Zombie Book Club

'The Dead Weight: Resistance' with special guest Jo Salazar | Zombie Book Club Ep 111

• Zombie Book Club • Season 3 • Episode 111

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Join us as we dive into “The Dead‑Weight Resistance” with returning guest Jo Salazar, author of The Dead Weight and its thrilling sequel. We explore Quinn’s journey in post-apocalyptic St. Louis—her fight for healthcare, her emotional trauma, and the chance to redefine herself when no one knows her past. Jo shares how stepping away from social work into full-time writing has changed her life, and what drew her to themes of identity and moral complexity in the zombie genre.

This episode is packed with insights into character building, feminist storytelling, and indie publishing. We also get juicy details on new characters like Archer, Hira, and Amy, and updates on The Dead Weight book 3. Whether you love gritty apocalypse stories or smart, morally gray protagonists, this chat with Jo is a must-listen.



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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Zombie Boat Club, the only boat club where the book is a boat and that boat has room for four people. Just kidding, you have to kick someone out. I'm Dan, and when I'm not rowing a boat through the river of life deciding who lives and who dies, I'm writing a book about the zombie apocalypse and after reading the Deadweight Resistance I realize I need to change a character's name so it doesn't seem like I'm copying Joe, which name I'll never tell. Oh no, it's already been fixed.

Speaker 2:

control f replace all should have kept it the same amy I'm leah.

Speaker 2:

today we're talking with one of our absolute most favorite humans, joe salazar, author of the deadweight and its just releasedreleased sequel, the Deadweight Resistance. Joe might say she hates fun, but don't be fooled she's one of the most fun people we know, especially in real life, like when we spent time together at Living Dead Weekend. She grew up in the river bottoms of West Central Illinois and now lives in Chicago with her husband Uli also an excellent human and our goddaughter dog Data. Her zombie obsession began young, after Night of the Living Dead, left her too scared to sleep alone for weeks. Jo is a natural community builder and the kind of person you'd want in your corner in regular life, but even more so in the apocalypse. She's been on the show three times this year, including today, because she is someone that we, and everyone who knows her, cannot get enough of. We are so thrilled to have you back on the Joe Show.

Speaker 1:

I'm not even going to say that Welcome to the Joe Show. This is Welcome Zombie Book Club to the Joe.

Speaker 2:

Show Welcome Joe. How are you doing today?

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I am awesome. I'm thrilled to be here. This is going to be fun. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so nice. We've been talking lots on the internets with typings, with words, but I haven't seen your face in a while and it's just very nice.

Speaker 3:

It has been a minute.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. I want to get something out of the way right away, something very serious, an accusation even.

Speaker 2:

I don't know where this is going, Joe.

Speaker 1:

Joe, we saw at Living Dead Weekend that you are the owner of a wagon.

Speaker 3:

I do drag a wagon.

Speaker 1:

And I was reading your new book and Quinn, resident psychopath, also owns a wagon. Is it the same wagon?

Speaker 3:

I'll never tell. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. It's not the same wagon, Dan. I am not the same as Quinn. Quinn and I are not the same person. I promise different wagon.

Speaker 1:

All right. Well, I'm still skeptical different person, different wagon.

Speaker 2:

In fact, I think that the wagon that you got for Living Dead Weekend came after probably you wrote about Quinn's wagon. That is also true. Yes, maybe inspired a little bit. Let's jump into our rapid fire questions for you. Some of these might be familiar, but the first one was a twist. I'm a little nervous. You have room for five people in a canoe. Who would Data pick, data the dog to go into the canoe with her?

Speaker 3:

Oh Data, she can't pick her humans, she can't pick me. She can pick whoever she wants and her father.

Speaker 1:

Anyone. Everyone that she likes is in a line, in a lineup.

Speaker 2:

There's godparents to take care of. Here too, data, but it's Data's choice. I won't be offended.

Speaker 1:

There are no balls available, so you cannot manipulate Data's vote.

Speaker 3:

Okay, wait, you said five, yeah, okay, she's going to pick me. She's going to pick her father, uli. She's going to pick her godparents, leah and Dan, because of the special ball that you purchased for her and sent to her. She knows where it came from, she understands and she knows that she knows who loves her. Her fifth person let me think about this for a second. We have a neighbor. About this for a second. We have a neighbor, and she is, I think, about 10 years old. Her name is Sophia, and Data is obsessed with Sophia. Every time she comes out of the house, she runs over to the fence. Once belly rubs through the fence, I think she would probably pick Sophia, that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

I have terrible news.

Speaker 2:

Oh see, I knew this was coming.

Speaker 1:

Go on. There's not room for five people in the canoe. Who does data leave behind to die you?

Speaker 2:

can't pick.

Speaker 1:

Sophia. I can't pick Sophia, you can I mean you?

Speaker 2:

could.

Speaker 3:

Oh no, do you know what I think would happen? You can call me cheating, whatever I think data would jump out of the canoe herself and swim alongside, because she loves the water. In fact, today later we are going to the dog beach in Chicago and she's going to go swim in the lake. So I think she would jump out of the canoe and let us humans stay inside and happily swim along.

Speaker 2:

I believe that she's a loyal pup. The canoe was a death trap all along.

Speaker 1:

Everyone was doomed to die, and Data's now the only survivor.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I want to go to the dog beach.

Speaker 1:

That sounds so fun, yeah let's go to the dog beach.

Speaker 3:

It's a lovely, magical place Chicago has everything that we love apparently.

Speaker 2:

Dog beaches. Joe Uli Data Pizza. What was that place where you got us cake from? That's the list. Joe Uli Data Pizza. What was that place? Where you got us cake from.

Speaker 3:

That's the list Pie Pie my Darling. Pie Pie, my Darling. Yeah, we do have it all here, except for the two of you. Hint, hint. You could come too we will visit, we'll visit.

Speaker 1:

Can we convince all of the good things about Chicago to come and be within walking distance of our house?

Speaker 3:

listen, you could transport things from chicago to another place. But chicago is a vibe and if you live here you know like it's just, it's magic. You have to be here.

Speaker 1:

The only time I was in chicago, I went to a truck stop that had a sabaro's and that sabaro's gave me pizza that made me very sick is that the vibe?

Speaker 3:

there is that. Wait, you must have been at the suburbs it was going through some it was.

Speaker 2:

It was some pretty dense area I couldn't tell you it's a big place, it's a place I'd rather not go to be perfectly honest.

Speaker 1:

Next question yes, your family goes out to dinner, very important dinner, like some kind of event but you don't know what that event is because they didn't invite you. They invited everybody else. They even invited Data. Can you believe that?

Speaker 2:

Data is there. I think you just skewed the answer with saying that, okay, maybe Data's not there, but the rest of your data is there.

Speaker 1:

I think you just skewed the answer with saying that, okay, maybe data's not there, but the rest of your family is there. Um, the zombie apocalypse breaks out. It's bad, you're somewhere else, your family's all like downtown or wherever they would go to celebrate whatever great thing that they didn't invite you to do you still. Do you save them? Do you go to them, or what's your plan? Are they dead weight?

Speaker 3:

I could not help but save them. Even that's the thing about our family like we can be really mad at each other for a really long time and, when it comes down to it, like we're gonna be there for each other one of these days, one of us is gonna call the other and just act like nothing ever happened, and so I'll be there if the zombie apocalypse breaks out. Even if they don't like me, in that moment I'm coming for them.

Speaker 2:

I'm picking the best montage of you with the machete and data helping out with uli too, and like an that I'll be their song playing in the background that.

Speaker 3:

That sounds magical. I love that.

Speaker 2:

This one might also be familiar. It's from a friend of yours. You're left with two children under the age of five that aren't yours. In the zombie apocalypse. What do you do?

Speaker 3:

I read that book. I loved that book. I imagined myself in that scenario. Man, I'm going to get canceled for this. I don't have children for a reason. I love other people's kids. That's fine. You can have kids. I don't want them and I didn't want those kids in this hypothetical scenario, and I'm going to give them to somebody else. I think that's the most caring thing you can do yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna kill them, it's just they can I.

Speaker 1:

I will entrust their safety to at what point along the line because I mean, we're two books into her series and, like it's still going, she could still make that choice. No, like when. When do you make the choice? Is it the first people you meet? Do you make the choice? Is it the first people you meet? Do you vet people before you find the right parents to pawn these children off on?

Speaker 3:

I would like to say that I wouldn't be very careful about choosing their next home, but I fear that in the moment I would panic and just be like here you are alive. Take these children and meet me, You're alive.

Speaker 1:

You qualify.

Speaker 2:

I resonate with this. Yeah, I think the longer that it's kind of like anything the longer I'd have them in my care, the more I'd get attached, and then I'd be like resentful that I was attached to somebody who chose to be child free.

Speaker 1:

So I would do it as soon as possible yeah before. They're like mama. They're like Mama Leah and Joe, because you're in the apocalypse together at this point. You're both co-parenting Amazing. They're like we love you. You took the place of our mother now and you're like I'm still looking for somebody. I don't want this role.

Speaker 3:

No, because I know myself. I have fostered quote unquote, a dog before and that dog became my dog.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, I know that if they stuck around too long I would get in my feelings about it yeah, and then I would find myself doing all the things my parents did that I promised myself I would never do by not having children, and it would be very. It would be like a whole level of apocalypse on top of the apocalypse.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, I actually made a video about Courtney's book Babysitter of the Apocalypse and how this is the real life worst nightmare scenario that I could possibly be in is being dropped into that book. Apocalyptic, truly, yeah truly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, uh. You are in elementary school. Um, english classes. It would be um. I don't remember english class in elementary school. Did we just like read picture books school? We were in small schools. We did letters. That's what we did. Anyways, you're in english class in elementary school. Zombie apocalypse breaks out, like you're seeing it outside and it's going to come inside.

Speaker 2:

What are you going to do?

Speaker 1:

What's your plan as an elementary school student?

Speaker 3:

I'm going to get the school locked down to the best of my ability, probably somewhere near the cafeteria, and wait it out.

Speaker 2:

That is my plan 13-year-old Joe would have that plan. Yes, that's impressive. Wait it out.

Speaker 3:

Well, I think I don't remember being 13. Do I remember being 13? I guess that's like seventh grade, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it would have to be 12 or under to be in elementary school.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. If I was 12-year-old me, maybe I would have just run home. I don't know, but I feel like the smartest, looking back, the smartest thing, is to just like shelter in place, right Like the school has everything you need. Yeah, I would think Got the cafeteria.

Speaker 1:

I have a hard time imagining what school is like now that there's active shooter drills. Kids know how to take their belt and wrap it around, the little wingy ding on the door Wingy ding, yeah, the thing that makes the door close slower and you can wrap it around that so people can't come in and stuff like that. I'm thinking about my elementary school. The cafeteria had a wall of glass windows on one side and I'm like that feels like a bad idea. Maybe the gym, but the gym doesn't have any food, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You just maybe realize that children are more prepared for the zombie apocalypse than ever in a school setting, specifically because of all the horrifying lockdown drills they have to do. That's sad, but also, I guess, a strange silver lining. If there is an actual apocalypse, yeah, or a shooting, more importantly, well, that was dark. Joe, how would you describe the last year of your life since releasing the Dead Weight, your debut novel?

Speaker 3:

Oh, my gosh, the last year has been like. I could not have imagined it in my wildest dreams Like the last time, or I guess, the first time we talked. You guys, the rapid fire question for me was would you choose your 40 hour work week or do you enter the zombie apocalypse full time by writing about it? And I, I did, I did it, I. I left my 40 hour work week to just kick it into high gear and focus on making the dead weight a thing. And so I have spent the last year going to libraries and doing signings and visiting schools and being on podcasts and just doing everything I can to make this successful, while also writing the second and third book. So it has been a dream come true. It's been the best year of my life, hands down, wow.

Speaker 2:

Wow, like best and scariest, or just like what's been the best and the worst Highlight reel, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, I guess I need to be sensitive to the fact that there are horrors that persist in real life this year, so we'll be sensitive to that. But, yes, this has been the best year of my life and I think one of the high points for me, honestly, like no smoke, was being at Living Dead Weekend and being your roommate for four days and getting able to meet so many other zombie authors and zombie creators and filmmakers and just be in the mix with people who get it. This community is unlike any other that I have been a part of and that, to me, has just been the experience of a lifetime. And there have been low points. Course it's. It's hard being an author and being your own marketer and getting the the courage to talk about your work and not cringe at yourself while you do it like that. It's hard, but it's also something that has really pushed me in a way that I I didn't expect to be pushed and I think I've I've grown a lot from it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is a weird balance that we have to play now, where it's like am I allowed to enjoy life when so much horrible is happening? And that's a hard thing to balance. And I feel that because I feel like at the very beginning I mean not that there ever was a beginning, it's just continued, but but like I had a hard time being able to take myself seriously and actually like get writing done, because I'm like, well, look at what's going on, I've got a, I've got to run out there and I don't know, do something yeah, it's hard, but we have to balance.

Speaker 2:

Like I think it's okay to be happy, like I've also had a really, really good year, joe. So I I feel that, and a big part of it for me, too, is the community, and like the fact that it was almost a year to the day, as you pointed out, that we were recording together the first time, and now you're like such an important part of my life and so are the others that are part of our community. Um, I mean, what's the point of pushing forward if we don't have ways that we can find joy and we're not always this joyful like you don't always get the first year of jumping into the zombie apocalypse head first, like you did and flying I don't know if that metaphor works, but we're gonna go with it.

Speaker 2:

Now there's a supernatural zombie apocalypse where joe can fly um, that's not gonna be every year, right like there could be this terrible shit happening externally, as well as being the person who's personally a victim of it, or just, uh, going through your own personal life, shit. So we got to celebrate while we can, and I'm glad this is a year that you can celebrate yeah, yeah, it's like you said it's.

Speaker 3:

it's tough to see and experience what's happening, but if we can't find joy somewhere, I think we'll all crumble. So that's where my head's at.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and not only are you having joy, but I think you've given a lot of people joy with your stories. We got a chance to read the Deadweight Resistance in advance, lucky us. I feel so lucky and I was obsessed for the entire time I read it. I had to force myself to put the book down and work. As you know, because I also live, tweeted you basically my reactions. I forget where I was going.

Speaker 1:

How cool we are that we got early access to the book.

Speaker 2:

Start an awesome Zany Book Club podcast podcast. You too will get advanced reader copies I can't promise that for joe joe's books, but do you think that you are a different person now, having like left the the cage of the 40-hour work week and joined into this world of being like a full-time author?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's been such a strange experience for me because I think I have spent my entire adult life with my identity very entwined in my work and my job and my career. Like I mentioned, I don't have kids. All I have done is focus on work and in my early career as a social worker I've really internalized that part of myself, like I am a helper, I am a social worker, this is what I do. I care for others and as my career kind of progressed into the field of healthcare and patient experience. Again, you know, it's just on a different level. I'm here to care for people and to step away from that and step away from that part of my identity and just reset my mind and how I think about work and time and who I am as a person. And I don't know that I have the words to really express all of that yet, but it's been strange, it's been a big shift strange.

Speaker 1:

It's a big shift. I I can, I can relate, because every every year my work ends, um, right before thanksgiving. Um, and my first year that I did that, I remember having like a mini crisis, that I wasn't like having a breakdown or anything, but I'm just at work like what guys, what do I, what do I do when we're not doing this anymore? And they're like I don't know, file for unemployment because, like, that's the plan, you file for unemployment and then you go back to work when you, when they ask you to, and, and at first I'm just like I don't, I don't know who I am, without dedicating 100% of myself to grinding and digging dirt and pulling stumps and banging on metal and shit.

Speaker 1:

And, uh, I adapted pretty quickly once, once the I had a few, few days of of being off, I'm like, okay, I feel better now, um, but also I knew that I was going back. I feel better now, but also I knew that I was going back. So I knew that I didn't have to fully give up that part of that identity. And one day I'm going to give up all of it totally and say, hey, I'm just writing a book now and I'm going to be just like Joe.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what would Joe?

Speaker 1:

do? I love that.

Speaker 2:

So what would Keisha do, which we will talk about? What would?

Speaker 3:

Keisha do from book one.

Speaker 2:

I love that. So what would Keisha do, which we will talk about? What would Keisha do from book one? I think what's amazing is that, like this idea of doing something that was in some ways, first and foremost for you to like write a story, to be a storyteller, actually gives joy and does something for the rest of the world. That's what I was trying to say, that I got distracted by when I was talking about how much I love your latest book is.

Speaker 2:

I really do believe and this is evidence that when you put your heart into something that matters a lot to you, the people who need it will find it and it will make a difference in their lives. And it doesn't always have to be like the obvious caretaking role and support role that you've played in social work, which I have no doubt that you have helped many, many people in that space, but you're still a helper. There's no question. This most recent book had me rethinking everything I thought I knew about, what I thought should or shouldn't be happening in the apocalypse, and what community really meant, and how do you decide who you belong to. There's just so much that was very real, even if it's in a fictional setting. So I think that that point of view and being able to share it from that perspective of zombie apocalypse really does something unique, feeds a part of my soul that nothing else does.

Speaker 3:

So I think that that point of view and being able to share it from that perspective of zombie apocalypse really does something unique, feeds a part of my soul that nothing else does. So I appreciate you for that would feel. I really enjoy causing people to empathize with something that they didn't think they would empathize with, or trying to share a new perspective that feels a little bit uncomfortable to try on. It's one of my favorite things about writing stories and I'm glad that you felt that, even if it was a little uncomfortable, I'm sorry, but I'm glad that it came through that way.

Speaker 2:

That's what made it great, though, is that I was uncomfortable. I'm like who am I? What do I really think? What are my values? I'm not sure anymore. It gave me a lot of things to think about. So for those who have some sense of the dead weight and now they're dying to get their hands on the dead weight resistance, tell us a little bit about what it's sorry. Tell us a little bit about what it is about. Why can't I say it speak, you know what? Leave it like that.

Speaker 3:

Joe, what's your?

Speaker 2:

book about.

Speaker 3:

What's the book about? Ok, so if you have already read book one, great proceed. If you have not read book one yet, we might be spoiling a few things in the next few lines. So when book one ends, we find Quinn alone. She is out on the river still. She um really emotionally devastated and she is also injured. And this is all first chapter stuff, so it's not too much of a spoiler. It's also on the back of the book, so you know it's fine it's what one years off for the most part.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like it's the day after, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

book two is the morning after. Yeah, one ends, so it's immediate. So she wakes up, she's injured, she is emotionally devastated by what has just happened and she needs help. She needs companionship, she needs medical assistance, and if she doesn't get it, there's a very real possibility that her leg could become infected and she could die. So she is forced to go downtown, st Louis, about a square mile of the city, and someone has to protect those walls. There are people who we call rovers, who are assigned to protect those walls, and then people who are either in debt or have committed a crime or broken the rules in some way, who are sentenced to serve on a rover squad. When Quinn arrives in New City, she needs medical help. She can't pay for it, so she becomes one of those people who serve on a rover squad and to pay back her debt, and so that's where we find her, in what we call the pit, a terrible place.

Speaker 2:

For some, for some.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, unless you like that sort of thing.

Speaker 3:

Unless you're into it.

Speaker 1:

But who could possibly like such a place?

Speaker 2:

Starts with a let's do a wordle. I think Quinn is five letters. Q-u-i-n-n. Quinn could be a wordle answer. Think quinn is five letter. Q u I n n.

Speaker 1:

Quinn could be a wordle answer yeah, it's gonna be my starter word I don't think that's a very helpful starter word q doesn't come up very often, maybe maybe the worst starter word you're repeating letters.

Speaker 2:

You've got a q got two vowels, though, and you and I. You need an e, an, a. Sorry, I have strong opinions about a first word, only word, but that is not what we're here for um canoe, canoe yeah what's your first wordle word, joe?

Speaker 3:

it changes every day.

Speaker 1:

I always choose a different one what I absolutely, what I absolutely loved about Resistance no spoilers is that when I came into the book, I thought I knew who Quinn was and I had expectations going forward and I'm like, okay, you know, let's see what happens this time. You know I had expectations and then Quinn shifted I wouldn't say blew away my expectations, but shifted them enough that I was just like that was different.

Speaker 3:

I think your observation, dan.

Speaker 3:

Again, this is really something that I hoped readers would experience when I was writing this, because I think the dead weight is about a lot of things, but as I'm writing it, it's very much about identity and how you see yourself and how other people see you and how that impacts the choices that you make.

Speaker 3:

And I think Quinn is no different in that experience. In book one she has been told who she is and she has received her identity from other people through the way that they have interacted with her in the court system her foster parents, the staff at the Pegasus Center. She's read her own chart, secretly, right, and so she knows what people believe she is and she has internalized that and owned it. When she leaves the Pegasus Center and we're moving into book two territory here when she leaves the Pegasus Center and there is no longer anyone who knows who she is no one who can look up her chart, no one who can look up her chart, no one who can find her in some database somewhere and figure out who she is she has a chance to completely start over and form her own identity. And that is, I think, the core of the deadweight. Resistance is we get to watch someone figure out who they are in the zombie apocalypse?

Speaker 2:

The best place to find out who you are. I remember you saying in our first interview that people are more than their diagnosis and as a social worker who's worked in residential facilities, like where Quinn starts out in the Pegasus Center you've had firsthand experience with people with pretty severe diagnoses and I think this was the book that I really got that Even in the first book there was still some degree of labeling with Quinn. I think that's kind of what you were referring to, dan, in my brain. And what the second book did for me was realize like Quinn is a Quinn as a full, full person, as a person who has the capacity to actually change Maybe not completely like there's some core programming um, we all have our core program, yeah that's true and that's a choice right, but I guess even

Speaker 2:

more. Maybe that's what it is, that she's a person with agency. Yeah, um, and that was really, really powerful, because one of the brilliant things about your second book is that you have us questioning or at least I'll say my experience there. There's choices Quinn has to make about who she is and who she wants to be like, where she wants to be in community, and the answer that I would typically assume I would want someone to go towards I didn't know if that was right for Quinn. I really didn't. I couldn't figure out what was the right path for her, and you really had us on that razor edge pretty much the whole time, which was amazing. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3:

I'm glad that that was your experience in the book. That was what I was trying to do. It's always nice when your writing has the impact you intend, and sometimes it does not, but it's really. This is the first time that I'm having the opportunity to hear other people react, and so this is a fun experience for me. Thank you for this. What an honor for us.

Speaker 2:

When did you realize that the story could not stop at book one?

Speaker 3:

when we talked the first time, you asked me is there going to be a book too? And I think my answer was something along the lines of like well, if the world wants it, and um, I knew that there was more to this story. I, I knew that there was more that I wanted to tell Um, and I I learned from you know, book talk and bookstagram, like people did want more and um, and that's kind of the moment where I was like all right, I'll do it. And um, I have been accused of, I've been accused of leaving the dead weight on a cliffhanger. I deny this with my whole soul. I I think of a cliffhanger, as you know. Like the joker has batman in the dungeon and like, will he survive? Tune in for next week, like that's not what I did.

Speaker 2:

That's not what I did.

Speaker 1:

That's not what you did, I agree, time same, quinn I 100.

Speaker 2:

I'll stand behind you on that, joe. I don't think it was a cliffhanger, but I think people thought of it that way because they're desperate to know what she was going to do next.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

But I love that people wanted more. I love that people wanted to find out what happened next. And you know I had so much fun writing book two. I had planned to stop at book two it was going to be a duology and then our mutual friend, courtney Constantine, who's written a million fantastic zombie books, she was, like you know, readers really do like to follow you on that journey and like, if you can write more, you should write more. And I was like, could I write more? And then, when I came close to finishing book two, I was thinking there is a third act for Quinn, there is another evolution of her identity that we really have to get to in order to put this story to a really satisfying ending for the reader. And so you're hearing it here first, maybe, for there's going to be a book three and it's coming soon.

Speaker 2:

How soon is soon, Because I need it now. Joe, no pressure.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So I think I am a few days away from finishing draft one, and it's bad, it's not, it's, it's not good. I have to fix a hundred things, but I think I might be close to getting that first draft at least out of the way so that I can start to make it better.

Speaker 1:

that's incredible how bad is bad when you have your first draft asking for a friend?

Speaker 3:

I wouldn't show it to anyone for any amount of dollars. Oh, I feel that it's really embarrassing and I'll have to fix it is it?

Speaker 1:

is it kind of sound like? And then, uh, quinn went into a room and there was a zombie and quinn sliced the zombie the end of this chapter, and then we move.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's just chapter three really terrible dialogue and um, it's. Yeah, there's so much work to be done, but getting that first draft out is always the hardest part for me, and my favorite part of writing is probably the third and fourth draft. I love that editing, that deep editing process. I hate putting the first draft together. It's so hard for me.

Speaker 2:

Did you know when you wrote book two or when you finished book one? People are asking for book two. Did you have an idea of what it was going to be, and then same with book three, or does it come to you like over time as you're writing?

Speaker 3:

It comes to me over time. I knew that Quinn had to end up in St Louis for book two because that's where the river goes and no choice Geography. So I knew where she was going and I knew that if she was going to a big city there would inevitably be some kind of a society that was left over, and I imagined what that could be like. I did not know how the book would end until I got to the end. I didn't know a lot of the finer details that would happen. That all get smoothed out in drafts. You know three, four, five, 27. So I never know how it's going to go. I pants the whole thing. I can't do an outline to save my life. So it's just as much a surprise to me as it is to you guys.

Speaker 2:

So you were stressing yourself out in the will, she won't. She questions.

Speaker 3:

Oh, always, always. And there's a will they won't they in book one. There is also a little bit of a will they won't they in in book two. I wonder how people will feel about that.

Speaker 2:

I'm I'm anxious to hear I can tell you how I feel about it offline.

Speaker 1:

I can't say it too many things I was satisfied. I feel like I feel like quinn is full of will. She won't. She questions at all times. Yeah, about a About a various number of things, not just romance. Yes, her decisions tend to come as a complete shock, like if you're not paying attention from line to line, you might miss it and be like wait, what just happened? I have to go back a paragraph.

Speaker 3:

Yes, she is. On the surface. Quinn is a very impulsive character who seems to just go off. But one of the things that I love about Quinn and this is true from book one to book two and will be true in book three Quinn will always tell you exactly who she is. Tell you exactly who she is, and you might be surprised when she does it, but if you look back, she has laid the groundwork and told you exactly what will happen.

Speaker 2:

It's just not maybe what we would expect. I think that's very clear and that was. I think you mentioned this earlier. One of the things that I loved about the book is just seeing people's projections onto her of who they wanted her to be. Some of them. So I'm like like are you, do you see who's in front of you? Like you are totally deluded.

Speaker 2:

Um on many sides, yeah, like not just I can't say much more than that, but just many people had decided who quinn was and treated her accordingly, and you could see how frustrating that was. And having an opportunity like this was her opportunity for a new start. And yet it wasn't, because they were just filtering other things on top of her, like she's a young teenage girl. There's all these assumptions there. Poor Quinn, poor, fragile Quinn.

Speaker 1:

I am so sorry she had to go through so many things and do all the things that she had to do. That must've been really hard for her.

Speaker 3:

Oh, the empathy that you have for Quinn is. I'm loving this. I can't tell if you're joking or not, Dan.

Speaker 1:

I mean, she is a fellow wagon dragger, so I'm on her team as somebody who owns a wagon.

Speaker 3:

I love that.

Speaker 1:

The dragon wagons.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to make new merch with wagons.

Speaker 1:

The New City Dragon Wagon Draggers.

Speaker 3:

New City Wagon Drag. I love that. I would also wear a merch. I'm going to make it just so I can wear it, and I'll send one to you.

Speaker 1:

There are a few wagon draggers in New City. There's one near the end, not a spoiler. I mean it is for those who know. Yeah, if you know, you know.

Speaker 3:

I think we've established that if you have not read book one, you should not be listening to this conversation, because there will be book one spoilers. There have to be. But, um, I mean, everyone from book one is gone, um, except we do have one little cameo I really hope that that person shows up again.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you want to talk about it, joe and will they have a wagon?

Speaker 3:

See, I don't even know they might. They might come back, we'll see.

Speaker 2:

Who are some of the new characters you're most excited about people meeting in book two?

Speaker 3:

Yes, and almost all of the characters are new this time. So I think my favorite characters that you will get to meet are Archer and Hera, and both of them are rovers. And the other character that I'm really excited for people to meet is Amy, who is a fellow debtor, and she is with Quinn in the pit and becomes one of her closest allies. So I think those are the characters that I'm most excited for people to dissect and try and understand.

Speaker 2:

I am compelled to say that Joe is saying debtor like d-e-b-t-o-r, because I heard that I was like debtor wait, is she a deadhead? I was like.

Speaker 1:

I know that you're talking about. She's indebted. Yeah, she's also a debtor. That's her job in the pit. You're a debtor, which means you're basically dead.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and amy's a fellow badass like quinn. She's got a whole set of knives.

Speaker 3:

You don't fuck with amy, yes I would not mess with amy not for one second. Um, she is fierce and I love that about her. She, um, she is in her mid-20s. She graduated from from fashion school and has fashioned herself this like harness with knives down her ribs, and she has no fear out there and Quinn really loves getting to know her. And I really love the relationships that Quinn has in this book and, in particular, the relationship dynamic between Quinn and Amy and how Quinn is able to connect with someone who actually cares about her with no strings attached, and it's cool to watch how she reacts to that.

Speaker 2:

Can you say more? Or you don't want to spoil it.

Speaker 3:

I'm intentionally being vague, don't want to spoil it.

Speaker 1:

I'm intentionally being vague I was not to spoil I really love that she is is a fashion designer because, like I love apocalyptic fashion and I don't think it's talked about enough, and especially in the stories. Usually, like when you're reading a story, you don't get a whole lot of detail about, like, what they're wearing or anything. But I want to know, I want to know about all the knife pouches. I want to know how you take tires and add them to your leather jacket to make them zombie bite proof.

Speaker 2:

I want to know these things and I want to know how cool it looks I think this is where I have to say that my oldest sister's name, uh, was amy and she also went to fashion design school. And I don't know if you knew that when you made that choice, joe, but I did not know that she went to fashion school. She did, and she would have absolutely made some badass, apocalyptic shit, although her focus was children's swear, but anyways, apocalyptic children's brand, um, but yeah, I, I will say that I had like an affection for amy right from the beginning. Just as soon as I saw the name um and the vibe so, and the fact that she's such a badass, I was like this is cool. So to learn that little detail of the fashion design, like, wow, the universe is funny sometimes. That's wild. Yeah, I, I love that.

Speaker 1:

I'm telling you telepathy also one of the characters, one of the characters in my book. I've've been calling Amy for a really long time. Sorry, it's. It's one of the ones that I renamed several times until one just stuck. I just.

Speaker 2:

I just kept making up new names and I mean Amy's a common name. I think you can keep it. I got to change I got to change.

Speaker 3:

I think you can keep it too, or maybe spell it in a different way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, look, no spoilers because I'm so far out at this point, but there's some similarities.

Speaker 2:

Weird. Is there like a universal archetype of Amy's?

Speaker 1:

As I'm reading this, I'm like God damn it, joe.

Speaker 3:

Listen, everything is. I think I heard Taylor Swift quoting someone else today in a real because this.

Speaker 2:

This is where it's going.

Speaker 3:

Taylor swift okay it's always gonna come back to taylor.

Speaker 3:

Swift, if you're talking to me, all roads lead to taylor swift but I heard her say like everything is copy, but there there's very little that is original and so I mean we're writing in the same genre, there's going to be similarities. Sometimes I read an apocalyptic novel and I'm like, oh dang it. I remember watching that mall episode of the Last of Us and watching the dynamic between Ellie and I don't recall Riley. Okay, riley, okay, yes. I remember their dynamic and I remember turning to Uli on the couch and saying damn it, that is Quinn and Keisha. And he's like don't worry about it, it's going to be fine. And he's right. No one would look back at that episode and be like, oh, itinn, and like she copied. I didn't like it wasn't the intention, but just by nature of writing in that genre and creating in that genre. We are going to overlap all of us at some point and it's just part of it.

Speaker 2:

You know well, it's the human experience I mean, like, if you think about it, most of not most of us, a lot of us have very you know, there's some basics that happen to every human uh, love, hopefully being one of them being born, dying, having problems, having people who raise you, um, and we're all going through similar stuff. But it's also incredibly unique and I think that that's like storytelling too, because everybody's story is unique, but there's going to be commonalities. It's unavoidable. But I do kind, do, kind of. I just want to pretend, and let me, let me be woo woo for a moment and say that there's a universal Amy archetype out there Fashion designer badass that's. I'm just going to believe that forevermore.

Speaker 1:

Now, yeah, I'm not surprised that there might be some some crossover with some of our themes because, like you are writing about being part of this institution, like that's. That's, that's the like, the core driving element. I think that we talked about this a bit in a previous interview where I made the connection that, because I was in the army, I also experienced a lot of the same things that Quinn experienced while inside the facility. A lot of those techniques are universal between dealing with patients who you can't trust not to stab you in the back and people you recruit to hold a rifle. They're similar. So, uh, I I feel like I feel like a lot of our stuff is coming from a very similar type of of source yeah, and then you made a surprising.

Speaker 2:

I mean this is a parallel for me. Um, I shouldn't say you, I think you made it, but well, you did, you wrote it. The parallel that came up for me was that new city was its own form of institution and there were rules and there were things that Quinn had to do and in some ways that was really familiar for her, but it was also really cloistering. So can you tell us a little bit about the characters that she interacted from the institutional side of New City?

Speaker 3:

Yes, and I think that I worried sometimes that I was being a little bit on the nose, but the pit in particular, which is its own microcosm within New City, is 100% a parallel to the Pegasus Center, down to the point where when Quinn is at the Pegasus Center there are 12 girls on that unit. She walks into the pit and there are 11 other people there with her. She is one of 12. I really like under punishments in an attempt to force the behavior people want to see, whether it be in the Pegasus Center, in the pit, beyond the pit, in New City at large. That's really what it comes down to and I think that I hesitate to say it's not a spoiler. It'll still be fun to read. But Quinn doesn't see that parallel clearly at first. She sees the pit and new city as her opportunity at freedom and doesn't immediately recognize all of the parallels. But we get to watch her learn those things and find those things along the way and I think that's part of the fun, at least for me.

Speaker 2:

And also why. At first it seems like this is fun for Quinn, because there's a difference. Now she's choosing to be a new city, even if there are the parallels happening.

Speaker 1:

Something that I'm just realizing now is because I didn't draw those connections the number of people in the pit, the segregation between the pit and the rest of society. I mean, the point system was there and that made sense. But when I was looking at it I'm like, oh yeah, all of this makes sense because she's basically joining the army.

Speaker 2:

Again, projection of your own experience, which is what we inevitably do as humans.

Speaker 1:

The pit. That's just your training unit. You're on base. You're not allowed to be among the civilians. You're being rewarded or punished based on your merits.

Speaker 2:

You know what else is like the army? Just hit me the fact that quinn and amy are the only women out of those 12 and I'd love for you to share a little bit more about, um, that dynamic and what you were hoping listener at listeners, what you were hoping readers are going to take away from that experience of quinn and am, amy amidst 10 other guys in a basically locked up with them.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and they're on separate sides of the pit right and in the pit they are. The pit is essentially an old locker room inside of a stadium in St Louis, so inside of these locker rooms there are communal showers and things that make being in a co-ed environment a little bit uncomfortable for Quinn and perhaps even a little bit dangerous for the women who are in that situation and that environment in the pit. I kind of imagined it mirroring society in general and some of like the, the dangers that exist for women in the real world, in this tiny microcosm of this larger society. It was not fun to write those parts and that dynamic and those gender differences, differences and, um, and the experience of women in in the pit.

Speaker 3:

Um, we don't see anything terribly ugly on the surface. Some of it is kind of just implied. Um, but because it is a YA book, right, yeah, Um, but you can, you can sense Amy's and Quinn's discomfort in the pit and that sense of it's us against them. We don't think you're safe. Even if they see something, they might not say something. They're not here to protect you. We have to protect each other and I think that is one important moment that bonds the two of them.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, the risk that the risks that amy and quinn experience as women in a facility with a bunch of men, like you said, reflect, uh, I think, the experience of women all over the world at this point, um, and it's more obvious in that setting, because they're trapped and they're in this space where they have to be like sharing bathrooms, like you said with, with these guys who are pretty rough. But there are other characters, there's other men that Quinn interacts with and Amy interacts with in settings that maybe don't seem as immediately Is it too strong of a word to say misogynistic, but there, but there, but she's still battling that pretty much anywhere she goes. I'm curious. I don't know how to make it a question, I'm just going to leave it with. She's still battling that and I'll let you respond.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think Quinn is even at the end of the world.

Speaker 3:

There is misogyny, there are assumptions made about who you are and what you are able to do, and I think that it's not a scenario that is unique to women and girls by any means, but I think just about every girl and woman that I have known has experienced misogyny and being underestimated because of who you are and what you look like. And I think we see Quinn confront that head on. And one of my favorite things about Quinn is that when she experiences someone underestimating her, she doesn't blink, she doesn't doubt herself, she never says to herself well, maybe they're right. She's like, huh, they don't get it, they don't see me, but they will, and that's okay. And it's one of my favorite things about Quinn, because I think a lot and I'm guilty of this too A lot of times we internalize other people's opinions about us and we think, well, that person believes that it must be true, or at least a little bit true. But Quinn kind of shows us that no people can be very, very wrong about you, and I like that.

Speaker 2:

I love it Mostly from the point of view of like. Wouldn't it have been nice to be 16, turning 17, right In this book? I hope it's's not spoiled that it's her birthday. She gets to celebrate her birthday in new city. Uh, to be that age and have that sense of these people have it wrong versus the entire world is telling you. This is how it is. Also, there are a variety of um men, but also women, that are doing things that aren't really appropriate and are a little weird, and and I guess I should just accept that because that's what the world is and it's the truth, because why else would it be that way? I'm the one who's uncomfortable, so I'm the problem, and it was just refreshing to have someone who was clearly not having it. I'm curious if that was like did you have that kind of awareness as a young person? Was it something that you were excited to explore, that somebody had?

Speaker 3:

I didn't know. I received everyone's protection that they gave to me. Like I, I I did not have Quinn's self-assuredness, but I think that you know there's. I've had a lot of people ask me like are you Quinn? Like, do you like? Is any part of you in her? Do you own a wagon? Do I own a? See, you did it too. But my answer is always like, no, I am nothing like Quinn. Quinn is not me. We are not the same person.

Speaker 3:

But I think the part of why I love writing Quinn so much, why it is so fun to get to step into the shoes of someone who is allowed to be completely selfish, completely out for herself, completely disregarding the opinions and the expectations yeah, the rules of like everyone she comes into contact with, she doesn't care. She comes into contact with, she doesn't care. And I know that. I growing up and just being a person in the world, I've been taught to be very. You must be empathetic, you must be a caregiver, you must take care of other people's feelings, you must always be considerate. And while I don't resent that, I value that part of myself. But isn't it kind of nice to let it go just while you're in the pages with Quinn and just live life on the edge like that. I think that that's what people really feel when they're with her, and that's what I enjoy most about writing her.

Speaker 2:

Don't want to take away from the power of what you just said, because I never thought it was a vacation, but it's true. And not only is it a vacation but it's also like. I have empathy for quinn. I see her point of view and I don't think she's totally wrong and maybe there's some, there's some wisdom there to take away.

Speaker 1:

I'm not saying as extreme as quinn I mean but there's wisdom you know they're making their own rules at this point, like the rules of society are kind of gone. Unless you're in a place like new city, like she's, she's allowed to explore her own, her own way of doing things, even if it does come at the expense of other people. You know that's hers to figure out people. You know that's hers to figure out. So like that I mean is is it right of quinn to be able to make, uh, moral choices for herself at the expense of others at this point?

Speaker 2:

I mean, haven't we all? I'm gonna raise my hand right now, even though y'all can't see it. I'll do it for you too, because you can. Uh, I have made choices where I've said this is me or them, and I have to choose me right now yeah I have, I have to, um, and I knew that that is me or them, and I have to choose me right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have to, and I knew that that would hurt the other person and I had to be like I'm really sorry, this is going to hurt you, but I will drown if I stay in X situation or if I don't stand up for myself here, and maybe not as extreme as what Quinn does. But everybody at some point in their life is faced with a moral question like that where they have to say do I do something to make somebody else comfortable or do I do something for myself to make sure that I make it through to the end? It's not so different.

Speaker 2:

This is the epitome of the kinds of conversations I love to have and why I love zombie fiction, and I just want to say again thank you for making a book that made me die on the inside, waiting to be able to just talk with somebody about it, and I think in the future I would love to do an episode for people who have just. Maybe it's even a bonus episode or a private episode for people who have read the book or just talk. I just need to talk about it with other people, basically Because it's got me thinking so many things that are not when my brain normally works.

Speaker 3:

I'm so glad that you feel that way, and I have been dying to talk to anybody about this book. My process in writing is not to share it with anyone except my editors. Until you read this, the only people who read it were my editors. You're the first people to finish it and I have been dying to talk to anybody about it. It comes out in 19 days and I still have no idea what readers are going to think. And is that reckless? A little bit Like? Wouldn't other authors be like you? Crazy, maybe? I don't know, I'm still new at this, but this is I'm all that to say. I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation.

Speaker 2:

I've I've been waiting for it oh, I love that you're doing the publishing thing your way. That's very Quinn of you a little bit. I think I've been saying a lot the last week. I'm like everybody has a little bit of Quinn in them and you got to pull your inner Quinn out, sometimes as much as Quinn pulls out her inner Keisha, who is the opposite of Quinn. Well, in some ways.

Speaker 1:

Read the first book, if you haven't.

Speaker 3:

Different tactics yeah.

Speaker 1:

Different tactics.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that this really does sum up a lot of the reactions that I have gotten from readers after book one. I've gotten a really broad spectrum of reactions. I have had people come out and say you know, I love Quinn, I am Quinn, I get her Like that's my girl Amazing.

Speaker 1:

How do you feel when somebody says I am Quinn, I'm her, like she, that's my girl, amazing. How do you feel when somebody says I am Quinn?

Speaker 3:

I'm like all right.

Speaker 3:

Hey, they're being real apocalypse, see you there, like I'll be on your team, um. But but also some people have, and some people are like you know what? It really made me think maybe I'm more like her than I thought, which is great. There are also people who really see Quinn as a kind of a lost lamb who just needs someone to care for her and love her. And then there are people who have lit up the reviews to say like I hate her and I wish she would die. The spectrum is broad, but I really like that. Everyone has had different reactions to her, because I think that your reaction to Quinn probably has a lot to do with who you are and what you're working on inside, and there's no right way to react to Quinn. Every way is valid. But it's interesting to me to see that spectrum.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the key here is that you made a character that people react to strongly in some kind of way, and that's what's powerful. I've always said, even if I really hate a character, it probably means it's an excellent story. If I hate them that badly, if I love them, same thing.

Speaker 1:

I'm so sorry to those people who wanted Quinn to be a different person than she was and then is disappointed by that. It must be very hard for them to see somebody being somebody that they don't want them to be and not be able to change that. So my heart goes out to those people.

Speaker 3:

The empathy Dan again.

Speaker 2:

Well, don't writers have to be like deeply empathetic?

Speaker 3:

I think so, Dan what do you think?

Speaker 1:

I think some people can string along words in a sentence.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

But I think to be a good storyteller, you got to put yourself in people's shoes, you have to feel what they feel, and you have to experience everything from their eyes, and without empathy you just can't do that.

Speaker 3:

I agree.

Speaker 1:

You've confirmed book three is coming. Um, I feel I would feel upset if there was no book four, but I gotta, I gotta imagine it's gotta end somewhere. Like what, what happens when quinn is done telling us stories? What like, do you keep going? Is there? Is there somebody new?

Speaker 2:

is there somebody already waiting in your brain to like come out? Or on paper somewhere?

Speaker 3:

in book three is there, let me make sure I understand.

Speaker 2:

I thought we were talking about after book three.

Speaker 1:

No, yeah, after, after guys I'm not.

Speaker 3:

I'm not done yet I'm worried that.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to have more after book three. I'm having like that. You know how like you're watching a series on Netflix and you're on the second to last episode and you're like, fuck, what happens after that? Is this the end of the season or the end of the series? Will the creators make a spinoff of this show or do they go on to like some other genre, but like something that I don't? I don't want to, I don't want to like, I just want the zombie are you asking if quinn is or not quinn?

Speaker 2:

wow, I'm so sorry, I just did it to you. That's terrifying, although I will say I have dysnomia. It's real, it's word retrieval with nouns. Anyways, joe Joe Quinn, joe, joe, joe, joe, are you going to? Basically what Dan wants to know is are you going to betray us all and write something other than a zombie fiction book?

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's a good question. I don't think so. I don't think so. Actually, this question was one of the most common questions I got when I was touring high schools was will you ever write anything else? Also, it's future I will be writing more zombie apocalypse. I have a Chicago zombie apocalypse series that I've already started that I'm not working on currently because I'm Thank you. That's so nice of you.

Speaker 1:

The anxiety that just lifted off of me. I was starting to sweat.

Speaker 3:

No, I think I will always write Zombie Apocalypse, because it's the whole reason I started writing in the first place. It is my favorite genre. It is where my brain lives forever. I want to live in that world. The Chicago apocalypse that I'm imagining is the same carrier. It's the same apocalypse that Quinn experienced just in Chicago. I don't think those characters will ever cross paths because they're heading in opposite directions. Right, quinn's going south, chicago is north. So I look forward to writing in that world.

Speaker 3:

I think if I were to step outside of zombie apocalypse, it would be into some kind of dystopian world. I love dystopian fiction. So even if there weren't zombies, there would still be like, what is this world and what has happened? But I've also got a couple of novellas, I think, that might spring from the dead. We still don't know what happened to the boys unit, what happened to them, and I've had a couple of people say well, what happened on the casino ship before the girls got there? Like, what was that? What did they encounter? What even happened? So I think I'm going to have to follow through and tell readers what happened there.

Speaker 1:

Do you do a boy on the bridge and go back and tell the story where you know that everyone dies a horrible death at the end because you already know that they were there?

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm, exactly, horrible death at the end, because you already know that they were there, exactly I. I didn't think I was going to have to explain that to readers, but I guess I did write a little bit of a mystery there.

Speaker 1:

So I will own what I've created and finish it I do love when, like in in world building, I do love, especially with the zombie apocalypse. I love when, uh, when you paint a picture that you can see the story and then it's just like you figure it out. You figure out what happened here and it's like you did it perfectly with the casino boat and it's something that also, like the Walking Dead, does all the time, where, like they go in, they go into a, into a building, and you just see like the carnage that played out in there and you're just like what happened here and uh, and I just, I just love that the zombie apocalypse genre is magical for so many reasons, but one of those reasons is exactly what you just described also oh, you go ahead oh, I just was.

Speaker 2:

Like you know, I think we talk a lot about why we love the zombie apocalypse genre, but I don't think I've asked you. It seems like a simple question, but what is it about it that you're like? I'm so compelled by this? I have to write the stories oh gosh.

Speaker 3:

Well, for for one, I, I really think and you said it in your intro and it's it's in, you know, my bio, wherever my exists. My first experience with the zombie apocalypse was watching Night of the Living Dead at like seven, eight years old, and just being terrified for weeks, not being able to sleep, being so scared that this could happen. And maybe I just found out about it too young, but it has stuck with me forever. Found out about it too young, but it has stuck with me forever. And I am always imagining scenarios where, well, what would I do if this and how would I escape if that? And do I have enough of this to prepare for every kind of scenario? And I'm always thinking about it and being able to write about it and create that world.

Speaker 3:

I love it. I don't know how many zombie apocalypse books I have read. I don't know how many zombie apocalypse movies I have watched, tv shows I cannot get enough of it, so much so that I had to write about it. I don't know if I can really put my finger on why I love it, just that I think about it all the time. It's your hyper-focus, yes.

Speaker 1:

And many, many people's I mean, that's people who listen to this podcast and other creators for sure I found really entertaining was when, joe you, as the author of said book, take Quinn in hand and give her a tour of your college apartment.

Speaker 3:

Do you think that's my college apartment?

Speaker 1:

I do. I do think that was your college as, as she's going through like the books and and go and like exploring the kitchen and all of the little little appliances on the countertop, I'm like this is Joe's apartment.

Speaker 2:

I did, totally did not come to this conclusion.

Speaker 3:

And now I want to know oh my gosh, that is such an interesting guest. So I'm trying to admit I have lots of apartments in college I it's not that far off, dan. I, I do tend to to keep things pretty neat and tidy. I was very serious about my studies and so all of my textbooks absolutely would have been out. Um, in in the in the areas I, I would have had a stack of novels that I would not have wanted someone to touch with their sticky carrier fingers.

Speaker 1:

Um, I would have had a stash of things like maybe you're right, I thought it was intentional where you're just like I'm gonna slip this in here and see if anybody notices. I was so confident that that was absolutely 100 in your apartment and I'm like, I'm like they're going up to the roof to the little fire pit and I'm like like I gotta ask about this fire pit I did not have a fire pit in college.

Speaker 3:

Oh gosh, I wish I would have. That would have been a pretty cool. No, no, I went to college in Decatur, illinois, and we didn't have fun things like fire pits on our roofs in Decatur.

Speaker 1:

And you know, that scene did make me make me think about something, because Quinn is just walking around in this apartment and she's like you know, if I made it out of the facility, this is the apartment, this is what my apartment would be like, and she's like kind of like living that experience and like who do you think quinn could have been if she got out of the facility? Because, like, the rules would be intact, she wouldn't be like free to just stab anybody in the neck.

Speaker 3:

She'd have to like find a different way to exist yeah, she has spent her entire life preparing for the integration into society and trying to hide her true nature so that she wouldn't end up in an adult facility. So she very much had high hopes of where she. She wanted to move on to independent living, right. She wanted that apartment, she wanted the opportunity to be out there. But she also knew that she would be competing with typical teenagers, typical young adults who were nothing like her. And I think seeing what could have been for her is an important moment. Where she's who do I want to be, and then the things that play out in that apartment. She gets a little bit of a preview into that and I I don't know if we want to talk about that or not.

Speaker 2:

It's it's a little bit of a spoiler. I will just say that there's a very heartwarming moment. Yeah, it's nice, it's cozy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I, that's. I also that of genre. They're like the little cozy moments and the way that Quinn surprised me with how she organized some things for her fellow survivors.

Speaker 3:

She learned a lot in the Pegasus Center about how to keep people calm and chill people out, and it turns out it had direct application to the post-apocalyptic world. Yeah, people can read and find out for their selves.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was a beautiful scene. Go get this book If you haven't. If you haven't pre-ordered it yet, what have you been waiting for?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, buy this book If you want to know what Joe's apartment looks like.

Speaker 2:

I know we're coming close to time. I did want to ask you an important question We've touched on it a little bit which is that people assume that you are Quinn, and I even just accidentally called you Quinn because of my diagnosed dyspnea, but it did happen. What is that like for you when you're trying to promote a book about somebody who is Quinn?

Speaker 3:

I have to really control myself because I feel like sometimes I get a little bit. I don't know if defensive is the right word, but like I feel like I have to tell people this is not a self-insert. I know it's like I feel like I have to tell people this is not a self insert. I know it's like people often say like, oh, your first novel is a self insert. It's not. I promise you, it's not. This is I am not Quinn, quinn is not me, but I think, as you have said, isn't Quinn, a little bit everybody. So I don't know, it does feel a little uncomfortable sometimes, especially having my family read this book. My dad read this book and he said to me I keep thinking that she's you and it's like dad, don't do that, don't think that. So it's a little bit uncomfortable. So it's a little bit uncomfortable, but I think people can separate us enough to not make it weird.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if they're not, so they're not afraid of me. If they're not, I mean you do have a machete in your house and a wagon, so there are some suspicious tells. No-transcript verification. Joe and quinn are two different people. I have spent time with joe. I can attest that you are very clean. They have different wagons and very kind different wagons. Not every wagon is a murder wagon, although quinn's wasn't a murder wagon either.

Speaker 1:

Actually, her wagon had good intentions it was functional.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1:

We were roommates for four days and I didn't kill either one of you I know you brought us cake, the best cake I've ever eaten ever in fact, it could be argued that the only reason, uh, that we, that we survived, was because we had roommates that fed us yeah several times and we had roommates that fed us several times.

Speaker 2:

And we had dog therapy through. Wow, this is how you know. I have a noun retrieval problem through data. Dog therapy through data, not Uli. Uli, I know you're human. I'm really sorry. It's a real disability. Nobody knows about it.

Speaker 1:

Uli also provided dog therapy as well, when Uli uh showed us some of data's better, better tricks that's true.

Speaker 2:

That's a good way to put it with a ball yeah, what does uli think of your writing and your stories?

Speaker 3:

gosh. I cannot believe how lucky I am to have him in my life. He's not really a reader he reads a lot for work and he's not really like a novel person, but he read book one and he was so encouraging, so encouraging, and he has been by far the most supportive person in my life. He encouraged me to leave my job and really focus on what I'm doing here. I cannot imagine being able to do this without him encouraging me and being by my side. I cannot believe how lucky I am to have a partner who wants to see me succeed in this. I'm stumbling for words. I don't even have words to express my gratitude for his support. He's been amazing.

Speaker 2:

He's a wonderful guy and it was a relief to meet him in person and know that he deserves you, Jo.

Speaker 3:

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's real, people's really kind. I'm like, okay, you are worthy and you are both worthy of each other and that's a really beautiful thing. And you have the best child ever, data. Oh, thank you, thank you. Sadly, this conversation needs to come to an end for the listeners. I know we'll always be chatting because we're very lucky in that way to be your friend, but where can people find you and your books?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I typically hang out on Instagram and so if you want to connect with me, please do. I love getting messages from readers and I do check, even if we're not following each other and the messages get hidden and stuff like that. I check those. If you send me a message, I want to chat with you. It's one of my favorite things, so do come find me on Instagram. I'm also pretty active on TikTok. I post a lot of things on TikTok that I wouldn't necessarily post on Instagram. So if you really want to see me having fun, go find me on TikTok. So if you really want to see me having fun, go find me on TikTok.

Speaker 3:

But the places you can find my book, those are expanding every day, which is exciting. Mostly people find me on Amazon. You can read my book for free on Kindle Unlimited. There's audiobook and paperback as well. I'm also available at barnesandnoblecom, and then there are a few indie bookstores that have started carrying my books. So D&K Books Underbrush, our Town Books in Jacksonville, illinois, and then Bucket of Blood, most recently in Chicago. So we're getting out there.

Speaker 2:

Last question you have merch Merch that I have already purchased because I was like I have to have this, tell us about it and where people can find that. Yes, I have merch merch that I have already purchased because I was like I have to have this, um, tell us about it and where people can find that yes, um, I, I did.

Speaker 3:

I made new city rovers shirts. So after you you read the book and you know what the rovers are all about, you can decide whether you want to purchase one of those shirts. But they have a fun um logo on them. They kind of look like it might be a sports team that you're repping, but, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's. There's a link in my bio on instagram and tiktok, so if you, if you go on one of those sites, find me, click the link in my bio and there is a t-shirt shop where you can find those.

Speaker 2:

So I've got t-shirts and um patches like that you can sew on or iron on your clothes yeah, I bought a patch and then Dan thought I bought it for him and I was like shit, I should have bought two patches. And I think that, like me, if you have read the first Deadweight, or even if you haven't, it's great merch, but especially if you've read it. I think if you are Team Quinn, if you love Quinn or you love to hate Quinn, you should just go ahead and get something and then be surprised by what you just signed up for. That's kind of part of the fun, or at least was for me thank you but it is time, sadly, to end it.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, everybody, for joining the zombie book club. Thank you most especially to joe salazar for being a zomb bestie. You can support the pod by leaving a rating or a review. Send us a three minute voicemail at 614-699-0006 it's one of the few numbers I have memorized anymore. You can sign up for our newsletter that dan worked so hard on, or you can come and hang out with us on instagram at zombie book club podcast. Want to go deeper into the apocalypse? Join the brain munchers collective on discord. Links are in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

Might sound crazy, but the end is nigh, baby, bye, bye, bye, don't die. Bye everybody, bye.

People on this episode

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Dan

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Leah

Host