Sarah Lyons Fleming - Until the End of the World | Zombie Book Club Ep 121

In this episode we sit down with Sarah Lyons Fleming, the brilliant mind behind the Until the End of the World series (as well as her other series; City and Cascadia), which feels more like a well‑stocked pantry than a barren wasteland. She enthralls us with the gritty logistics of life after the collapse, cozy survival, acorn flour, and how community‑first storytelling can outshine lone‑wolf power fantasies.

Beyond the gore, Sarah shares how she weaves LGBTQIA+, women‑centered, and neurodivergent characters into the fabric of a post‑apocalypse, and reveals just how many cans of beans are hidden under her bed.

Relevant Links

• Sarah's Official website: https://www.sarahlyonsfleming.com/
• Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SarahLyonsFleming/
• Amazon author storefront (for all titles): https://www.amazon.com/stores/Sarah-Lyons-Fleming

Click here to back Ollies 'MAZE 1: Staken; Not Stirred' on kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ollieeatsbrains/maze-1-staken-not-stirred

Help Keep Zombie Book Club alive!!! - https://www.gofundme.com/f/keep-zombie-book-club-alive

Zombie Book Club Links

• Sign up for our Newsletter!!!! --- https://zombiebookclub.io/newsletter/
• Join the Brain Muncher’s Zombie Collective: https://discord.gg/rn3nPDa4CB
• ZBC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zombiebookclubpodcast/
• ZBC Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/710957975263518/
• Zombie Book Club Voicemail: (614) 699-0006‬
• Zombie Book Club Email: ZombieBookClubPodcast@gmail.com
• Our Merchandise Store (Where you can find our Evil Magic Chicken Zombie Shirts): https://zombie-book-club.myspreadshop.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open And Host Intros
• 1:04 Meet Author Sarah Lyons Fleming
• 3:06 Series Order, Spoilers, And Novellas
• 4:56 Author Bio And Prepper Vibes
• 6:48 Icebreakers: Work Week Or Apocalypse
• 9:17 Morality, Neighbors, And Survival Rules
• 11:18 Weapons Talk: Knives Vs War Hammers
• 13:22 Making Gear And Post-Collapse Craft
• 14:52 Food Logistics And The Magic Warehouse
• 16:38 Comfort Media For The End Times
• 19:02 Pop Culture Confusions And Laughs
• 20:50 Rapid Fire: Beans, Flour, And Storage
• 23:49 Prepping Math And Community Ethics
• 26:52 Fish Or Roaches And Bug Phobias
• 29:51 Bug Trauma Stories And Humor
• 32:35 Why Write Zombies: Origins And Themes
• 36:09 Zombies Vs EMP And Narrative Stakes
• 38:43 Beyond Power Fantasies In The Genre
• 41:43 Real Life Logistics: Poop And Pets
• 44:47 Walking Dead, Influence, And Fresh Takes
• 47:41 Worldbuilding Without A Master Plan
• 50:27 Readers, Docs, And Keeping Canon
• 52:39 Character Arcs, Pantsing, And Endings
• 56:07 When Characters Live Or Die
• 59:11 Trauma, Hope, And Reader Letters
• 1:02:55 Representation, Identity, And Resonance
• 1:06:15 Research Rabbit Holes And Realism
• 1:09:43 Acorns, Tannins, And Food Skills
• 1:13:11 Gardening Failures, Pests, And Lessons
• 1:16:39 Details That Break Immersion
• 1:19:51 Survival Slice Of Life Over Big Bads
• 1:23:03 Community Versus Control And Villains
• 1:26:47 Marketing As An Indie Without Social
• 1:29:51 Algorithms, Ads, And Anxiety
• 1:32:47 Early Launch Tactics And Luck

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

Oh fuck, I'm in trouble. I'm Dan, and when I'm not immersing myself in a world I simply describe as Little House in the Prairie, but with zombies, I'm writing a book about a zombie outbreak that starts in New York City, as far as anyone knows. And those in power are using millions of reanimated corpses as a moat to keep anyone from escaping the safe zone so they can exploit the survivor's labor and maintain systems of oppression and keep the wealthy safe from the horrors of the apocalypse. Sounds like regular life.

SPEAKER_03: 0:55

And I think are you sure that's a book in fiction or I do a different pitch every episode.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

Yeah. I'm Leah, and our guest today, whose voice you just heard, is such an incredible storyteller that I very accidentally started with the last book in her four-book series until the end of the world. I was so pulled into the story and the characters that I honestly didn't notice until Dan let me know because I was telling him about where I was in the book. Um the only thing that was maybe a clue that I didn't pick up on is that it took me a few chapters to figure out what a luxer was. Hint for those who may have not who may have not read this guest's work. It's a zombie, guys. Uh so yeah, that's why Dan says read them in order. But I'm saying you could actually pick up the very last book and still have a great time. I was so upset. It was devastated. Look on his face. What book was that? Um All the Stars in the Sky. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:53

Because some people will read the um the novella, um, So Long Lollipops that comes after book one. They read it last when it's really 1.5, but Amazon doesn't let you say a book is 1.5. Really? Um yeah. Really? Yeah. It all has to be they don't. Uh yeah. So um, yeah. And then it was free on Audible for a long time. So people would start with that, and it's just full of spoilers for book one. But a lot of them are like, well, it didn't stop me. I said, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

Well, I always go to the list of books in the series to make sure I'm reading the correct ones in the correct order. I didn't know that existed until this experience. So I'm learning. Uh, we release episodes every Sunday on all platforms. So subscribe. Is that a typo? It actually says subscribe.

SPEAKER_01: 2:43

No, I didn't want to confuse Sarah with our weird subscribing jokes. We're gonna find I'm upset.

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

Today's guest is Sarah Lyons Fleming, the author of multiple series set in the same universe and timeline among different groups of survivors. Uh she's written these are the series that she's written. Uh Until the End of the World. We just mentioned that. There's four books in that series. There's the City series, which has three books, Cascadia, which has four books, for a grand total of eleven books, I believe, if my math is mathing. Um I would say that her novels are a blend of cozy, small town camaraderie and the make do or die ethos of classical frontier tales with the chaotic survivalist thrills of zombie fiction. She populates her stories with characters of very cultural backgrounds, explores power dynamics, and foregrounds marginal voices, even as the dead shuffle around them. Sarah Lyons Fleming is a socially awkward, wannabe prepper, and a lover of anything apocalyptic. Besides an unhealthy obsession with home canned food, foraging, bug-out bag equipment. She loves books, making artsy stuff. And uh laughing her arse off, which is her language. I don't we don't have to censor ourselves. It's okay. I did use the F.

SPEAKER_02: 4:08

Well, I that I have that because you know you can't put it everywhere. So that's just the general, but oh I curse like a sailor, so if we can curse, man, forget it. Yeah. Please do.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

Yeah. Um born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, she now lives in Oregon with her family. And in her opinion, not nearly enough supplies for the zombie apocalypse, but she's working on it. Thanks, Sarah Lyons Fleming, for joining us on our podcast. Um, this I've I'm very excited for this interview.

SPEAKER_01: 4:36

Not to make it awkward or anything, but this is sort of a dream come true.

SPEAKER_03: 4:42

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 4:44

Um we have some icebreaker questions, and I hope you're ready. Um of these we ask everybody.

SPEAKER_04: 4:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:52

I I secretly wonder if people are getting sick of hearing these questions, but I love the answers that we get for them. So you have a choice, Sarah. You get to choose. And uh keep in mind, this is a decision you're making for the entire world at this point. You can choose whether to work a 40-hour work week or to be in the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_02: 5:15

It depends on what my work is. If I get to write, then hey, I'm cool. If um I have to go to an office, then F that, I want the zombie apocalypse. And um kind of right now, I'm just really wanting the zombie apocalypse in general. So I feel yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:34

What's the pull to the zombie apocalypse in this moment?

SPEAKER_02: 5:37

Um I guess be easier to kill a lot of people, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 5:43

You know, I I sometimes think that like if we have to choose so many people, if we have to choose our apocalypse, like we're facing so many apocalypses, and I feel like the most humane is the one where reanimated corpses come back to life and eat everybody.

SPEAKER_02: 5:59

I think that's yeah, I agree. I agree. And you know, in that situation, it's just kind of like um, you know, survival. Like, I don't want to hear about your bullshit. Like, either you're gonna be nice and you're gonna survive with us and help, or you know, get eaten. I don't care. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:17

Those neighbors that we will not name that we were talking about before we started recording would be an example. We think all the time about our one neighbor, and it's like, you know, if this was a zombie apocalypse, I think we'd have kicked her out.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

She's like, but I live here, that's my house. It's like, get out. Get out.

SPEAKER_03: 6:35

Uh not anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:37

So you get your you get your zombie apocalypse, just like you always wanted um everyone in the world is dead except for uh a small handful of people out there. And you get to choose what's what's your weapon of choice?

SPEAKER_02: 6:51

So I've thought about this a whole bunch because my characters have thought about it a lot. And um, at least in my books, it's like in some books, people are just ramming knives through skulls. And I'm like, dude, I'd never get a knife through a skull. Um you know, I don't think most people would. They're hard for a reason. So um they've played with various things, and um, one of my characters, Sylvie, loves like chisel, screwdriver, sharpened, you know, you get it right into eyes and up under chins and brainstems and things like that. Um, and then I have another character who has a war hammer. And in looking at war hammers, and then seeing that some have a spike on the end of it, like so you've got the like hammer on one side, you've got like the axey hook thing on the other, spiky thing on the other, and then you have a spike like on the front that you could use, you know, horizontally. I feel like that's gonna be my weapon because you've got the blunt force, you've got the pokey, you've got the axe thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:52

It's like the Swiss Army knife of weapons.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

It is, it is, I know.

SPEAKER_01: 7:56

And it's designed for bashing skulls, you know? It is. Where do you find a war hammer in the apocalypse? Do you have to make one?

SPEAKER_02: 8:04

Good idea. So I do have people in my books who, you know, make things. So, um, and that's gonna come in more in this the last series that's not done yet, the Cascadia series. Like one of them, this uh woman Daisy, she's like she built bikes before all of this. So she's like, she welds, she knows how to do things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 8:24

So yeah. I love Daisy already from bike building to war hammerers. That's a great character in development.

SPEAKER_00: 8:30

Daisy is one of my faves for exactly that reason. Because I I feel like that'd be my role in the apocalypse is just like smushing wet metal together and making dangerous things out of it.

SPEAKER_03: 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:42

You're on my team. Something that somebody pointed out to me uh not long ago, I feel like, is how like you know, there's there's a lot of choices when you when it comes to like choosing your weapon. And there's a lot of really good choices, but uh anything with a blade requires resharpening. Whereas a hammer never needs to be resharpened. It only becomes more of a hammer the more that you use it. That is true.

SPEAKER_01: 9:07

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

Yeah. So in in this apocalypse, you have stumbled upon uh a warehouse that promises a unlimited supply of a shelf stable food item. Um and I don't I'm not sure exactly how this magic works. So it's just magic. Uh so so don't think too deeply about how that's happening. You get to choose what that item is. Um, limited shelf-stable food item that you found.

SPEAKER_02: 9:38

Okay. I still have a question though. Is it like one thing or is it like a mixture of things? Like, can you say I want peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? Or can you say, no, you can have peanut butter?

SPEAKER_01: 9:49

No, you can have peanut butter. However, you can forage and find other things to make with your peanut butter if that's your selection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

The kind the the the rules are complicated because I think really the only rule it needs to be is it has to be one thing that comes in a container. So like peanut butter is its own thing, and the bread and jelly are another thing entirely. However, if you find mixed vegetables smackables, so you could yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:15

So you could go, so I would probably go with nuts of some sort. And I would so I guess like, you know, mixed nuts, trail mix, something. Then you could have then you have MMs.

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

Oh my god, trail mix is a perfect idea. It does come in one package.

SPEAKER_02: 10:29

It does, yeah. Or granola, something like that. Because I feel like you the most the hardest thing to find is often fat uh out in the world. Um, so that's it. I would go for something with fat, protein, and then I feel like you can find carbs, you can um find vitamin C, you can do all that, you know. That's all possible. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

Um this next question might be might be a loaded question. But um, you know, in this in this warehouse, you've also found an this this warehouse has been just a treasure trove. Uh, but you've also found a um solar powered DVD player, uh, which I've never seen one of those in the wild, but I feel like you can get anything on Timu. We make the rules on this show.

SPEAKER_02: 11:17

Like, you know, I have a little solar-powered like EcoFlow thing that has plugs, you know, so I could solar power plug in my DVD player, my TV, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

Yeah. Yeah. Um, what you've also found is a box set of DVDs. It might be a show or maybe a series of movies, or even like one of those four packs that you get at Walmart that's just like all Wesley Snipes movies or something. Some like combo that's like somehow vaguely remembered. Right, gotcha. But you only found one, and this is what you get to watch for the rest of your natural life.

SPEAKER_02: 11:54

Sheesh. I really don't know. I'm trying to think. You know how when somebody asks you, like, what books do you like? And you're like, I don't know how to read. I don't know what you're talking about. Um, yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to think of like a comfort show. My comfort show years ago used to be Northern Exposure, but I don't know how well it's aged up to 2020 something. So I've never seen that show.

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

I I remember watching it like as as a kid.

SPEAKER_02: 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:24

I remember nothing about it.

SPEAKER_02: 12:26

No, I loved it. Um, oh sheesh. I don't know. We might have to come back to this because I can't think of anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:34

Let me know if it occurs to you because I I feel like there's some other questions that might help us get in that direction. Okay, what would yours be? Oh, you're gonna ask me? That's not fair.

SPEAKER_03: 12:47

You might inspire me.

SPEAKER_00: 12:48

You know, I'm I I I feel like something that I could watch over and over again endlessly and just pick it apart and I and both get comfort and entertainment from it at the same time is The Walking Dead. Um, at least the first eight seasons.

SPEAKER_01: 13:06

It wouldn't feel too real in the actual apocalypse.

SPEAKER_00: 13:09

That's a you know, this is also a break? Yeah, that's not a break. No, it is. Some pet some people watch things that are horrifying to them um for a number of reasons. One is to either make fun of it, so they're like, oh, this is so stupid. I'm I'm like I can't believe that they think this is how it would actually be.

SPEAKER_02: 13:28

And the other th Yeah, I think you and I were messaging about hate watching, or wasn't hate watching jeer watching, yes. Anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:36

Um, and then the other reason, even if it's like a bad example, like uh they determine that a lot of people watch like romance movies because they're secretly trying to learn from them.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

Oh, that's horrifying because romance movies have so many bad lessons.

SPEAKER_00: 13:49

But okay. That's true.

unknown: 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

Um, but but those are sometimes the reasons that people watch something. And I feel like The Walking Dead would both be like a a catharsis in the zombie apocalypse, where I'm like, yeah, this is kind of stupid. That's not how zombies work. That's that you know, you can't stab somebody through the head like that. That doesn't even make sense. But that the on the other side I'd be like, oh yeah, I should be trying to find sorghum.

SPEAKER_02: 14:17

Yeah, okay. I get that. You know what? You inspired me, and I don't know why your thing inspired inspired me, but um, I think I'm gonna go with the Bill Murray collection.

SPEAKER_00: 14:28

Oh is this like a Walmart Bill Murray collection?

SPEAKER_02: 14:33

Like, yeah, yeah, because I can watch Yeah, because one of my favorite day days songs movies ever is Groundhog Day. Um so I got that, but then I've got like the 80s movies, and I've got the more serious, you know, current movies. I'm good. Yeah, I think Bill Murray. And I can watch Zombieland.

SPEAKER_00: 14:56

Yeah, that's a good point. So Yeah, it's a safe bet. Uh Bill Murray is a is a constant, a constant um, I don't know what the word is that I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_01: 15:05

Let's move on. Yeah, could I embarrass myself by asking this question? Bill Murray was in city slickers, right?

unknown: 15:11

No.

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

No, was that a couple of things? No, that was Billy Crystal. Oh, okay. I'm so bad at pop culture. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02: 15:16

Listen, I it's but my I know some people, but that stopped in like 2000. So, like, if it's not Brangelina, then I'm like, I don't know. I don't know who you're talking about. And they're not together now, right? I don't know. I don't think so. Yeah, my daughter actually knows more about that. She was saying something the other night about both Brad Pitt did, I don't know. Fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:37

Is Brad? I guess he's still alive. Okay. Brad Pitt is still alive. You're right. Uh, we have a couple of extra special rapid fire icebreaker questions for you from our mutual friend Elm Juniper Juniper. Are you ready? Yeah. How many cans of beans are under your bed? Elm wants to know.

SPEAKER_02: 15:55

Okay. Um, probably over a hundred right now.

SPEAKER_00: 15:58

Really? You just keep them under your bed?

SPEAKER_02: 16:02

Yeah. Because there's not enough room in the pantry.

SPEAKER_00: 16:05

So how many are in the pantry?

SPEAKER_02: 16:07

Well, uh, not that many. Probably like 40. I have a lot of cans of beans under my bed.

SPEAKER_00: 16:16

Wow. Well, you know what? I I feel like if you're gonna have you know, that's it's just wasted space under your bed. Might as well fill fill the beans.

SPEAKER_01: 16:24

Are you the kind of prepper that has like your doors, like a hollow you open up your door that's a hollow door, and you made secret shelves and you have stuff in there, or you won't tell us because then we all know.

SPEAKER_02: 16:33

I would love to be that kind of prepper. I am not, I'm not like super crazy, but I do really like having cans of beans. So, and flour. Those are like my two things.

SPEAKER_01: 16:43

Like, I mean, that'll get you pretty far. We are missing flour in our prepping kit. We have uh literally buckets of beans. Oh, I'm looking at them right now in our bunker.

SPEAKER_00: 16:52

Yeah, we have about 200 pounds, which I feel like is not anything compared to what's under your bed.

SPEAKER_02: 16:57

I feel like, well, once you rehydrate those 200 pounds of beans, you probably have like a one bed worth of beans.

SPEAKER_01: 17:05

Trump got elected and we were like, we need hundreds of pounds of beans.

SPEAKER_00: 17:11

Yeah, beans, lentils, rice. Um, and we've got some more buckets upstairs. 80 80 additional pounds upstairs of other things. Nice. Yeah, like oats and uh dehydrated vegetables and things like that.

SPEAKER_02: 17:24

But we need flour. I have those things outside, like in the garage that um back in, you know, packaged properly. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:33

How long do you think you could eat on what you have in your house and your garage?

SPEAKER_02: 17:36

I don't know. If I were a good prepper, I would have sat down and figured that out. But um, you know, a family, I don't know, people eat a lot. So in like one of the books of the Cascadia series, I actually just sit and figure out how much food does this group of people because this one book called World Without is they're very hungry and they're um they have escaped, but they've escaped to the woods. It's not the right time for you know, really getting food because it's moving into it's fall. Um, and so you know, they're foraging, they're doing stuff. But when you sit down and start to figure out how long food will last this group of people, which I did um lots of math, um, who is like, wow, all of that's gonna last them two days? You know, like what? It could seem like so much, and it's not like it's really hard. So um, I don't know. I mean, we we could at least for a couple months, at least. Like maybe three, but yeah, but we're not like I think a year would take, you know, I don't have room for that. My house is not big. So that's hence beans under the bed. Um, yeah, Sam.

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

I yeah, when you start doing math like that, I I can I can't help but feel like you start looking at the people around you a little bit more scrutinizingly.

SPEAKER_04: 18:57

Like you.

SPEAKER_00: 18:58

You know, if you have somebody in your party that's just a a total, a total dickhead and they're eating all your beans, you're just like, you know, we'd probably get another day's worth of beans if you weren't eating them.

SPEAKER_02: 19:10

Yeah. Yeah. Ah, yeah. So I have I've also I go through and I like, you know, when things are expired, you cycle through. I try to buy things only that we only eat, like only things that we eat. Um, but um, you know, things still escape you and expire, which doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad. So I've started putting a whole bunch of expired food into bins that, you know, they're sort of last resort, or they're people come asking for food in like the most dire circumstances kind of scenario. People want food, and I'm like, here you go, here's some food. Like, try to feed people because I don't want to be the prepper who's like, get away. You know, I feel like community is important. And so I would rather share my food and then I'll come up with a plan to get more than live on my food, conquered down, thinking everybody is my enemy, and you know, then not be able to get any more because I'm on my own, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

This is why I like the zombie apocalypse better, because I believe people like you are the ones who are gonna survive, not the not the ones. I was just reading on threads this person who was mad because somebody was in the food bank line with an expensive car and they just could not conceive of the fact that maybe they uh for whatever reason are driving an expensive car and still need food. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:30

Maybe they already owned it outright. Maybe somebody gave it to them. Like uh that's they borrowed it. Yeah, it's oh my god, it's so annoying. It's like, whoo, how dare you buy soda in the food in the line on food stamps? Like, like let someone have a little bit of joy, dude. Like, you know, I mean, and what if their kids having a birthday party? What if it's just none of your fucking business?

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

You know, like what if it's cheaper than buying water?

SPEAKER_02: 20:54

Yeah. Yeah, seriously, right? What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01: 20:59

So this is the opposite of fun food, like buying a Coke. This last question from Elm, but I think it's a very important one. Elm asks, would you rather eat fish or cockroaches?

SPEAKER_02: 21:43

Oh my god, fish. So I mean, I hate fish, and I would I like no, but at least it's something that I could put near my mouth and swallow. Like, no way.

SPEAKER_04: 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:54

I have a cockroach phobia, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:58

Same.

unknown: 21:59

No.

SPEAKER_02: 21:59

Yeah. I'm like, burn it all down. Like when my daughter one day is like, what would you do if we saw a roach in the house? And like, I'd move out, like with me, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

Yeah, because if you see one, that means there's like two billion in the on the floorboards.

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

They're somewhere, yeah. I um yeah at one point was working on doing this like loving meditation. And so there was this cockroach that we listen in Georgia. Just to be clear, there's cockroaches. You can't do anything about it, they're there. Oh, like the big old palm. Yeah, the big ones, palmetto bugs. Yeah, my mom.

SPEAKER_02: 22:28

Yeah, my mom and stepdad lived in Charleston for a while.

SPEAKER_01: 22:32

Oh, those things are those things are extra in Charleston.

SPEAKER_02: 22:35

Yeah, and so they had somebody spray and she had like a vacuum for bugs, and she'd just like call my stepdad, be like, get over and kill that thing. Um, but that you know, because yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_01: 22:47

They're just they are, but I managed to actually feel affection for this one when I was doing my little I'm like, you're just scared. You're just a little scared guy. Don't come near me, don't touch me. I had one crawl up my pants once, and that was very upsetting. If you can't do this, you walk in the bed.

SPEAKER_02: 23:04

Well, in New York, we call them water bugs, and they don't fly, except that apparently um in recent summers that have gotten more hot and more humid, um, the ones, especially in the subways where it's even worse, they will actually fly. They don't they more glide, those like palmetto bugs, water bugs, all that, but they have begun to do that because it is warm enough for them to do that. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:32

Yeah, no. I think the biggest problem that I have with this.

SPEAKER_02: 23:34

Anyway, oh, I know what I was saying. Sorry, sorry. I woke up, I woke up, I had a basement room in Brooklyn and that my dad built, blah, blah, blah. Um, and I woke up one morning with one crawling toward my face on my blanket, and I was like, I am so fucking out of this room, and I moved into my older brother's room as teenager. We my brother and I shared a room as teenagers because I was like, no, not doing it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:59

Yeah, bug bugs they don't have any boundaries. They think it's fine to crawl on your face.

SPEAKER_01: 24:04

They didn't know any better. I gotta give them some they don't know. They need to learn.

SPEAKER_00: 24:08

They are called bugs. Survival depends on it. I I uh the the worst thing that I ever had a bug do is I I had a scorpion crawl across my face in Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_03: 24:19

Oh.

SPEAKER_00: 24:20

And uh, and it was it was pitch black, pitch black in the dark. I just felt this thing scurry across my face, and I jumped out of bed and I'm like, what was that? And then I I saw this giant black scorpion on the floor, and I'm just like, nope, nope, nope, nope. I still check my my boots every every time I put them on. Yeah. So I check for scorpions every time.

SPEAKER_01: 24:40

That's fair. That's traumatizing. Yeah. I think that there's some people who are listening, like, we you should have put a bug trauma warning at the beginning of this episode because they draw like a lot of people will have their own stories, I bet, listening to this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:54

Yeah. And I I don't I don't really well, I don't like want a scorpion on me, but most other bugs, like it's it's really just roaches. Like, I don't mind, I'm the person who everybody in my house screams when there's a spider. And I'm like, yeah, I'll just well, let's take it outside. Like, and I catch them. And uh, my dad told me when I was little that it was bad luck to kill a spider. So I don't kill spiders. So I catch them and I put them outside. So that's you know, I'm not, it's not like, but it's roaches. That's I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_01: 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:23

I was very proud of myself that one night where I was able to be like, okay, I don't hate you up there on my ceiling.

SPEAKER_02: 25:30

So and then did you just let it crawl away into I don't know where it went. Yeah, I don't know. Oh god.

SPEAKER_01: 25:36

I mean, we did spray for them too, like so it wasn't common to see them, but I would I was just like, here's my chance to practice sending love to something that I would rather send love. Yeah.

unknown: 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:47

Um let's start this off with the most important question, I think, uh, is what when did you decide that you wanted to write in a in zombie apocalypse fiction? Like what was what inspired you?

SPEAKER_02: 26:03

So it's funny because I didn't read any zombie books. Um and I I was reading a whole bunch of there's like a domino effect. I needed to, I I was, you know, you borrow books from the library back in the day, which is 2006. You still can.

SPEAKER_00: 26:21

Sorry. You still can.

SPEAKER_02: 26:23

Yes, you still can. But what I'm saying is that I did often, which I still do, but I buy the electronic ones, and I borrow the electronic ones. But so I'd be trying to read while nursing my daughter with a big old hardcover, a book light on that. And I kept dropping it, and would drop it on their heads, you know, their head. And then my son, after I had him, drop it on his head. And I was like, I need to like do something, but you couldn't read a candle in the dark, blah, blah, blah. Found out you could read an iPod, started reading, which opened up a whole bunch of reading that wasn't on the computer, because I don't like to read long things on a computer. Um, so then I was like, Oh, look at, and you know, I like prepping and I've always been on those forums on and off, just reading stuff. And so people were like, Oh, you know, read this book, read this book, read this book, and a lot of self-published stuff. And so I started, you know, reading because that because I liked it. And um I was reading, and they were just all the same guy, you know, who's like, oh, often right wing, but sometimes it's not really stated. Um, you know, white dude has everything, you know, everyone's the sheeple, nobody else is smart, nobody else knows how to do anything, nobody has any skills, you know, that kind of thing. And I was just like, dude, I prep. I know about this shit. Like, where are the people like me? Where are those people? So I started to and um I'd already said, I'd always said, like, I'm never gonna write a book. This my my husband um went to school for creative writing. Like he took got an MA and an MFA in creative writing. And uh I was his alpha reader, and I'd be like, oh, how do you even do this? It's so much work, it's so annoying. Um but anyway, I got just suddenly this like bug in my pants, not a roach, who um to like where I wonder, like, where are these people? Like you could write, so all of a sudden, Cassie and the gang popped into my head. And originally it was an EMP. So um, this is 2011. Uh, I was like, well, maybe you should just like write it. And you know, I don't know, I'd never written fiction before. Um, so I was like, well, okay, like I'll just, you know, I it was kind of like they wouldn't leave me alone, like the story, the characters, like they were having conversations and like I was having ideas for few, like what would happen later. And so I started to write it. And I think I don't know when, but it's very early, chapter two, three, whatever. I was like thinking ahead. I think, and all of a sudden, I was like, but zombies, like, and I the only zombie book I'd ever read was World War Z. Um, I'd never read a zombie book before that. And I was like, you know what? Like, and I was like, what do you mean zombies? This is all to myself.

SPEAKER_00: 29:15

And um I feel like I'm inside your brain.

SPEAKER_02: 29:19

You are, it's very chaotic in here. Good luck. Um and uh uh I was like, well, huh. And I just suddenly started seeing how like that would be really cool and how much they could just fuck up everybody's day. Sort of like when you get into the EMP and all realm and all of that, like it it's very much like bad people. And uh I didn't, I mean, there's gonna be bad people, which you know I have also explored and will continue to, but I also sort of like, you know, there's like man against nature or people against nature and you know, against themselves and and not just against, you know, more people. So um I was like, well, that would be really cool because though you could have bad people, it's sort of like the zombies are the bad people, like and but they're not. And that's what makes them so I think even scarier is that like they're so relentless, but yet, and you and you feel like and they are after you, but it's sort of like it's so mindless, which could even be scarier because it's like, you know, yeah, you can outsmart them, but you can't like out energy them. You know, you can't, yeah, you can outrun them, but could you outwalk them? Forever? No. Probably not. You know? So I don't know. Yeah. So that's the zombies popped into my head and I was like, oh no, well, let me just start this differently and see where it goes. And then yeah, there it went.

SPEAKER_00: 30:46

I'm glad that it felt right. I'm glad that you mentioned the uh the books that you'd tried to uh tried reading before because I I also have been inundated by uh uh uh a trove of exactly that same exact narrative over and over again. Um and I've I feel like for a long time it was kind of like uh dominating the charts. That's what it was suggesting to me every time. But I'm like, what other zombie stories are there out there? It just it's just like here's another dude with a family that thinks that all of his kids are stupid and all of his neighbors are stupid, and he's the only one that can save the world. And I kind of classify those as um the uh the the power trip fantasy zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_03: 31:29

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:29

Oh yeah, it's all about like uh maximum violence against the zombies. Uh you're the only one who can save the world, and everybody else is helpless.

SPEAKER_01: 31:39

A lot of guns. This is why when we started this podcast, Sarah, and I've I've shared this before, so I'll just say it briefly. But when we started it, one of the things I was worried about was like, I'm like, are we just gonna read a bunch of like angry white dude stories in the zombie apocalypse? Because if we are, I'm not going to read them. Um, and then very quickly, like we found Elm, and then through Elm, we found you. And then we've had so much exposure to other amazing authors like Sylvester Barzi, like and it goes on on Courtney Constantine, Alice B. So I feel like I need to say them all now. You know who you are. You're wonderful. Um, which was so refreshing because I was scared genuinely. I was like, I don't want to do the that part, Dan. You can read the books. I'll just be here as like a commenter.

SPEAKER_02: 32:19

I feel like there was some sort of like mind meld, um, because when I released my book in 2013, so when I wrote it, I was just, I was like, well, um, I'm just gonna, I guess I'll just like when I'm done, I'll post it on zombie forums. Like I really didn't have a plan. I had zero plan for this book. Um and then, you know, in just while writing and reading about Kindle and reading more on things like Kindle and stuff, which was mainly, you know, where people only bought books then. Um I was like, well, maybe you could like release it for 99 cents or, you know, like I don't know. Like, so yeah, so I released it free at first. I kept it free for a little bit because you used to be able to just put a book for free uh up there. And um, and then I guess you still can, but not in KU. I don't know, whatever. Um, you can cut that out of uh or not. You can just listen to me ramble, whatever. I love it. Um but a lot of a lot of other people also released books like right then. So like um Tracy Ward. I don't know if you have ever read Tracy Ward's books. I feel like we need to start writing this down. Yeah, she's awesome. Open a new new document.

SPEAKER_00: 33:32

We're gonna take literally doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 33:35

And uh Claire Claire Riley, Claire C. Riley, uh, she's British and she released books. Um Rachel Rachel Aukes, which is A-U-K-E-S, Aux, which is probably how I say it in my head, but it's gonna say it in the real world.

SPEAKER_00: 33:50

The Deadline saga, I think, right?

SPEAKER_02: 33:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Lindsay Pogue and Lindsay Sparks with their ending series. They're never zombies, but they were post-apoc, um, uh and sort of like a fantastical element in other. But anyway, so there were a whole bunch of people sort of released, and we like got to know each other, like, oh, hey neighbor, like, you know, um, so it's cool. It was like suddenly there was a bunch of that, and it was like some was YA, but not all. Um, you know, and even the YA that was was less YA than, you know, other YA. So um, yeah, yeah. So it was kind of cool. It's like I think a lot of people started being like, hey, where are the like, where are we in this scenario?

SPEAKER_00: 34:36

And I I totally agree that there was like there was some kind of like a zombie apocalypse awakening. And I think I was feeling it at the time too. Just like, um, I feel like it's a religion. Started for me like in 2005. And something that I struggled with was that I was not finding the stories that adequately satiated my thirst for the zombie apocalypse. And a lot of these were like, you know, the ones the ones that you described earlier, the the the power trip fantasy. Um, and like people who just got it wrong, you know, like people that just didn't understand it and they were just like, I'll write this because it's easy or something. Um whereas I feel like around 2010, and maybe it coincided with The Walking Dead becoming popular, but people started thinking more deeply about the zombie apocalypse, and they started thinking about like how it can be used to describe interpersonal relationships and community building and alternative ways of living other than the one that we're in right now.

SPEAKER_01: 35:36

Which is my favorite part. Like my favorite part of the book I shouldn't have started with uh in the very beginning before Dan told me I should stop reading it. Start at the beginning. Was like figuring out, you know, having to like help the cat and the dog go to the bathroom and like deal with that when you're on the road to Alaska. Like that was like nobody's ever talked about pooping in the apocalypse, and I feel like it's such an important topic.

SPEAKER_02: 35:57

Oh my god, I'm obsessed with poop in the apocalypse. So, and that was one of my things in like every book I've written is like, how are people going to the bathroom? Like, whenever they get somewhere new, if they're gonna be there, friendly, like how what are they gonna do? There's a lot of poop, you know, like in this world, like everybody's all have to deal with it. You know, I mean, if you're living, you're pooping. So, like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's all it's like important. Um, yeah. And you know what's funny is that I also had, because I live under a rock apparently, um, I had no idea that The Walking Dead was a show. And so you just said it came out in 2010. So it was like, I was writing my book then. I had no idea. So I had the first draft done, and I don't know, because my husband, he's like, hey, you know, there's this show.

SPEAKER_04: 36:46

And I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

This is really how clueless I was about zombie things. Like, you know, I'd seen like zombieland and loved it, and I'd, you know, seen like the old movies and you know that kind of thing, but I really just didn't know anything about zombies. I was like, well, yeah, whatever. I'm just gonna write what I know, which I guess was nothing. But um, and uh, I was like, no, wow, cool. So I was really excited. And the I think the first season was done then, or it was like they were doing that hiatus. I don't know, but there was a whole bunch for me to watch. And it was funny because the whole time I'm watching, I'm going, oh my god, oh my god, don't do anything that I did in my first draft. Don't do anything I did in my first draft, don't do anything.

SPEAKER_00: 37:29

That's how I feel about current events right now. I'm just like, stop doing the things in my book.

SPEAKER_02: 37:35

Um also please don't. So yeah, I I would love to write like a uh techno state um techno feudalism kind of like apocalypse book. And uh yeah, I'm like, but I don't really need to see it. Like we don't need it for real, y'all. Like I can make it up.

SPEAKER_00: 37:53

Don't give them any ideas.

SPEAKER_04: 37:55

No.

SPEAKER_00: 37:56

Um yeah, I I I mean that that might have worked in your favor. Like uh I I think that like when I read your books, I feel like it's a a fresh take. And despite the fact that you wrote them over a decade ago, I'm like, wow, what a fresh idea. Um and I and maybe part of it's that like you weren't you weren't influenced by anything else, so you weren't trying to be anything, uh, other than things that you already found interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 38:23

Yeah, I think that's really as like I like survival, I like prepping, I like like friendship and laughing and you know, that kind of stuff. And so uh that was kind of like like I used to say it was um uh zombie chiclet, which then I would I would get emails from like rough men. This isn't chiclet, I liked it. I'm like, well, maybe you like chiclet then. Did you ever think of that? But um but but the reason why is because you know, back in the 90s and stuff, I loved, I still do like rom-com books, and I loved those, like that that golden age of the 90s um rom-com books, um you know, I guess movies too. Um, but you know, like just all those, all those authors back then, um I loved them. So it was sort of like, but they were they were always, they weren't just like silly, like they were groups of people, they had real feelings, they had friends, they had humor, they had uh and so it was kind of like I took that group of people almost and put them in the apocalypse. So that's why I called it chick lip. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:30

Something that I really loved about your writing, and it's something that became more and more clear to me the more I was reading, especially in the in the first series, and then moving on to the other series, is that you have this level of of world building that's like it seems like there's so much more going on than your characters even know about. Um and I really I think that really helps in later series because everything lines up. Like you have no confusion about what's what's happening in the world, um, outside of the smaller world where your characters exist. Did how did you did you like map out all the events and the timeline before you started, or did you just wing it?

SPEAKER_02: 40:12

I I am I am I'm a panser to like the oh does if people are listening don't know that means you're not a plotter. That means you sort of fly by the seat of your pants when you're writing. Um like you pants people really?

SPEAKER_00: 40:28

That's what she does. She said it here.

SPEAKER_02: 40:30

I just anywhere I go, just somewhat random yank them down, right?

SPEAKER_01: 40:34

It's the wrong time to try to drink coffee.

SPEAKER_02: 40:39

Um so no, no. And I and some I have to go back and be like, wait, will this work? Or um, and sometimes I I have ideas of what's going on in the outer world, but you know, I I very much like being in sort of that like microcosm of like, these people don't know. How the hell are they gonna know? You know, unless they get which they do, they get radio reports. Sometimes they get, you know, whatever. Some rando comes past and says, Oh, hey, did you hear? But um yeah, it's uh, but yeah, no, I I'm not good at that.

SPEAKER_01: 41:12

Well that blows open my whole my whole theory. So does it all just live in your brain, this world? Or did you at some point did you like it?

SPEAKER_02: 41:19

No, well, no, it really it most of it does, and God forbid I'm ever knocked on the head because like it's gonna be gone. Like I just um yeah, no, it's it's I actually have a lovely um reader, Molly. Hi Molly, thank you, Molly. Which she made like this insane document, and she has listed like timelines and like characters and like and I've been trying to do this for like five years, like if not longer. I've tried, you know, um, like notebooks, I've tried digital notebooks, I've tried a wiki that, you know, like a wiki that lives on your own computer. Like, I mean, I've tried so many, and I just can't get my act together to do it. So um she just is like this like a hundred something page document. It's insane. And I was like, I can't believe you did this. And thank you. Like it's this is what I needed. So I guess some of it does live outside my head now, but not the stuff to come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:21

You're you have you have a Molly. We have an Ollie.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

Molly and Ollie should be friends.

SPEAKER_00: 42:28

Yeah, because that's the same level of commitment as Molly and Ollie. Because I feel like they'd make beautiful spreadsheets together.

SPEAKER_02: 42:37

Seriously. I was like, she was like, oh, well, you did the work like in in the writing. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You did the work for this. Like, I might have written the books, but like just because you had the information, like you went and put it together. Like, that's that's like a lot of work. And I really appreciated it. And I would will absolutely use it.

SPEAKER_01: 42:57

It's like receiving a hundred-page love letter. Like, that's true dedication, and like I know really seeing your story in a way that is rare.

SPEAKER_02: 43:05

Yeah, yeah. No, it it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 43:08

So we should all be so lucky to have somebody make a hundred-page document about our plans.

SPEAKER_02: 43:14

I mean, I am such a disorganized human being and things do live in my brain. Um, so trying to like get them out and have them make sense half the time, like it's such a struggle. Um, in terms of yeah, planning, organizing. Every time I've ever written a like outline, I'm like, what are they called? Um what are these things? I have actually you know, um, I've sat and written, I've been like, well, let's get your shit together, you know, and do this. And I will write an outline, and then the next day or two days later, it's like, nope, not gonna follow that. Like, I mean, it's just like a waste. Like I've tried it and it's become and I finally I was like, just stop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:01

I mean, you don't need to. That's it's clear though, right? Like you have a system in your brain.

SPEAKER_02: 44:06

So yeah, and like I I have what I call like I call them stepping stones, sort of. So with every series so far and with the books in the series, it's like I have, you know, beginning, I have this big thing happens, this big thing happens, this big thing happens, this is how it ends. Or, you know, little scenes. Doesn't have to be a big thing. This is a little scene where this and this, you know, goes on. Um, and I also know uh when I started the first book, I've known how the very last book ends, like the last book in the series. Um, like down to like a scene living in my head. And so it can change, you know, there's a lot of words in between, but so far with all three series, I've written the epilogue of the very final book of the series before I finish book one. Like, and it's you know, it's terrible writing. It's gonna need to be changed, but it's like it won't stop bothering me until I at least get it out. And I think that kind of like helps me to get to that endpoint instead of, you know, but but in between those points, it's like no clue.

SPEAKER_00: 45:13

I totally understand.

SPEAKER_02: 45:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:16

Um, I mean, I could I could go on and on about that, but like I'm not, I'm not going to I'm not going to pirate the uh the sound waves.

SPEAKER_03: 45:25

I like to hear about things.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

It it sometimes it feels like a mental illness um when I try to make something happen and then the book takes over. Um but I do have like these ideas that I'm like, I want to get there. Please, characters, get to the point that I want to get to. And I just I just become I just start uh trying to reason with them. I'm like, please just do what you're supposed to.

SPEAKER_02: 45:51

And sometimes they just don't listen. Like I've I've had characters not die who were supposed to die, um, without giving spoilers. Um and I've had characters who I didn't think would die die. In fact, I had one that when I realized she was about to die, I actually was like, and I put my computer down and I got up and I just started walking around my house for like 10 minutes, like in this like like this state of some like like shock almost. Like it's like I had to like come to terms with the fact that I was about to go write this, because a lot of deaths I know are coming, but this one was kind of, I mean, it was spur of the moment for her and it was spur of the moment for me. And so I really had to walk her in the house being like, okay, okay, you can do this, like she's doing it, it's all right, you know. So yeah, I feel like I can't do that.

SPEAKER_03: 46:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:46

Uh because I because I feel like I had that experience when it happened.

SPEAKER_04: 46:50

Um yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 46:53

You know, actually this is this is uh segues perfectly into a question that uh Courtney Constantine asked.

SPEAKER_03: 47:01

Um lovely lady.

SPEAKER_00: 47:03

Courtney Constantine introduced us on Facebook.

SPEAKER_03: 47:05

Yeah, she did. She did.

SPEAKER_00: 47:08

Uh Courtney wants to know what kind of trauma do you have that you need. You have you have to inflict such horrible heartache on your readers.

SPEAKER_03: 47:18

I know. I know.

SPEAKER_00: 47:21

But I guess it just happened. Like you didn't make that choice.

SPEAKER_02: 47:25

Right? It's zombies or whoever did it. Um, yeah, I don't know. I I don't I I guess because I I sort of like to see how much you could throw at someone and um, you know, some people die, but uh and and and kind of how they come back from that. Like I have a I have a big um I like hope. I like redemption. I like um like when all is sort of seems lost, like finding that little glimmer of like, you know, your strength, your hope, your whatever that gets you moving again. Um and I actually started writing when I started writing until the end of the world, I was um going through a really rough period in my life, and I had two little kids and um yeah, it was and and I was like, I'm gonna write this. And people afterward were like, so really, during like this worst point of your life, you decide to write a book. And I was like, it kept me sane. And so I think because I've gotten like emails from people who have said to me that like my like those books and but my books in general that are like I was having a really rough time with, and sometimes they'll tell me all about their life experience or like death of somebody or whatever, and like and and it and it helped me like get through that trauma and thank you. And like that is like absolutely amazing. I might get all teary-eyed, but um, like to me, I would I've just been like, holy shit, like that, that's amazing. But I don't know if some of that comes forward, it comes through in that like trying to get through rough times and and come out the other side being like, I'm still me, I'm still strong, I'm still, you know, maybe better.

SPEAKER_00: 49:14

So yeah, that's what we always that's the hope of going into something horrible is that you come out uh alive, but hopefully better.

SPEAKER_02: 49:23

Yeah, and it and it doesn't mean you're not scarred, it doesn't mean you don't, you know, um, you know, you weren't affected by it, but it does mean that, you know, hopefully a lot of those experiences can kind of make you more empathetic, more loving, more caring, you know. Um so yeah, like sometimes I think that like it's no one wants to be bullied or have a bad experience, but I feel like, you know, having Ben on that side of things as a young person, like it sometimes makes you more empathetic. It makes you more able to see, like, yeah, that didn't happen to me. You know, not not about bullying, but about anything in this world, like food stamps, like we were saying earlier, you know, like, like, yeah, buy a freaking soda. I don't care. Buy what you, you know, like like just having empathy for other human beings. I think that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 50:17

Yeah, trauma can definitely offer that opportunity to become a softer person. And it's interesting, you're not the first author to say that um you wrote your first book about zombies while also going through something really hard. So I find that very interesting as like a way of processing. But I it also makes sense because what you're saying is like a fundamental truth. And I know like when I'm depressed, I'm not putting on um a song called Happy. I'm putting on the lights on the horizon by metric and crying my eyes out and feeling seen by my my personal obsession, Emily Haynes, and being like, I love you. Thank you for keeping me alive by also being sad and making a song about it. So I do think there's something that's really beautiful about sharing trauma bonding through through art and books. Um seeing that you can be resilient and that there can still be like love and care, even the worst circumstances, like the simple act of making sure the cat can go to the bathroom and not wanting to hurt the dog who's barking all the time.

SPEAKER_02: 51:15

Absolutely. And like I have a character in my my this series who at the beginning, I don't think it's a spoiler because it's like apparent from you know, basically page one, um, who is having uh um issues with her husband and emotional abuse and you know drug addiction, but um and but a lot, you know, emotional abuse and her sort of head space. And and I've had people be like, oh, like thank you for writing that because I thought I was crazy, or that's that is how it happens, and that, you know, um is is how I feel, you know, and and it's it's it's yeah, I think that's like the most rewarding thing when you can write a story and then you have people who um relate on those levels with your characters because they feel so real that they're recognizable to people. Um like that's the best compliment, I think. And on, you know, two people who've contacted me and said, I didn't know I was ace, you know. I have an ace character, Craig. And uh I and and I didn't know. I love him so much. Um, he's my baby.

SPEAKER_00: 52:25

Um like what an underdog story.

SPEAKER_02: 52:28

I know continue.

SPEAKER_00: 52:29

I'm sorry, I interrupted.

SPEAKER_02: 52:30

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just it's just like we were saying, just sharing, just having these these people, these experiences that like some come from you, some come from other people that you can put into these characters in a realistic way and then have people relate. I just feel like you know, that's the best part of writing. That's the best part of reading. I love to read books that that happens.

SPEAKER_00: 52:50

So they they came to the the zombie apocalypse to to learn something from your books.

SPEAKER_03: 52:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:56

You know. And they they learned things about themselves.

SPEAKER_03: 53:01

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 53:03

I I do like that you have some really great uh uh redemption arcs in your stories. Um people that are like you you you really grow to hate these people because they're just such insufferable assholes. So when Courtney Constantine was introducing us, I asked Courtney um if uh based on what I learned from your books, should I be an unredeemable jerk um and make you absolutely hate me, but then experience some sort of character growth and mature into a man who's in touch with his feelings, and then we would be become uh best friends forever forever, like an unbreakable bond because of that group. Uh would that be a good idea? Um, would that have worked?

SPEAKER_02: 53:50

Yeah, I really just like diapes nice people better. Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 53:56

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02: 53:57

Um I got I scared.

SPEAKER_00: 53:59

I got I chickened out. I wasn't I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02: 54:02

No, no. I uh yeah. I I've never been one of those, you know, women who are like, oh, he treats me bad, nice. You know, I'm just I I don't. I'm like, listen, are you a dick? Are you funny? Like if you're not a dick and you're funny, then yay, like that's cool. But um yeah, no. I mean, I that I love redemption arcs arcs because I love that sometimes you have people who that is under there, that that the good person is, it's just been covered up with so much like hurt and and and you know experience that um that they're afraid for it to come out. And I do love that. And I do, you know, like to meet people like that. And but I upon first meet, you know, I probably be like, well, I don't want to hang out with that person, you know. So I think when you're forced into the situation, then yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:56

Yeah, you're surviving together. Yeah, you yeah, they better have a redemption arc, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:01

Otherwise, otherwise they're gonna kick get kicked out of their house.

SPEAKER_02: 55:07

I did have one character in the City series who um like could have redeemed himself, and you know, you're kind of thinking that he I wasn't even sure if he would. And he absolutely does not. Um yeah, and that was kind of fun. Like to to just be like, is he gonna? Is he gonna? Yeah, he is, he is, and then he's just like, No, I'm not a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00: 55:31

Like, yeah, so yeah, I love I love hearing this because it totally um backs up how I feel about writing because like I'm hearing you talk about your own writing as if it's something that other people did inside of your head. And uh like sometimes I really feel that way.

SPEAKER_04: 55:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:51

Um something that I found uh really inspiring. And I I noticed this early on in your first series. Because your first series is mostly from the perspective of one person.

SPEAKER_04: 56:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:04

Um and it's all first person uh perspective too, uh, to point out. Like um sometimes I forget that it is because uh you did something in your uh novella So Long Lollipops, where you switched perspective um to a male POV. And it kind of blew my mind. And I'll ad I'll admit that like it really challenged some of these like left behind lingering scraps of of misogyny that were inside of me that made that like I I had the thoughts inside of my head that I'm like I'm surprised that I'm that that this is that like I I'm not noticing anything outside of this POV. Like it seems like it seems like it's from the person, um, not from the writer writing the person, uh which I then told myself that of course uh that's the case because you're a great writer. Um but it it did make me like realize that about myself and made me realize that like you can write outside of your own POV um and switch perspectives like that. And then later on in your series you you s you switch um a lot. It becomes a regular thing.

SPEAKER_02: 57:19

Um I'm like, really? Four people, dude.

SPEAKER_00: 57:23

Like that yeah, I could imagine that that's that's a challenge.

SPEAKER_02: 57:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:28

Really? I remember just to briefly pop in here, I remember you coming home from that day where you were listening to um So Long Lollipops and being like, I still have a misogynist inside. We're like, let's unpack that. It's okay. Like we have lingering programming. Um, but what's really cool is like realizing.

SPEAKER_04: 57:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:47

Um, and to be frank, I think a lot of women writers are much better at writing men than men are at writing women because um men have been trained to see women as objects and not subjects.

SPEAKER_03: 57:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:57

Yeah, like that. She tit she titted boobily down the stairs.

SPEAKER_00: 58:01

I loved it when you wrote that. Um yeah, I mean, there was there was just some things that like were were gendered in my mind that I had to like rethink. Um That's why I love Hansera. Just as an example. And some of those things were things that I've that I've experienced personally, like some of the the action in So Long Lollipops, I I wasn't expecting from this series. Like I I had a very different idea of what that was from the first book, and then going in, I'm like, the stakes felt so high and it felt so real. I almost felt like I was there. And I'm like, I've I've been shot at before, and I've this feels this this action sequence feels like somebody who knows what it's like to have a a red-hot flying piece of lead flying at them. Sarah, have you been shot at?

SPEAKER_01: 58:52

No, thankfully.

SPEAKER_02: 58:56

I'm hoping to keep it that way, but you know, um, no, but thank you. That's awesome. Um yeah, I don't, I I guess I I just I I really like people. And I really like hearing stories, and I really love nonfiction. Um, I I've spent entire years of my life just being like going through phases where I'm only reading nonfiction, like creative nonfiction, you know, where um it's written like a novel almost, but it's true. Um I just love seeing how people react and and I do research. So um I like to get first, you know, if it's not first hand experience, I like to get somebody else's first hand experience. Yeah, you know, and really read up on something because I'm like, I don't know what that is like, you know, and I could put myself into somebody's shoes as much as I as much as possible, but yeah, I just yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 59:49

So yeah, I I think I think that helps a lot because like I'm I'm writing outside of my own personal experience. So I'm like, I have so much doubt. Um, and I'm just like, can I do this? But like hearing that it it helps helps me realize that a lot of this is just like learning and hearing other people about their own experiences.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm super nosy. So like you could be telling me a story, you're like, oh, so I have this friend, you know, Rob, and he and I will actually get so into it. I'll be like, well, what is what happened then? What did he say? What did they say? What is that? Like, like I'm and I'm never gonna talk to anybody about this, Rob. I don't know him. I'm not. I'm it's not like gossip that I need to know. I'm just so like I just so nosy. Like I love to hear people's experiences and how they reacted and why they reacted that way and in that kind of thing. And I think that absolutely helps with writing people.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:49

Um I'm bad at ask asking questions. Um I know I know I'm a host of a podcast and all, but uh but I I think that my strength is listening.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:59

So yeah, well, and I think sometimes if you're just quiet, people will just tell you things. Oh, thank you. And then you can ask little questions like, oh no, and what happened then? Or how did he do like what did he do then? Or well, how did he feel about that? Or oh my god, that must have been terrible, you know. Well, and then they just keep talking because yeah, yeah. Um I'm like what I look for in a friend on the phone is that they will talk for 90% of the time, and then you know, I can do the 10% filler thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:28

Um we can't be friends, Sarah, because I'm the same way. I need the 90%. And people are like, but wait, how are you? And I'm like, uh let's not talk about that. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:36

Like, I don't know. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:38

We're just gonna be all sitting around in a circle being like, but then what happened? Um also something that I've that I find really fascinating is that there's so many there's so many like deep knowledge rabbit holes um in in your writing. It seems like you've explored some of the tiniest details of a subject to its tenth degree, just so that you can understand it better and write about it. And like I noticed this about like when you're talking about pickling. Uh sometimes you're just talking about like mountain bikes. Uh yeah. Sometimes it's about acorn flour. And like there's so there's so many times that I've heard of people in you know, like in some zombie show. Oh, I think I think Kat wants to come in.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:33

I was showing you some acorns. Oh, I have collected. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:39

You'll watch like an uh like a zombie show and they're like, oh, I made these out of acorns, but they don't go into depth talking about like bleaching like leaching the tannins out of it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:48

And I have a problem with that Walking Dead episode, okay? Because Carol, you did not just make those acorn cookies. She's like, I've got a disguise at these acorns, and here we go. Like, no, motherfucker. Like that's a that you have to leech the tannins out of the acorns. And that's not like an easy thing to do. It's not, it's not a quick thing to do. It's an easy thing to do, I guess, but it's not a quick thing to do. Um, so yeah, I was like, those would have been the worst cookies you've ever made. Like they would have been horrible.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:18

Everybody loved them in the show. I know one person who took one bite and he's like, it's they're great.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:25

But I will say, like, this is why it's important to have the detail orientation that you do, because I was living a life of thinking that acorn flour was super easy until Dan informed me. Because of you and your story informed me that I was wrong, that we could not just do that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:41

This is why people don't really eat acorns, is probably because I mean because they're they're you know traditional food. Um, you know, especially out here, um, so many of the indigenous tribes here ate acorns and they were like a major food source in California. Um, and you know, they're they're they're used in Korean cuisine um commonly. Uh so you know, but but they take work. And so I think that there'd probably be more of an acorn um market if they didn't take all that work to leech and yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:16

And we'd we'd all be working on acorn farms.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:19

This is one of my gripes of the modern era, though, is like right now I'm between jobs, Sarah, and a friend of mine asked asked me how I was doing how's the job hunt, and I was like, well, either I'm gonna get a job soon, or if the full collapse of this empire is coming, and I get to live like my gardening and foraging fantasies. Because if I don't have to have a job, then I have time to do the stuff with the acorns.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:38

I need to just putter and do all the things. Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like the part where you die if you can't get it right is scary, but you know I better not fuck this up.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:51

Um, but you have a very short time window sometimes, too. It's like, I better learn how to garden like right now, or else I'm gonna starve to death in the winter.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:02

And and you know, and even gardening, it's like then you do all that gardening and you're like, so how do I pickle? How do I pickle without killing myself?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:13

You know what I think a lot about is like cabbage worms are my bane of my garden existence. I hate them so much. I've tried many things. They always at some point get something I don't want them to get. And yeah, every time I look at them, I think in the apocalypse, I would just be grateful for you. I would just eat you. Just eat you worm.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:33

You're not safe. Don't think you're safe. Um yeah. I uh my my my nemesis, or I guess nemesis, is that the plural? This um this summer were I had squash bugs. Oh, and then I had wait, some other squash motherfuckers. I don't remember. Oh, cucumber beetles, and then there was another, oh, and then powdery mildew. And I was just like, come on! Like fighting something constantly, it was really annoying. But you know, I was thinking like, my god, like imagine trying to do this while making enough food for a gazillion people. Oh, with flea beetles, those, oh yeah, don't don't get that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:14

I've never experienced now. I'm going to just because you've told me it's your fault. Next summer I'll be cursing you, Sarah. Don't get them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:21

Okay, well, just when you see the first little holes appear in your leaves, let me know. I'll tell you what to do because now I know. But it was like they got too far gone before I understood what was happening. So, because every time you garden, it's like, you know, you're like, I got the hang of this now. And then there's some new, some new pest that's like, ah, but here I am, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:41

This is my first year having tomato worms in forever. Those suckers are huge. We had some robins though that were living on the side of our house. So we Simon, um, Dan's brother who lives with us, he just like plucked a bunch of them off and then left them right by the robin and was like, here. Feed your babies enjoy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:59

I mean, sucks for the worms, but great for the robins. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:03

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:04

Yeah. So do you do you often go on like obscure knowledge uh rabbit holes where you just oh so many.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:12

So many.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:13

How much of your writing is spent just on Wikipedia? So much.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:17

This is this is why a first draft often takes me so long, is because not because I'm trying to get the like actual writing itself right, because I feel like all first drafts are horrible. You just gotta like do it. Even as I'm going through, I'm like, oh God, like, no, you're not gonna keep that. Like, no, that or that's not gonna happen anymore. But it's like, don't stop, just go. Um, but I do get kind of obsessive with the research because that does have some, like, has an impact on what I'm writing right then, draft or not. So I spend a lot of time, and it's been, you know, sometimes things are really hard to find, like stupid information that you're like, how, you know, like I wanted to know what happened to hotel door locks in one, and it was really for like like it was really for no scene, like nobody really needed to know this. So, you know, what happens when the power goes out? Well, they're on battery, they all run on batteries, but then those batteries die. So what happens when the batteries die? And I can't actually don't even remember the answer, but you could find out in a book, I think. But you know, it was a lot of well, like it took me, I don't know, a couple hours maybe, maybe more. I mean, just trying to figure it out. Um, I forget now we live in a world with uh chat GPT and all that shit that like will also lie to you, so you should you know double check.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:43

Yeah, but you know, what happens to hotel door locks and they're like they automatically unlock when the battery runs up. You're like, okay, I'll write that then. And then it's yeah, absolutely false.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:53

Somebody who installs battery locks for a living reads your book and is like, ah, you lost a reader.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:01

I think somebody said to me, they're real I'm I'm like, but you know, all the all the hotel door lock readers will be like, Well, that's not right. I'm like, because you know and I do this with everything, with everything. Like, I wanted to know how to like how they could cut a boat off a boat lift without it, you know, dying. Like, how did it work? Could they get it, or how could they get it back down? Um, because there's no power. So how does that work? And I found out, oh, well, then son, they have this Allen wrench, and the Allen wrench you can do this, and it will, you know, it's like it, but you have to they had to go find that thing and oh, they found it, you know. Um yeah, I I I get kind of obsessive, and probably more so than I should, because I think most people just be like, nah, but But that's what I love though. That's what I love about yeah, but but but I'm also I'm crazy and I and I know a lot of really ridiculous facts. And so when I'm reading a book and it's or listening to something or whatever, and it's wrong, or it's just I'm like, I'm like, no, but I could have told you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:04

You know, I've I've quit series because they got details wrong. Like little tiny things that no one cares about. Like, you know, I I I was I was reading one and um and they had they had this way to get out of a situation where they scared away the enemies with a bunch of laser pointers, which is a really smart idea. Um, and the guy was like, actually the the they come out and they explain, and they're like, We we were just using these laser levels. And the guy's like, I know, because real snipers use green lasers. And I'm like, what? Are you s no they don't. They don't use any lasers because lasers would draw a sniper. Yeah, it's like a gimmick for Hollywood. You don't really use them unless it's you know, on the unless you really like it for some reason.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:54

But yeah, uh what I what I love is I love all those little tiny details. I love I I once described this, I think to Leah. I think I described it to you, where it's like, um, these books are like you're you you you read a whole bunch of chapters about pickling and gardening, and you're like, I love this pickling and gardening book. And then zombies come and ruin it. And you forgot for a few chapters you forgot that there was an existential threat that was going to take away all of the pickles and vegetables.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:25

I think what's great about though is that like you've proven that that's a good story because that was always what annoyed me. Even with The Walking Dead, it's like always a big bad is the foreground and not the living and existing and surviving.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:35

Yeah. So I don't remember a ton of, I mean, I watched The Walking Dead. Um, I don't remember a ton of episodes, but I do remember that one of my most favorite episodes, and you guys know it like back and forth, so you'll probably know what I'm talking about, is when they're all just like wandering around, they're looking for water, they break up into a couple groups, and then people are having conversations, and you know, uh, and I was like, this is like that was like my books, you know, like like that. I loved that episode. And then I realized that was probably why, is because it was just like they're surviving. There's still this survival aspect. There's still a zombie here, a zombie there, we gotta knock that one out, you know, whatever. But they were just communicating, they were like working together. Um, so you had the tension, but you also just had this sort of like peacefulness along with that tension of them just trying to do this everyday thing instead of some you know giant catastrophe going on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:31

And you've had a few, a few big bads, but I I feel like they don't dominate the plot. Like they show up. Yeah. But then like they get dealt with.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:40

Yeah. And you know, I mean, there are big bads.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:45

Like, you know, in this world. And so sometimes you get some some readers who are like, oh, but I hate when everything's a battle. And I I I'm with them on that. Don't want everything to be everything's bad. Yeah. But but at the same time, it's kind of like, look around, y'all, you know, there are a lot of people who are, you know, no good and who do horrible things, which, you know, in the City series, I um that's a that's a big bad. Not in every, not at first, and not, you know, the whole thing, but there is a big bad. And um that sort of like culminates, yeah. Um and I'm so the kind of person who's like, but no, let's just all share. And as a community, we can get even better, you know. Um preach. So yeah, but I kept being like, but why? Why are they doing this? Why is he doing why would why would anybody do this? And I had to actually keep going and reading like about terrible things happening in the news and like in the past and stuff, because I'm like, no, people are actually this horrible and worse for reasons that you're like just because you didn't want to share? Like there was enough for everybody and you just were being a dick. Yeah. You know, like like why? And so I that's like that I find a big challenge with with the big baddies, you know, is is I don't understand why you would want to do that. But then I look around and even more so now, and I'm like, okay, yeah, they they really do, they just they just want you to die. Like they just don't give one buck. So um they want to win that. That might make my next baddie a little easier to write. So yeah.

unknown: 1:14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:30

In the same way, like uh, you know, unless there is the metaphorical zombie apocalypse or like zombies coming for you that were directed to you by the bad guy, which can happen, especially in this world right now.

SPEAKER_04: 1:14:41

Ice.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:42

Um anyways, or you know, I don't know, putting us all in a metaphorical castle and creating a siege so that people don't have food, uh, hoping that we're all gonna give in. I'm sorry, you should cut this. I'm just getting mad about our current reality. Um, but my point is is that like in between all of the horrible shit happening, there is still the I gotta do the laundry, I gotta feed myself and my family, I've gotta go to work, I gotta go um finish my gardening chores, whatever those are. And that's what's like, like you said, Dan, I think what's really beautiful about the way that you write is that that's and I think that's actually true for this time. Like every moment that we can carve out for ourselves that is about the simple things and about being in community with each other is like I think the antidote to to complete despair and just giving up.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:27

So that was my rant. You can cut it. No, I think it was.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:31

No, don't cut it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:32

I'm just really mad about the castle because I'm like, we're literally, you're literally he's outside of the metaphorical castle and you're starving people. Like that's what's happening. It's very upsetting. Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:43

You know I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:47

Something I wanted to ask before before we wrap this up, um, is that uh, you know, we live in a time where as especially as an indie author, um people have a hard time juggling the need to self-promote, to build their own online communities in order to sell their books. And uh what I learned about you is that you are social media allergic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:15

Um they don't do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:17

Yeah. Like I was able to contact you on Facebook, and even then it was like uh like once a week is when you would check it. And first of all, I admire that. Um in this time, I I went I actually the the Facebook account that I contacted you with, I have since deleted. I'm sorry. Um, I knew you were trying to avoid I'm trying to avoid everyone in the world. I hear you. Um so I've I've deleted a whole bunch of social media accounts, like old ones. Ones that I thought were um the companies were problematic. So I'm like, you're not getting my data, delete. Um yeah. But how do you think that authors need social media to market themselves?

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:05

So I think that now it it is really helpful. Um, you know, back when I started the whole algorithm, Amazon, like it was easy. No, okay, it wasn't easy. It was um easier, it was it was possible, let's say. It was easier to get your book um visible, have it be seen with the advent of advertising on all these, you know, Amazon, social media, all that. Um they've begun hiding a lot of your content because you're not paying for ads. Um the Amazon algorithm used to be like sell a bunch of books and you go up and now it doesn't happen as easily as it does, um, as it used to, or there's a glitch or doesn't show up for two days. Um, like with my last book, I think it was, or the time before, I don't know, one of them, you know, you really you count on that boost when you publish a new book that your readers are going to buy it and then it's gonna go up, and then all these other readers who don't know you buy it or say, Oh, who the hell's that? Oh, let me go check out their books, and then they start reading your other series. Um, and um, you know, a lot of that's changed, and like one this one time I'm speaking of the the whole ranking system just went kaput. And so um you had like there was like no rank, and your book, my book didn't go anywhere up, down, like it just it was like it didn't exist. Um, and then when the rankings came back, it was like it had never happened. Um, you know, and and I I keep hearing of that happening more and more often to people. Um, yeah. And I've tried ads, well, I haven't tried Facebook ads, but I've tried Amazon ads, and they just like I have zero luck with that. So um yeah, I think it's definitely an art. Like you have to get ads. It is an art and it's um yeah, so I think social media also helps. Um Elm, like you were saying, does find a lot of readers. Um, he posts on uh Instagram a lot and TikTok and has certainly found a lot of readers through just posting there, not advertising, just being um, you know, out there and having fun things and that kind of stuff. So, you know, every I don't know three three months, six months, I'm like, you're gonna do it. You're gonna make content, you're gonna make a video, you're gonna go out and say something. And um yeah, crippling anxiety. Not really good. I I I that's that's part of the reason why I don't go on social media, is because uh it gives me a lot of anxiety. So um I deal with um a lot of anxiety. Um so yeah, it just it stresses me out. Um, but I do think that it's helpful, especially for making cute content and you know, like quick, sort of fun content that will grab people's eyes. Like I think that that's I think it is helpful for authors if you can, you know, get yourself to do it. But what if we don't wanna, Sarah? Then don't let me know. So come come join my course. It's called No. I'm not gonna do that. And we just, you know, hang out, shoot the shit. And like, did you go on social media? Nope. Me neither. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:46

You know what? You could sell this, but you'd have to go into social media to sell your course. I know. And you'd have to be like, comment comment help for my free guide on how to say no to me on social media.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:58

Uh you know, uh I mean you you mentioned how it was like it was a different world when when you when you published uh your your first book. Um did it is that when your audience found you, or did it take a long time after that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:14

Um, no, you know, uh again, like some of it's luck. I think that I published at the right time. Um I also was on back in the there used to be a homesteading today. I don't know if you've ever heard of that website. Um, it was like forums, and they had a prepping um forum, and I just lurked on there all the time. I didn't post much. Um and so when I first released the first book, I did it free. I did like five free days, and then I went on there and I said, I've only posted here like twice, but I know you guys are always looking for something free to read, and um, you know, I am a liberal. So actually, and I I was I was like, well, you know, some of you might not. I was like, just so you know, I'm what I call might call a liberalitarian sort of, you know, because I'm not anti gun, I'm not like, you know, but I'm you know, absolutely social programs and that kind of thing. Anyway, off of all that. So I said, but here's a free book. Y'all like free things. And a lot of them went and downloaded it. And I got, they gave me, um, they didn't even know me. They were just like, woo-hoo, free book, you know. Uh and and then, you know, both there on the thread and then on Amazon, they left me reviews that they liked it. And I think that then that used to really boost you. So I had a free book, and your free books used to, I don't know if still then they impacted your ranking, but it still got you seen. And um, and then I started getting reviews quickly. And so to rack up like, I don't know, say 50 reviews in the first like week of being completely unknown back then was really good. And then any, and then Amazon started promoting my book, like algorithm-wise. And so I got a good bit of readers. Like I went from, you know, like I mean, not rich, still not rich, not even close, but I went from like I can pay some bills, you know, right away. And that was really, really lucky. I think that I just happened to release the book for free at a time when it was helpful to do that, and got a lot of reviews fast because people were wanted to be nice to me, except for the one motherfucker who said that they were mad because there was a gay person in it, and you can bite me, and I don't care. So um I think that was my second review was someone being like, like, authors, we're tired of the gay people, or I don't know. And I was like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:53

At the time when there was what, like one or two books with any of my representations. The gay agenda, though.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:00

Yeah. Oh my god. Oh, so some of my favorite, I have two favorite um reviews, and um, I can't think of what they are off the top of my head, but I have them on my phone. One says, I'm gonna have to find them while we talk. Um but yeah, so I think that that really helped in terms of the the time period when I released and how I released. I think and I think I was I was lucky. You know, I think that had a lot to do with it. Of course, you know, having a well-written book or a story that people like is going to keep people coming, but I also think that there are plenty of books that should be seen. I'm sure because I haven't seen them because they're hiding, because you know, I'm not being shown them, um, that deserve to be read.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:47

So that's very humble of you, and I think it is some combination of those two things. Because, for example, like we found out about you not from any algorithm, but from Elm's book.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:58

Like that you're mentioned in Elm's book. That's how we found out and binged everything that there was.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:04

I was I literally Googled you while reading that book and just being like, is this a real? Is this real? Like, I thought it was something in fictional inside of Elm's universe. So I'm like, whoa, this is a real person.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:18

That's really funny. Yes. I am. I'm a real person.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:22

So, come on, picture, we can do it. Okay. Full of profanity and gay worship. Oh, wow. Did you feel so proud? We wanted a fun, exciting book to read on as a family on a road trip. This definitely does not qualify. So that that was the little that was the that was underneath that. Um book is about lesbian teens. Not to mention everyone else is gay or asexual or neurodivergent. My goodness.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:06

Oh, neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:09

You know what I find so hilarious about that is that I'm pretty sure I've never had anybody labeled as neurodivergent, like you know, official, like I've been diagnosed, but I'm ADHD.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:25

No.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:28

And people have actually asked me repeatedly since I wrote Rose, who's a lot, I mean, I'm a lot like a lot of characters, but a lot of the Rose anxiety and like blah blah is like me. And um And they're like, is Rose like on the spectrum or does she have ADHD or something? Like, oh god, I've shown them my brain. Yes, like, uh-oh, the evidence is stacking up. Yeah, she's not diagnosed. I wasn't diagnosed for a million years, like until like in my 40s. Um, you know, I was just space cadet kid. I could hyper focus on reading. Um, and you can get away with a lot. You can do those two things and remember stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:10

Yeah. Read Wikipedias about acorns and how to leech out the tannins.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:15

Yeah. So um, but so I guess this person surmised that people are neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:22

And was upset about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:24

And they didn't like it, yes, along with lesbian teens. And yeah. So gay worship.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:29

I mean, honestly, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:31

I I love that. I just I if I I think I should just make it my tagline.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:36

You should because I would if I didn't know you and I saw that as like a quote for I would be like, I'm reading this. Gay worship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:43

Full of profanity and gay worship. I mean, like it's like you got me. I'm hooked around.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:49

That's that's a little blurb that's on the cover.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:51

Yeah, right. I really should.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:55

Um thank thank you so much for being our our guest.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:59

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:01

Little podcast. You can come be a guest anytime you want.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:04

All right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:04

Well I have so many questions here that I didn't even get to.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:07

And also do it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:09

Oh man, uh, I feel like we could do a whole question about your book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:13

Yeah. We should do a writing conversation with a few people. Yeah, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:17

Oh, that'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:18

Also, I feel like we could just do a whole episode just about um gear watching because we had uh we had a conversation about Jericho and candles. Which actually I'm gonna ask one more question. How many candles is appropriate in the apocalypse?

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:36

Fucking two at most. Two at most.

unknown: 1:28:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:41

I'm glad that we got that out of the way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:43

If it's a big, big room, or you know, you got people in different sections. Like everybody can have a candle, like you know, in a group.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:48

Like one candle per person. No, that's too many. I heard one candle per group. Per group.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:54

But everybody has a candle. If you're on your own though, you get a candle. I don't know. If you're reading, you might need to have your own candle next to you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:00

Bring your own candle, is what I've seen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:03

Like people, we don't have that many candles. You can't put 40 on the mantle and then have a conversation 20 feet away from them and with more candles. Yeah, yeah. What are we doing out here?

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:13

Rendering tallow?

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:14

Yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:15

We don't have time for that. We don't have candles for that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:19

Yeah, no, it's like uh yeah. And then there's one scene in Jericho because my dad and I, as we said, we I was we were jeer watching it, and uh well, we we were just watching it, but then it became a jeer watch. And at one point, there's one point and I goes into the police station, it was one of the later episodes, and the lights are on and they still have candles. And there's a lamp on.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:40

There's a lamp, and they got the lights on and they're burning candles. These people are wasteful.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:45

Fuck, y'all. Like, stop it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:47

This is exactly my point, though. I feel like we could have a whole episode just pick pick a series, geer watch it, and have nothing but notes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:57

And you you can actually give me episodes of The Walking Dead to watch that I don't remember particulars, and we could discuss things that drove you crazy in those because there were things that drove me crazy. Like quickly when they were bringing the fucking wagon that weighs nine million pounds down the stairs, and we're like, you know what? Instead of lowering it, instead of putting it over thing, let's put it on the glass fucking floor. Like, I saw that coming, and I said, please tell me they're gonna lay down some wood, they're gonna do something. No, no, of course not. And then yeah. So things like that. Like I love it. And of course, those are crazy, you know, but I believe that was season eleven.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:40

And season eleven, we have we've written it off. We did it. We haven't done any episodes about The Walking Dead other than us talking about season eleven because it was We committed to rewatching the entire thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:53

I'd never watched season eleven. And I don't think you had either. We only watched up to season 10. It was brand new at the time. And we were like, we're gonna do a whole series in The Walking Dead, and then we only did one episode being very upset about season 11. And we were like, I have to like not think about this for a while. So yes, we could do an earlier season of or episode and just get you back in.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:11

Yeah. And I love Negan. I'm one of those people.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:14

I also love Negan, but only upon second watching.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:17

Reformed Negan, but even I mean, he's even kind of charming me. He's an asshole. But like, but even I don't like men like that. But yeah, maybe I'd like Negan. I don't know. But when he's reformed, I was just like, this is my jam. Like when you have somebody who's he redeemed himself, he did, and he's real, and he but he's still like he was an irredeemable jerk.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:38

Then he had a crisis of conscience and became a redeemable character.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:43

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:44

Showed growth.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:45

It was awesome. That was one thing they did right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:48

And he got in touch with his feelings, and now Sarah loves him.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:52

I do.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:53

I do.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:55

Well, thanks everybody for joining this episode of the Zombie Book Club. You can support us by leaving a rating or a review. We like those five stars, please.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:05

Five stars.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:06

We need those stars.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:07

We will take no less.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:08

Yeah. Same with Sarah's book. Leave five stars, no less. Even if you're like five stars should be rare. Well, Sarah's books are rare and they deserve five stars. So there, take that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:18

Especially if you like profanity and gay worship.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:20

Yeah. I think our audience loves both those things. I think so too. You know our audience. Uh you can also send us a voicemail. Up to three minutes at 614-699-0000030s and a six. Not as many as I said. Um It's in the show notes. It's in the show notes. You can sign up for our newsletter. You can follow us on Instagram at ZombieBook Club Podcast or join us on Discord. All of the things are in the description. Why don't I just say that at the beginning and we could skip this whole thing?

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:49

We could change everything. But for now, Sarah is my new bestie because you have agreed to sing with me, our outro that Dan Dan will jeer while we do it, just to warn you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:01

It causes me great pain.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:02

Might sound crazy, but the end is not. Baby bye bye bye. Don't talk! Oh boy. One day I'm gonna mash all of those up together into a wonderful compilation. Thank you so much, Sarah. That made my oh boy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:21

That was that was great.