, it is. Uh and I mean I know a lot of people have been like, oh, this is just like the Handmaid's Tale. I mean, it's not it's a dystopian book that's uh like but I have literally have credited like Margaret Atwood and Handmaid's Tale with some of the inspiration because obviously how could you not be inspired by that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But that's also like saying that Margaret Atwood is the only one who can write about those things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. So and it and it's fine. You don't have to like it, I don't care. It's it's what's for me. I didn't I'm just other people liked it too. It's done really well, it has great reviews, so but I wrote it for me. I don't I don't write, I guess uh that's one thing that um I write multiple genres, and I know that's kind of frowned upon if you're like being traditionally published, because like that's why so many people have um multiple names they write under. If they want to write like science fiction, they write under this name. If they want to write mystery, they write under different under a different name. And I'm like, that's too much work. I'm just putting under the same name. I'm writing it, I write for me. I don't like write for any readers. And like it's great that you read my books. I hope you do. I wish more people would because I love them and I work really hard on them. But it it's really for me, and I think that's what makes a good writer is that not writing for anybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. If you're trying to write for what you think like the majority want, it's gonna be so bland. There's a reason why what you wrote and what you write resonates so deeply, and I think that's exactly the reason because there's lots of people, like we're all unique, but we're also there's a lot of things that we have uh hold similarly, and so I'm sure people see themselves in your books all the time.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I hope so. I hope so. I yeah, I I love doing it. I've really, really missed it this year, and I'm hoping to get back to next year where I'm writing. It used to be that I would write like 12,000 words a day. Wow. Sometimes and I mean, so the fact that I have written almost nothing recently other than my entire like really long letter to my mom about how why we're going no contacts. Um that is how many words it's a huge labor.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's I don't know how many words that is, but it's 12 pages.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So yeah. So I'd say 2,500 or more.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So but I've been working, I've been working on it for months. So uh yeah, now that that's done, I feel like that was something that I needed to tackle before I could like get back into writing daily. And now we're in the holidays, so I bet it's a great line. But um I uh the only other person who's read it is my best friend, and she was like, Oh my god, you should publish this. And I was like, I I didn't cite my sources, so I'm not gonna do that. Um because yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe that one's just for you.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I I was like, I I didn't cite all the places I got the information, and I'm not going back and looking it back up. So yeah. You know, I'm kind of wanna be like that that girl at OU who wrote a paper and got a zero and thinks that she should have gotten a good grade, even though she cited no sources.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, the artist who doesn't want to draw hands again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I'm uh I'm glad that you brought up um how difficult it's been uh to write lately because I I think I think a lot of our uh a lot of writers are in the same boat. We've heard from a lot of people that are close to us that like they're having trouble, like some people are powering through. I'm doing my best. Um there was definitely a time uh where like the doom and gloom had overpowered my creative abilities. Um so what's it like for you to write about a broken world when you're already living in one?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's one of the reasons I could not do much this year because I I was the were the series I was working on, I had some really shitty people, and it just was too close to home. Um, I still need to finish that. I I think I have one more book to put out in that, and then I can finish it. But so I considered going back to zombies and just trying to write a book that my characters were just fighting the zombies in that instance and they didn't run into bad people. But it's it's so hard because any kind of apocalyptic scenario, you're running into bad people, and there's just too much bad happening right now that it just makes it so depressing. So I that's why I haven't been able to write this year. Um, because I want to, when I'm writing something, I want to um represent people how they are, and that means we're gonna run into horrible people. And I'm I feel like I'm too surrounded by horrible people right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I don't have the answer to that because I haven't been able to do it. But um, like I said, at therapy and and it starts some antidepressants this year, so I'm feeling much better after the holidays are over. Um, I'm gonna get back and I and I wanna start getting back to my normal thing where I'm writing regularly.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I'm I'm very, very lucky that I was able to take most of the year off. I'm lucky that I have um enough books that it didn't affect me that much income-wise.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I'm still catching up. Like I've got a long way to go.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I'm I'm really lucky that my husband is very, very supportive and that he has a good job and and we could do it. But yeah, I gotta get back next year or cut way down on how much money I'm spending. Maybe I don't want to do because I like to travel.

SPEAKER_01:

So there you go. Yeah, and that's also inspiration. But I think sometimes, you know, it sounds like you've been going through a composting period. And so I think it'll be really interesting to hear what what grows out of this year.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I think that was the other thing that um with everything going on, I was like, I want to write something important and impactful. Um, not that zombie fiction can't be, and not that it can't have a space, but uh I feel like uh I just like with my dystopian stuff, I feel like I write more uh relevant stuff and but it doesn't sell as well. I wish it did.

SPEAKER_01:

Um but everybody go buy Kate Elmaray's books.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I like being able to tackle um inequality and and things like that in the dystopian stuff, it's it's really it it makes it I think it gives me peace where I feel like I'm like doing my part to fight because that's been with everything that's going on, I want to fight, but I live in a tiny town Ohio and there's not a lot of opportunity to go out and do things. So I'm like, I want to write something impactful and something that really points out the hypocrisy of people and how bad things are right now.

SPEAKER_00:

And so that can be tough in itself because I mean that's I I've I've said it a lot, but it's like every time I sit down to write, like I I check the headlines the next day, and I'm like, stop stealing my ideas.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh god. It is I I started writing uh a dystopian, which um is a kind of a theor a theocracy that has taken over the US. Um and I have like an outline for it and everything, but I just got too depressed that I had to stop it. But I think that's something I'm gonna strive to finish slowly. I don't I think it's gonna be so heavy that I can't do it all at once. But um then I'll probably I want to finish up the series that I have and then go back to some zombie stuff because I had never thought that zombie would be like, hey, this is a lighter thing. Let's like write about the zombie apocalypse. But here we are.

SPEAKER_00:

Something to take the load off, like escape from your daily life and just bring on the zombies. Think about reanimated rotting corpses trying to eat your face. What do they smell like? How am I gonna describe that today? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So yeah, so I think I'm gonna try to uh I I'm yeah, I'm gonna mix it up and start write some stuff, and if it gets too heavy, move on to a zombie thing and and then go back. So and that's what I did when I wrote The Golden Cage, because it is a really, really heavy book that I wrote a little bit, and then I I stopped and wrote some zombie stuff, and then I went back and because it was a lot. It's yeah, it's a lot. But even even my MAGA mother-in-law, which you can tell that she doesn't I I mean, I love my mother-in-law, she's an amazing person. She does not know what she's doing. Uh and she's very supportive of my son, yeah. So uh, but even she said that it is my best book.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, uh she you can tell she reads all of my books, all of my dystopian books, all about like fighting oppressive governments, and you can tell that she didn't actually absorb any of it because she's MAGAT.

SPEAKER_00:

So I find that to be s kind of interesting sometimes. Like there's I I kind of have uh two classifications for that side of the aisle where it's like there's people who genuinely are awful and have really awful opinions. And then there's some people that just don't know anything.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And um and like I think this might be the case where it's like, you know, maybe that maybe she reads your books and she's like, I am for everything in this book, and I totally agree. And I love that our president is helping us achieve these goals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have MAGA people posting on social media right now talking about how wicked is uh conservative and and like how it's like it's supporting the conservative movement in America. And we're like, no.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

No. Was the Hunger Games also doing that?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, if we take if you look at the wrong parts of it, it's like, yeah, we should. Yeah, this movie is all about uh a society that segregated itself and has found a way to exploit people based on their geographic location, what uh what things they have access to. And I'm all for that. I think that's uh it's a really really correct story about how good um class warfare is.

SPEAKER_01:

This is why teaching critical thinking is so important, because you can see really great media and not see it. Like my who I love, my brother. He would be MAGA if he was American, um, even though he would never admit it, because Canadians have a big beef with Trump for obvious tariff reasons. Yeah, he's a horrible person. Yeah. Oh no, just the tariffs for my brother. Um we're not buying the lumber and they they're mad about it. Yeah, he watched the Squid Games and he was just like, Yeah, that's a great, that's a great show. And I was like, Well, what did you take away from it? He was like, It is just really scary. And I was like, But it was it's it's critiquing capitalism, Jesse. Oh yeah, leave it out, name. Uh that's what it is. And he he just for whatever reason, it's flying over the head.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we need to have uh more classes things for kids to learn critical critical thing critical thing critical thinking skills. And that's one thing uh growing up like conservative everything. We didn't you don't you're not taught critical thinking skills because that would lead to questions.

SPEAKER_01:

That's basically a heathen. You can't have questions.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So my I was with my in-laws and every and even my husband and and and me um when years ago, like we couldn't you we had to vote Republican because Democrats are evil. You're that's indoctrination. That's what we were literally told that Democrats are evil, and um so and that's one another thing that you have to work through. And um so it's finding like an online community where people, you know, I'm like, oh my god, I'm not the only one going through this, like the new evangelicals and um April of Joy and uh Brian Rekker is a former evangelical pastor. I just finished his book, Hellbend, where he deconstructs uh the idea of hell because it's not real. And um Monty Maider is amazing. Um she has a huge following and she's so smart in former evangelical, like a Liberty University of all places, and uh now is like you know, fighting to expose Christian nationalism and everything. And and so like that finding that online helped so much to realize I'm not alone and because I felt so alone, so alone. Yeah, and because everybody I know, everybody from my high school and college, I have like a handful of friends who have also deconstructed, but that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's rare.

SPEAKER_02:

I had to delete my personal Facebook page. Well, I didn't delete it because I want to save the memory, so I just unfriended everybody because I got so sick of people that I went to my Christian college with, telling and posting things about how if you're a Christian, you have to vote for Trump. And I was like, that man is horrible.

SPEAKER_01:

That does not make any sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Horrible. Yeah, horrible human being.

SPEAKER_01:

I think um you you talked just a moment ago about the importance of that online community and finding people who have been through what you've been through and are deconstructing it, which by the way, the that hell-bent book sounds amazing, and I want to read it now. That's really good. Um, and it makes me think about the ways one of the things, first things that I noticed about you before I ever read anything of yours, because Dan told me about him going through your series, uh, just on the internet, was that you are vocally an ally for the LGBTQ plus community. And as someone who's a part of that, like just that small thing, Kate, made me feel safe with you, even not knowing you personally. And so in your own way, I'm sure that's just one example that's for me specifically. I think you've been doing what you just described as helping people feel more connected and seeing themselves in your books. And I'm I know that you've you you've been very transparent on the fact that you have a gay son and that you support him and his rights deeply. I'm curious what it's like to raise your son in this time and to to write about um point of views coming from the LGBTQ community when those people are so under attack right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um, well, my son, he's 21. He didn't come out until no, I don't remember. I think it's been three years. Um three years ago. Um before that, he was very introverted, um, closed off. I like it. So yeah. So when he came out and told us, uh it I mean, literally within 24 hours, his personal language changed. You could tell like a weight was lifted off of him. And it's like, oh my god, I have my son back. Um, but years and years, years before that, um my husband and I had already talked it. Like I said, growing up super conservative, we told like being gay is wrong, it's the sin, blah, blah, blah. Um, so but we had already talked. Um, and it was just based on our lives, the things we'd seen, the things we'd read, and it's like just like experience, and we had already talked, like, just you know, okay, so we have four kids. If this something happens and one of our kids is gay or trans, like how like how are we gonna handle it? And I think we both kind of came to this decision separately. And then when we finally had the conversation together, we was like really hesitant, like, okay, hopefully this person like hopefully we agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you hold on to the volcano, because yeah, I know so many people who grew up in the evangelical world and who deconstructed who their spouse did not agree, and then it ends up you end up in divorce. And so, yeah, so I mean, obviously, like I'm gonna support my kids. So um, we talked about it, and thankfully we both agreed. And I was just like, Well, our kids are the most important thing, we're gonna love them no matter what. We also don't think it's a choice, we don't think like it's wrong, and so it was we were basically like, well, it was more about like, oh, how are we gonna approach this with family? And it was uh that we were like, Well, if they can't handle it, we can cut them out because our kids are more important. So, um, so we had already come to that decision. So when our son told us, we were just like, Okay, well, you know, it doesn't matter to us. Like, we'd already been through this with um our kids have all of our kids have gay friends or trans friends. My best friend has a trans daughter, and we watched that whole thing happen and seen like the the situation and and everything they've gone through and how they're being they've been villainized. And I know my son knew that we were gonna be supportive, and I know that he waited. One of the reasons he waited is and um because of grandparents and dad, especially my dad. I know my dad and my son were close, and my dad would not have been okay. And so um um it was about a year after my dad died that my son came out to us. So uh to go back to writing about it and dealing with it in this time period, it is it's terrifying, and that's definitely been part of my depression this year is just like I'm I've finally got my son back where I feel like he's so much more open, he'll sit and with us and hang out with us and talk to us, whereas before he was just always hiding his room and now like he's being vilified by people who like probably never even met a gay person. So uh or they have and they just don't know it because they definitely have.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Or they have unbrinder.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. That too. Yeah, yeah. So it's it's been yeah, it's been really it's it's so difficult. Um been very fortunate that even though we have a lot of a conservative family, but everybody's been pretty supportive except for my mom, which was to be expected.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And that is some reason we're one of the reasons we're going out that we're I'm going no contact. And uh but my son's happy he has a boyfriend, they've been together for a few years now, but he's getting ready to move out and move in with his boyfriend.

SPEAKER_03:

And that's really nice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So you know, I'm I just I am scared every single day um seeing the trajectory of this country and how I know it at this point people are saying it so much it almost sounds like a cliche, but it's not, um, how it's going in the same direction as what the Nazi Party did in Germany, and they'll find one group after another after another, and where it's gonna go. But we're I'm gonna keep fighting. I'm not gonna stay silent. Um my I yeah, and my sister-in-law, and so things were going on. She's like, Oh, maybe you should stop protesting, and I was like, No, I will die at a concentration camp before I stop fighting for my kids. Because not only do I have a gay son, I have two teenage daughters, and one's in college, and they just the educate department of education just literally listed all of these fields as not professional just to target women.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And she's smarter than most of the people who are in the Trump cabinet.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd much rather have her running the country, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I'm gonna take a guess that she's smarter than all of them combined.

SPEAKER_02:

Probably. Yeah. I mean, she had a 4.4 GPA and graduated 10th in her quest, and she had a 32 on her ACT, she got a 36 in math, perfect score. Wow. So yeah, yeah. But she's planning on going into uh developmental psychology so to teach to learn like really, really work with um maybe like autistic kids and stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

That's powerful. I love this human being. Thank you for being such a like an amazing advocate for your kids. But for everybody's kids, you know, like that's the thing. And I appreciate you that you are willing to speak up so vocally. I know that there are risks involved always, but I'm with you in that the more of us who say it, the safer we all are. Um but it just I I just want you to know that like even you know, we didn't meet till today, but your posts have sometimes been like the thing that makes me feel better about the world. And you're like, hey, I stand with my son. So thank you. Yeah, those things matter. Yeah, really do.

SPEAKER_02:

I I know I felt that way when I see other people post, and that's why I'm like, I need to post that stuff so that other people can feel that too. Because when you know you're not alone and when you know that there's a community, that makes a huge difference, especially right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we're not going down without a fight. I'm sorry. Yeah. I said a very similar thing to my mom where she's like, Can you please come back to Canada? And I was like, Look, bad shit happens sometimes. And if it happens to me because I stood up for something, then that's just what's you know, so I'm sorry, mom.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I will be on the right side of history. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I I haven't been known to back down from a fight before, so I'm not gonna start that now just because it's a little bit scarier.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Exactly. Well, I've got to say this was like a genuine pleasure. I knew it would be a great conversation, but I just want to say thank you for your openness. Um for everything that you do, for the incredible storytelling that you give the world. And we hope we get to have you back again someday. In the meantime, where can people find you and your books if they have yet if they've not yet done that?

SPEAKER_02:

My books are on Amazon and Kindle Unlimited, obviously. Um most of them are are on audiobook, so on Audible. Um I'm not huge on social media right now because it's been uh a year. Um, but I I am I do post on Facebook, but mostly I'm on Instagram um because I find that it's just easier just to look at a picture or a short reel and move on. So Instagram is where I do most things, and I post about my books um and about what's happening in the world and also about my family.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm a big fan. I love your Instagram. I'm all we're also mostly on Instagram.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um Yeah. I try to I try to post stuff about the family too, so it's not all like books and you know, everything that's horrible that's happening in our country.

SPEAKER_01:

But so and if the if folks somebody's new to you and your zombie fiction specifically, would you recommend that they start with the Broken World series or where would you tell them to start?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, Broken World. And if you go to my website, which is just katelmary.com and go to the zombie books, um, there is they're all listed, but also um I have a link for the suggested reading order. Okay. Because they all are you can read the series like separate like in different orders, but if you want to follow in the order that I wrote it and the order that it's in like chronologically, it's not even chronologically because it jumps around, but in the in the order that it's supposed to be written, and I have a suggested reading order.

SPEAKER_00:

Well I'm gonna have to check that out because uh because I've I've jumped around a bit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And you can. I I intentionally wrote them so that they didn't the series, the different series didn't have to be read in that order, but you might run into a character where if you read it in the right order, you would have been like, oh my god, that's that character. Where you know, if you read it out of order, you're like, oh, they ran into some random dude. Who cares?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Get out of here, random dude.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So like why is this why is this scene in here? This is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. Um, this has been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad we finally got to do it. Um I know I've wished we'd done it a year ago, but maybe it's better now because things have changed so much.

SPEAKER_01:

So all things all good things come.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, too. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Things have changed.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. I had no idea how many cool people we'd get to meet when we started this podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, me either. Um I honestly, I just thought it'd be us talking to ourselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Which is also fun. But like we just got to talk with Kate Dell Mary for two hours. What a dream.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Never never in my lawn mowing dreams. Because I listened to KDL Mary when I mowed the lawn. That was that's a reference. That's a callback. Never in my my dreams did I think that we'd have KD Al Mary on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. We talked a lot about hope in this episode, and I think I made it clear that Kate's one of the reasons, and many of you who I follow on the internet, that I feel hope. So thank you everybody for just being you and for standing out. Thanks for joining. Thanks for giving us hope. Thanks for writing really fucked up post-apocalyptic fiction that also strangely gives me hope.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. A world of undead cannibals gives me hope.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, if they can do it, we can do we can. Wait. If they can do it, we can too. Yeah. Thanks everybody for joining the Zombie Book Club. Please go check out Kate L. Mary's books. All of her uh information will be in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And also, like I said at the very beginning, I'm expecting a book report on my desk by the end of the week. All 65 books. Yeah. Otherwise, you're getting kicked out of the club. Yeah. And you're gonna fail. You're gonna fail this semester.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. If uh Kate L. Mary's books have touched you in some way, you can always uh leave us a voicemail and tell us about it at 614-699-0006 up to three minutes, please. You can also leave us a rating or a review. We love those. Yeah, five stars, please. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh you can also sign up for our newsletter that one day I will send out. Yeah. One day. Um but you can also follow us on Instagram at zombie book club podcast. Uh that's where we normally are most of the time. You'll find us there. Um, or you can join the Brain Munchers collective Discord. Oh, the links are in the description. The end is nigh.

SPEAKER_01:

Happy Hanukkah to those who celebrate. Happy Hanukkah. Because I think it's out on the day that this podcast comes out on Sunday, December 14th. So happy Hanukkah for anyone who celebrates. Happy holidays for anybody who celebrates anything else. Happy solstice for those who are going to celebrate the solstice, like Dan and I. Happy Christmas if you do that. Happy Kwanzaa, happy being alive on the planet in 2025.

SPEAKER_00:

Happy Krampus Knocked.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, happy crompus knocked.

SPEAKER_00:

Which was a week or two ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Happy Santa and the Zomb elves. Zomb elves by Greg, who I don't remember their last name because they're just Greg the Writer for me forever.

SPEAKER_00:

Sorry, Greg.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You are Greg the Writer now.

SPEAKER_01:

That's your name. Yeah, go check out their story. And uh yes, now the end is nigh, Dan.

SPEAKER_00:

The end is nigh. Baby bye-bye bye bye bye bye bye. Don't die. Don't die. Don't die. Bye-bye.

Contributor

Dan

Host
Contributor

Leah

Host