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Days Worth Living with Special Guests Rowen and Erica | Zombie Book Club Ep 93
In this episode of Zombie Book Club, hosts Dan and Leah sit down with comic creators Rowen H. and Erica B. to discuss their indie series Days Worth Living. Set in 2005 Illinois, this emotionally charged zombie apocalypse narrative follows elementary school teacher Joshua Martins and bus driver Phil as they strive to protect six children during a field trip gone awry.
Rowen and Erica delve into their creative process, the deliberate choice of a pre-smartphone era setting, and the reimagining of traditional zombie lore. They explore themes of emotional resilience, ethical dilemmas, and the complexities of human connection in a disconnected world.
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Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is a field trip and the field trip reminds us of how happy we are to not have kids. Sorry, parents, I'm Dan, and when I'm not on a field trip of my own on the THC bus, I'm writing a book that has a few kids in it and I won't tell you what happens to them.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm Leah, and today we are really happy to be chatting with Rowan Horton and Erica Brand, co-creators of the comic series Days Worth Living, a zombie apocalypse story that is set in Illinois in 2005, which is now 20 years in the past. I have to say, for all the millennials listening, it's been a while, so an interesting choice we'll be talking about later. Rowan Horton is a game developer as well as the lead writer on Days Worth Living, and Erica is the comic's incredibly talented illustrator. Welcome to the show, Erica and Rowan. How are y'all today?
Speaker 3:We are great.
Speaker 1:How about you? Yeah, we're doing great. Very happy to be on the show with you guys. Yeah, I'm really happy as well. I just recently read your comic and I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I read it when you first sent it to us a couple of months ago. Thank you for your patience. We are like the slowest slowpokes when it comes to podcast stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you read it for the first time yesterday. I did. I'm not. I'm still not finished with it, though I was. I think I still have another chapter to go, but it's well, we're looking forward to surprising you with the latest issue that's come out.
Speaker 3:It's definitely our favorite that we've worked on and we've been looking forward to getting to this one. Issue five, just because that is where we kind of consider it is the first real look into. Now we are in the apocalypse and not just pre apocalypse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gets real without saying more. But let's do our rapid fire questions first, because you are a couple of, that's OK for me to say. Yes, that is all right okay and uh, because you are collaborators on days worth living, we are going to require you to give one answer, one official days worth living answer to each of our rapid fire questions one each, or one for the both of us one for the both of you. You have to. We want to hear you duke it out and then make a final decision together.
Speaker 1:First question 40 hour work week or zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 4:I had some of those questions that do I fantasize about zombie?
Speaker 3:apocalypse, I would, I would say zombie apocalypse, Cause I mean it's, it's a win-win. I don't have to do the work week and you know, if I die I die, so it's a.
Speaker 2:Erica, are you willing? Are you willing to go into the zombie apocalypse with rowan?
Speaker 4:I mean I guess. So if I have to come into that sure, doesn't sound very sure.
Speaker 3:I'm worried about my own safety.
Speaker 4:No, I guess it would depend on the 40 hour work week job. So we'll say it's a bad job and we'll say yes to the apocalypse as many jobs are.
Speaker 1:I've found every job to be bad so pretty much the same okay, so you got. You got your zombie apocalypse just like you always wished, instead of having to go to work. Erica begrudgingly agreeing to this reality oh yeah, now actually, both of you have to choose on one weapon of choice.
Speaker 2:Apparently that's how this works two people, two people, one one answer you have to share a weapon, I guess not allowed to have your own weapon. That's a terrible apocalypse. I'm sorry we didn't think that through.
Speaker 3:It's got to be something two-handed. Then you know, Is it ranged or up close?
Speaker 1:Or do we get the choice. You just have to agree on it.
Speaker 4:I feel like then it'd be better to keep things at a distance from us. So I think a good balance.
Speaker 3:I like to collect medieval weaponry, so I think I have a sort of strange edge in this question. I would say a long type of spear or pike, because maneuverable, don't need a lot of training for it and you can keep things at a distance. And it has that advantage of being quiet because I assume we're in the type of apocalypse where hearing is their main sense. So having a quiet sort of ranged weapon to dispatch easily with that would be my choice. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 4:yeah, even though I think they're kind of what would you choose, erica? I'll break our own rules for this uh, if I had to pick like all on my own, probably something smaller like a bat that I could just like use, ideally, that's a classic maybe a little less skill that's also very important.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you both for choosing soundless things, because nothing makes me more upset when I'm watching a zombie movie or a show and they're just being loud.
Speaker 3:I I'm like like shh being at the television because it really bothers me. They always, they always get guns wrong. They make them sound like they are these quiet. Uh, you could just throw a pillow over top of it and it's silence. It's like no, that still sounds like a car door slamming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's something that Hollywood has gotten wrong for like 80 years.
Speaker 3:You think they would have just done?
Speaker 1:some research and figured it out. I think it's getting better.
Speaker 3:I think one of the only movies that's done it well is Heat, that shootout scene after the heist, where everything is super loud and echoey.
Speaker 1:I think that's the only film that's done it correctly yeah, heat had some of the best sound design of any movie ever.
Speaker 2:It's it's just listening to it, it's kind of incredible I'm nodding like I know what you're talking about, but I can't tell what gun. I have not spent enough time with guns to like.
Speaker 1:No yeah, well, al pacino is a bank robber. What does that have to do with the sound? Um, he shoots. Okay, a few pews all right.
Speaker 2:Next, this is our first new rapid fire question, just for you two. You find a dvd box set and a working dvd player that is powered by solar. What is the one thing, the one show that you would watch together for the rest of your life?
Speaker 3:I think I'll let you take that one. I'm not a big TV Movies are more my thing. I don't watch a lot of television. It could be a movie.
Speaker 2:It's a DVD box set. Yeah, that could be the Lord of the Rings trilogy, yeah.
Speaker 4:I was just going to say, for me it had to be the Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 3:Yes, is the Hobbit included with that?
Speaker 2:I feel like it has to be, since they're some of your favorites.
Speaker 4:It could be a special edition. It totally could be in all of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like the Hobbit's included. If, in the same scenario, if you picked Star Wars, you got all the prequels and the expanded universe, I feel like the Hobbit is the expanded universe of the world it's got to be included.
Speaker 2:It's included, yeah and it's definitely the long cut right yes, absolutely yeah, you work friends.
Speaker 1:Now, erica, you want the 19 hours of extra hobbits?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah. What else are we going to do to pass the time?
Speaker 1:um, you know what I like this next question, because it it's so perfect that you have to agree on one of these two answers.
Speaker 2:Cause that would be real. Yeah, in the moment you would have to make a choice.
Speaker 1:You're, you're, uh, you're in a farmhouse. You know, this might remind you of some type of scenario that might've been in a movie somewhere.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I don't know why this seems clear.
Speaker 1:You're in a farmhouse Weird it's surrounded by zombies. I don't know where you would have seen that before. You have two choices you can go hide in the basement and lock the basement door, or you can go to the attic. Which what do you choose?
Speaker 3:I am not going to lock myself in the basement and potentially be stabbed to death by a child wielding a trowel. Uh, I say attic, because at least at the very end there's an escape by does this attic have a window?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, I think. I think there's like a small window, but there's no ladder it's questionable whether people can fit through this window yeah, it's one of those like um crooked witch windows that doesn't allow witches to go through.
Speaker 3:I would say attic. Zombies can't climb up, unless they're like 28 days later, which then I don't think we'd ever get to the attic or the basement.
Speaker 2:I don't think we'd get to make that choice in time To be fair, we haven't seen them climb I mean in 28 weeks, oh, in 28 weeks later.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, they climb up into the loft chasing the old couple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I thought they came up through the first floor. They crashed into the windows or something. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Clearly we are not.
Speaker 1:It's been a while yeah, we need to watch this again.
Speaker 2:Erica, do you agree with the attic?
Speaker 4:I actually do. Even though he was in the end kind of able to survive in the basement, I would personally pick the attic as well. Same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, you know, you got an escape plan, even if you have to break your ankles to get out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is not the best case scenario when you're surrounded already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can trap yourself in or break your ankles. Those are your two choices.
Speaker 4:Basements are kind of claustrophobic.
Speaker 2:Agree, you know, I'm just realizing I think I would have a better chance in an attic because I used to ride horses and they taught me how to fall properly, and I feel like I could still apply a couple stories up, or I would just break my shoulder instead. I don't know. But you don't want to try and land on your feet or your hands. You want to roll.
Speaker 1:The Tuscan roll method yeah. I've seen some people jump from some really high places demonstrating how paratroopers fall Like. For example, I saw my first sergeant in basic training. He jumped off of a two-story building to demonstrate how effective the roll technique was and it was amazing to watch. He looked like a superhero.
Speaker 2:This needs to be part of our zombie adult camp Is how to jump out of a two-story building and roll away.
Speaker 1:Today we're going to be jumping off of a two-story building. Some of you might not understand how to do this, but we're just going to crash course it.
Speaker 3:You never know when you might need it.
Speaker 2:That disclaimer you signed, where you said you might die.
Speaker 3:That's the first part that applies to here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Would you two do it If you were taught how to jump and roll out of a two-story building in advance?
Speaker 4:would you risk it, you'd do it Absolutely. I don't know if I would. I'm kind of afraid of heights.
Speaker 2:That's fair. That's fair. I'm not sure I would either. I'm too fragile at 41. Like I turned my neck the wrong way, we have trouble. Oh yeah, I definitely wouldn't survive it now. No.
Speaker 1:I can barely survive sleeping in a bed that's not ours.
Speaker 2:That's really true. We hate leaving our bed. You wake up and all your ligaments are shot. Yeah, a good bed. It's really important. That's the only thing I don't think I could survive in. A zombie apocalypse is a bad bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, when we're out on the road just like Mad Max-ing it, we're going to be dragging our bed behind us. We'll put some off-road wheels on our bed. That's gonna be our mad max mobile and they.
Speaker 2:That actually sounds like it fit right in to like fury road now, would that kind of vehicle fit into the world of days worth living? Tell us a little bit about it, especially for those who are listening, who haven't read it yet just as in like a synopsis or a rundown of the comic series itself yeah, just not necessarily, whether or not vehicles would fit in well, I need both answers first tell me about what it's about and then answer whether you think it would be weird in the days worth living world, have a bed monster truck.
Speaker 3:Yeah all right. So uh, days worth living. As you said before, uh takes place in illinois, 2005, which we chose intentionally. It was a deliberate choice to put it at that year because the Bush presidency, coming off of the back of 9 to wondering if this new virus came from the Middle East, from an act of terrorism, and there is a lot of political undertone with that that I'm sure we'll get into later, since it is a very underlying theme with several of the characters. Underlying theme with several of the characters.
Speaker 3:But, um, all of a sudden, on a sunny field trip, september day, all of the sirens start going off in inner city chicago and we follow joshua martins, who is an elementary school teacher, caught completely in the crossfire of the end of the world, more or less, as what appears to be sick people start attacking anyone in sight, and what is catching the military and police off guard is it feels like they turn to their left and to their right and their comrades are falling over and turning into these things as they are trying to combat it. So everyone they take out spawns three or four more. So Joshua, the bus driver, phil and the rest of the class have to evacuate the city and try to survive by any means necessary, with no supplies, no pre-planning, no destination in mind, as they just try and get away from the city.
Speaker 2:And how old are these kids? There's six of them. What's their age?
Speaker 3:I would say they're anywhere from second to fourth grade, samantha being the oldest child at about 12 years old, and Will and Sarah are both about nine or 10 years old.
Speaker 2:I can handle the 12-year-old, nothing younger.
Speaker 3:Also nothing older Hormones start getting involved 11 to 12.
Speaker 1:That's it, Perfect. That's the cutoff.
Speaker 2:Now I have to we have to come back to the vehicle. Would it be weird at this point in your story as far as you've gotten to see a Mad Max like mattress vehicle going down the road?
Speaker 4:I would sort of say yes, that'd be weird.
Speaker 3:They don't get super far in like technical advancement or like vehicles yeah, they very, they stick very um with what they have at the time and I love that we have planned out, instead of siphoning gas three or four years into the apocalypse when it would turn into water. Turning to bicycles, why does no other story focus on bikes as a form of transportation?
Speaker 2:you are the story we've been waiting for. I'm going to be telling all of my eco friends about it because we've had a lot of discussions. Um, some of my friends and colleagues have been like why are there no bikes in the apocalypse? What the yeah?
Speaker 1:and it's not like it hasn't been done, like, uh, the World War Z movie had a scene where they it was all special forces dudes riding bikes it should be the primary motive, that should be the primary form of transportation.
Speaker 3:Though it's quiet, it's fast no fuel required except for your legs have to do your legs, yeah, leg gas in 2005, I'm not sure how popular electric bikes were.
Speaker 2:I don't think they existed yet I don't think they existed either I was also thinking our bed wouldn't exist because we have, unless it was a hospital bed. We have like a fancy bed that folds and you know like changes shapes what are those like tempur-pedic or helix sleep mattresses haven't had a bad sleep since.
Speaker 1:That's why tempur-pedic sponsor us they cost as much as a used car, but totally worth it totally worth it. Um so what? What was the inspiration behind, uh, creating days worth living together?
Speaker 3:I would say, uh, I mean, we've been together a really long time and both of us have either been writing or artists for as long as we can hold a pencil. And I think you are more specialized in this one because your animation and going from an animator to a comic artist uh yeah, so I don't really know.
Speaker 4:I sort of just went, I suddenly like zombies one day suddenly for no reason sometimes it goes yeah, sort of I didn't have like much introduction to zombie media before that, and then I was like I really want to watch the walking dead, and then it sort of just spiraled from there yeah, I love this and before that.
Speaker 4:Like I've been an artist for a while and I always wanted to go into animation, but then I started drawing over and over again and I was like I don't like drawing the same frame over and over, and so then I sort of moved into comics from there and then we sort of just came up with the zombie concept together and it sort of just became the zombie comic that we wanted to do.
Speaker 3:Like planting a garden you don't really know how big the plants are gonna get until they start sprouting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting analogy. Are you two, both gardeners?
Speaker 3:Failed. I feel that Definitely failed.
Speaker 4:We don't have a great garden, but we'd love to one day.
Speaker 2:We're in the same boat. Yeah, I've got a bunch of seedlings upstairs, or rather a bunch of dirt in little containers that is not yet seeds, and we'll see what happens I'm suspicious about the light.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's a uv light.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think so we got a tomato plant going and then we left for vacation and it was not alive by the time we got back something we all need to work on for the zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 1:We really really, really do so was there like a?
Speaker 2:was there like a spark, a moment where you both looked at each other.
Speaker 4:You're like, let's do this uh, so we had been concepting this story for a little while and I kept refusing to make it a comic because I didn't have any familiarity with comics. And then I did some concept art and I think we just sort of fell in love with the concept art and then from there it was just like I think we need to do this now Because we just liked the concept art so much.
Speaker 3:Disclaimer this is our first ever comic series and in a way it's kind of been a long time coming, because we back in high school did a cover for a zombie story, I think it was. We had a class that was like superheroes and science fiction.
Speaker 3:One of the best classes that we ever got to take as an elective and I feel like it is just the direct successor to where that comic cover like started. It just took several years to get to this point and finally commit. Yes, let's do a comic series, because why not? We have the time for it, we have the resources for it.
Speaker 2:Uh, let's actually put our artistic talents together and try and create something you mentioned that, uh, the movie, the thing and 20 Weeks Later were big influences on your storytelling, and also the Walking Dead series. Can you share more about that?
Speaker 3:Yes, the Thing is both of our favorite horror movie of all time.
Speaker 2:I've never seen it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Convince me.
Speaker 2:I highly recommend.
Speaker 3:Watch the 1982 version, not the 2011 version.
Speaker 1:I never saw the 2011 version. I didn't care.
Speaker 3:You're not missing much.
Speaker 1:I was like no, I saw the good one.
Speaker 3:So you have about I think it's 11 or 12 scientists trapped down in an Antarctic research station when they find a basically a flying saucer that has crashed into the ice. They find a basically a flying saucer that has crashed into the ice and they realize that another team has excavated the remains from that ufo and this creature, whatever it is, that's been frozen in the ice for a hundred thousand years, is still alive and can take the form of any living creature, as long as it can assimilate it.
Speaker 2:I I love it. Why have I not watched this? Oh, it's wild.
Speaker 3:And there are definitely themes that carry over into a zombie type story with it looks like us, it sort of acts like us, but it isn't us and it's hunting us to try and take humanity over, and we really wanted to focus in on the scientific aspect of that with there are very defined rules to how the zombie quote unquote virus works. That we will get into and later issues when they find a research station, and there are definitely similarities we draw with, uh, frames and scenes from the thing, as well as the story that inspired the Thing, which was a short story called who Goes there, from, like I believe, 1937.
Speaker 2:Wow, and as an homage to that, the issue when they finally uncover kind of what this zombie sickness is is called who goes there I love hearing that like evolution of a story from 1937 which I'm sure there was inspiration that that person had when they wrote it to the thing to nowadays worth living. It's just really cool to see that legacy evolve and it's a reminder that nothing is born of nothing, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:I don't know if yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree with what you're saying and was the thing also part of the reason why, erica, you drew?
Speaker 2:you drew the zombies to be pretty human. I mean, they look like humans until they get up close. Then you're like, oh shit uh yeah, sort of.
Speaker 4:you always see in the like zombies always look like they're super infected or super decayed and I sort of wanted people to be looking at them and not knowing at first whether or not they're zombies. I mean, it also helps that we're pretty new in the apocalypse, so nothing's really started decaying yet, but that was also a part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes you know you're watching a movie or something and the decay is almost instantaneous. It's like I've even seen some movies where, like the infected person, they're still talking to the person while they're alive and then they turn around and their face is all decayed.
Speaker 3:And it's like that their nose is falling off, and it's like They'll decay in like less than five minutes.
Speaker 1:However, they'll still be walking corpses for like 20 years and it's like okay, you got to pick a rule here, yeah, but I do love that your zombies, for the most part, look human at this stage, because I find it super realistic, but also it makes it scarier because they don't know if they're calling out to a human or a zombie, and I think that's that's something that needs, which we definitely in issue two, where they're just wandering through the suburbs and they come across that abandoned car and they're just like, hey, there's, there's people over there.
Speaker 2:And then they call out to them and it is not people, yeah, not anymore and the way you drew it, it looked like they were doing very normal human things in the first scene, where you see them in the car, and then I and I really didn't expect them to be zombies.
Speaker 4:That was a really great surprise, actually, I thought this is gonna be like oh, these little new characters they're gonna escape with and then, all of a sudden, they're in the middle of half a yeah, we also tried to make the zombies like a little bit more human with the actions and the things that they do, whether it's muscle memory or just like maybe they have some semblance of humanity left. It's kind of open ended at the moment, but I still think it helps to make it a little bit more frightening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does, because I think when the more human a zombie is, the more disturbing it is, because I think the choice to kill them then becomes a little fraught, more fraught.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a very heavy moral choice at that point.
Speaker 1:I think that's something that the Walking Dead kind of missed out on. Like season one, they they kind of hinted to it and you saw zombies that would like return home, try to open doors and stuff. They had like a little bit of intelligence. Then by season two they just got rid of it, and I think that was a missed opportunity because, as as you can, as as you've shown, you know, you can tell so much story with a zombie, um, just by insinuating like who that person might have been, based on what they, what they gravitate back to yeah, yeah, we want to destroy.
Speaker 3:I feel like zombie media now has definitely become oversaturated with the same thing, and as much as I love the Walking Dead and the comic series that the TV show spawned, from nothing but respect to Robert Kirkman for creating what is probably the most iconic zombie story ever, I would venture to even say that more people know the Walking Dead than any of Romero's films. And there I have many criticisms of the show adaptation, such as, like you said, season one. There is some semblance of humanity and intelligence left, and then they just forgot about it. And the biggest thing that we wanted to stray away from is shock value, doing things purely to make you go, oh damn, that's crazy. Like we're gonna kill this character to make you say, hey, that was unexpected. Why did they do that? There is always going to be a meaning to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. That's a good rule to go by.
Speaker 2:And this is always a story Cause I I do agree there's a lot of gratuitous gore in the locking dead, which some people love, but I don't, and I do have to trash talk to locking dead and want just one more piece, which is that then in season 11, the yeah, they came, they circled back to the beginning so upsetting, worse than they'd be like don't.
Speaker 2:I don't even think it's comparable to the beginning. They're like planning things. Yeah, in season 11, at least one of them, I don't know. But, um, I really enjoy your zombie type. The one thing that I think we haven't touched on is like the faster, slow zombie. What, what kind of speed are we talking for these zombies?
Speaker 3:all right, this is a really interesting one. You got to take this one away so it's kind of a mix.
Speaker 4:So when I was originally thinking about the zombies, I wanted them to be kind of slow. But if they're super slow then they're not going to be super threatening. Um, so I kind of thought of it as maybe they have like a hunting instinct. So they're faster at night but slower during the day because they can't quite see when it's super bright from the sun as well. So they're faster at night but slower during the day because they can't quite see when it's super bright from the sun as well.
Speaker 3:So they're like super fast at night.
Speaker 4:So they do run, but only typically at night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's how I feel. I'm slow during the day. We're also slow at night.
Speaker 2:So they have a nocturnal. What are their main senses, though? So they can still see, but not as well in the daytime.
Speaker 3:So they are definitely and this has already been hinted at, but it is a very slow development that we're excited to show off the evolution of basically a new organism. So they are pretty much better than humanity in every way, except for creative intelligence. They are slowly getting faster. They're much stronger than pound for pound, than an equivalent human. They can see better at night. They can hear really well we haven't really explored their concept of taste or touch, but they can smell very well, wow, and they are getting better at it. They're starting out basically like a new species that's trying to find its ecological niche, and that niche just happens to be the same one that we share, and we are also their food source this makes?
Speaker 2:oh, they'll eat other things.
Speaker 3:They will definitely.
Speaker 4:They're creatures of opportunity and none of the characters know that yet.
Speaker 3:But we are definitely excited to explore the slow starvation aspect of if they are eating the same things we eat and also eating us. How are we going to survive?
Speaker 1:Oh, so are we talking about a scenario where you go to uh rate, a convenience store, and all the potato chip bags are empty because zombies got there first?
Speaker 3:not quite your lays will be fine okay that's all we need to know.
Speaker 1:The zombies are like this isn't actually food anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah the other thing that's made me think of is like if they have a really sharp sense of smell, the issue of not being able to bathe very often is is a problem, because maybe they're just like sniffing out dirty humans.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I've actually explored, explored that a little bit as well, like we haven't gotten to that point, but eventually the water will shut off or pipes will corrode and electricity will go and bathing yourself does kind of become an issue, and I mean the rest of the world kind of stinks right now because there are zombies anyway, but then still, if you're getting too close to one, they're probably going to smell you, because you smell bad too.
Speaker 3:It's also a different smell one thing that definitely if you don't mind us talking about it is uh, there are female members of the group and, just like when you're camping, they warn you about certain things. With menstruation, that's definitely going to be a fear of. Well, if they can smell living tissue, is a period going to be a problem when you are surrounded in the middle of nowhere by things that can smell extremely well?
Speaker 2:I, I'm gonna hope and I'm probably wrong, because these zombies sound terrifying, but I'm gonna hope that if you had like a diva cup and then just like got rid of it far away from where you're sleeping, you'd be okay. But I don't know. From what you're telling me, I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1:Or you know that's a diversion tactic.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, could use it Is that the reveal.
Speaker 1:Is that how they?
Speaker 3:trick this out. That is very creative thinking.
Speaker 2:The other question that we had and I know you probably can't answer this because you know this would be too far of a reveal in the future, but we did notice that there were hot dogs in the beginning. Dan was like wait, is there something in the meat?
Speaker 1:I was like it's the hot dogs. The hot dogs started the virus.
Speaker 3:Without, and I feel like I'm trying to avoid delivering on or not delivering on promises with oh, we plan to do this and plan to do that, but you're definitely on the right track. I feel like on a slight tangent here, there are many crossovers between comics and film, and not wasting a scene is super important to us. Yes, our issues are typically 14 pages long, so every panel we have is an attempt at showing you something, and the hot dogs being shown in the very first panel of the very first issue is not a coincidence, and you were the first person to pick up on that, so mad props to that we're legit over here at zombie book club.
Speaker 2:Well, at least dan is, he's the one who picked it up, I mean I'm not gonna, um, you know, I've I've considered this as well.
Speaker 1:I mean, if, if you're talking about a food that is both uh uh, delicious and a disease vector the hot dog, the hot dog, the hot dog.
Speaker 3:That's the prime one there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my second guess was going to be the drinking water at Camp Lejeune, but your story doesn't take place around there. That is a veteran joke for all the people who now have cancer from drinking water. Oh seriously.
Speaker 3:Yes, I know about Camp Lejeune, but I have not served, so I'm afraid the joke will go over my head just a little bit.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask. So you've got a few good main characters going on. You've got Josh the teacher, mr Martins, if you will, and also Phil the bus driver. What inspired you to start your story here with these two characters?
Speaker 4:So you typically see like you're starting with a character who's like a cop or like military man or like this big burly dude who just seems to know what's going on and how to control everything. So the thought was just sort of how do we start with ordinary people who wouldn't know what the heck to do and also we're forcing them to take care of other people? Are the kids their responsibility? Technically they were in charge of them, but that's like for going to the zoo. So what happens when the zombie apocalypse start?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, I like the first time I was like let's just drop them all at home, it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah I do love that the parents figured out. Yeah, I love that conundrum too, because it had me thinking while I was reading. I'm like, yeah, this would be a tough call if you were not under, if you didn't understand the full scope of what was going on. You're just like things are really weird right now. I don't know what we're supposed to do. You know it could be a death sentence just dropping off these kids at home, but at the same time you're under a very specific agreement that you are only taking them to the zoo, not riding the out the apocalypse with them exactly and under normal circumstances.
Speaker 2:If you just like, took a bunch of kids with you after the zoo to a random place that I like, with some other people on another road trip and they don't know like that's officer.
Speaker 3:I'm fostering them in the zombie apocalypse, don't ask questions.
Speaker 2:We're all going to get like phone alerts. What are those phone alerts called Amber alerts? Like everybody's phone would be going off Like this is not normal behavior.
Speaker 1:There's been 12 amber alerts. They're all on this bus.
Speaker 2:Six, to be precise, Six, yeah, speaking of the six kids. So Josh is is a really interesting character. I kind of go in my brain between Joshua and Mr Martin's. I'm not sure if you have a preference for what you call him. I think I think of a Mr Martin's more when I think of the kids, but he's, he is a protector of them and he's clearly centering their wellbeing, which maybe that's the choice he's made, right. I don't know if Stacey, from the very first issue, would feel the same, considering she said that she hated kids. Basically.
Speaker 3:Just load them up on Benadryl, they'll be fine.
Speaker 2:I also hope Stacey comes back just as a sidebar. I thought she was great, but it was really interesting because it was like Josh is a protector, he's a man, but he wasn't really protecting them from physical threats very much. It was like Josh is a protector, he's a man, but he wasn't really protecting them from physical threats very much. It was more like emotional care for these kids and making sure that they were as okay as they could be and helping them leave notes for their parents and things like that. And I have not often seen a male role in a zombie apocalypse genre type of thing. Where it's, it's that kind of emotional care and I'm curious why you made that choice versus the typical like like he should be out there fighting the zombies all the time yes, uh, josh is the protagonist but that does not mean he's the leader of the group.
Speaker 3:That does not mean he's the main character, josh. Joshua is the protagonist viewing actions happening to the other characters and uh, phil already has the highest zombie kill count. He is the muscle of the group as we're at right now, and we wanted to focus on mr martin's, the teacher trying to take care of Sarah, samantha Will with the skills he has, and Joshua, the man eventually evolving into a valuable asset of the group while not being. He's not going to evolve like Carol did in the Walking Dead. He's not suddenly going to become an expert sniper or hardened killer. Joshua's's skill is diffusing situations, talking people down and being able to negotiate with a group of bandits rather than getting into a shootout
Speaker 3:is definitely going to benefit your group in the long run, and we wanted to show a perspective of a character that I don't think I've ever seen in another zombie story. Lee from telltale's walking dead comes close with that. I'm taking care of a child role, but even then his past as a murderer and his eventual skill at arms and being a strong physical member of the group ends up kind of overweighing that emotional element, which is just what we wanted to focus on with Joshua. He protects them from basically what they can't see and what they are feeling, rather than what they're seeing and feeling physically.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate that, because I don't think I was aware of this trope until I was presented with a character that was not this Like. We just finished watching Sweet Tooth. Have you two watched that show?
Speaker 3:I can't say that we have.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's a great show, but it has that same trope that I've seen also, which is like the reluctant male caregiver. It's also in the Last of Us Like he's a reluctant, he's like, oh no, now I'm responsible for a kid, and then he like begrudgingly comes to love them over time. Right, and they're not very good at emotional care, you know like, and so it was really nice and refreshing to see somebody who is so clearly competent as a man in caring for kids. So I just want to say thanks for that, cause I don't think I'd even had awareness of that trope before reading. Days Worth Living.
Speaker 3:And we wanted to focus on deconstructing masculinity. What does it mean to be not just a strong caregiver, but what does it mean to be a strong man?
Speaker 2:Well, it doesn't just mean I can plow through hordes of zombies like Daryl.
Speaker 3:Dixon. It means can I weather my own emotions to take care of someone else and can I be surrounded by characters like mike phil grant who are all very physically like. It is not a coincidence. They are always drawn either taller or wider than joshua is. He is an average build, average height guy, surrounded by a corn-fed country farm boy, a air force soldier and a pretty well-built bus driver. And he is, that's true. He stands out as kind of the smallest male character among them, and that's not a coincidence that he is not supposed to be physically imposing, but he is supposed to be, in a way, emotionally imposing.
Speaker 2:Well, I love Mr Martens. He could be my dad, even though I'm pretty sure we're the same age. Well, I hope we have more Mr Martens in the world of zombie apocalypse genre, because we need them. We need more models and examples of what it means to be a man than the superhero or the reluctant caregiver. I mean, what are the other major tropes that we see with dudes that are kind of tired?
Speaker 1:Just a genuinely terrible person. Yeah, the lone wolf, the Daryl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the evil person. I love when I see a character that's evil.
Speaker 3:That's not a white man Like I know that there's some historical truth to that, but it's just nice to see people be more complex and not always just like you're the worst person here the first quote unquote antagonist being and it's not really a spoiler, but he's a kid, he is a young teenager who is basically left alone to take care of a safe zone, and he is exactly the type of person that Phil alludes to oh, I don't get off, I don't get stopped in this much outside of the bus.
Speaker 3:To oh, I don't get off, I don't get stopped in this much outside of the bus. He is the black teenager that would be stopped based on appearance alone. So what skills does he have? Well, he can intimidate, he can scare people into doing what he wants. He's not really going to be violent in the terms of just I'm an overly violent psychopath he is. I have to protect my group and I'm doing it by my means, the way I know how to, and that puts them at odds with another group that is just trying to do that their way. He's not evil.
Speaker 1:He is looking out for others, maybe in a way that most people wouldn't agree with yeah, I think that's a fantastic idea too, because I mean, how many, how many uh zombie movies can you think of off the top of your head that have a teenage character that doesn't just go along with mom and dad?
Speaker 3:has to make their own decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even the nest yeah, actually I've not really thought about that, like who would we be? Let's have a quick pause. Who would you be as a teenager in the apocalypse? Oh wow, I think I'd be a total asshole saying it now because I thought I knew everything.
Speaker 3:I really did knowing how I was in high school.
Speaker 2:Uh, incompetent so we've got an asshole, an incompetent.
Speaker 3:I would get my group killed.
Speaker 2:What about you, Erica?
Speaker 4:I would definitely be some sort of follower, definitely in high school, and sometimes now I'm kind of a nervous wreck, so I probably wouldn't be very helpful other than carrying stuff for other people.
Speaker 2:Being nervous is key, though, because you're the person that's going to be like well, what if this happens? And that's important. That's what we're thinking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's actually survival. Oh, is this a debate between you two? No, no, that's. What I'm saying is like you plan ahead for all these contingencies when you're anxious all the time, and then, when they happen, there is that kind of cathartic sense of I was right, but you don't really feel good about it.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I've been there, Dan. Who would you have been as a teenager in the apocalypse?
Speaker 1:I kind of have two answers for this. If it was my early teenagehood, I would have been very quiet, very demure.
Speaker 3:Very mindful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so mindful, and I probably would just do whatever I was told. Um, and I probably would just do whatever I was told. If this was like my later teenage years, like 17 and 18, I would be an absolute psychopath. Um, there, like I I would. I would probably just do so many things just because just for shock value. Um, I would probably done so many dangerous things too, like, I probably would rarely ride inside the car. I'd be the.
Speaker 1:I'd be the one that's standing on the roof wielding a machete in the back of the truck you know, I'm like swinging a machete around or like a big long length of chain with a hockey mask and being like where's all the people with the good stuff?
Speaker 2:I want their good stuff you would definitely be the problematic one of the three of us. It sounds like I would just think I was right all the time and probably get us killed for that reason. Um, I'm a recovering person who loves being right. I'm working on it. Uh, I do still love being right.
Speaker 2:I know how that one feels I'm open to the possibility that I'm not now. Uh, 15 year old leah is always right, always correct. Uh, I want to jump in a little more into the question of like why 2005? You said earlier you know it's the time of the Bush presidency. 9-11 is only a couple of years ago. There's this fear and like Islamophobia about the Middle East and the potential like of terrorist acts. What is it about 2005 that was so important to you to like make the backdrop of this story?
Speaker 3:So we were both three years old in 2005. But from what I remember, so this is before the advent of smartphones and before we had the internet. But it was still in that wild west kind of period. We wanted to keep things isolated.
Speaker 3:So in an interconnected world that we have now, people would be tweeting or reposting or there'd be a thousand videos on tiktok, the instant that somebody would be devoured in the street, and then hundreds of people would remix that and stitch that with cringe brain rot music over top of that there'll be people reacting to it, just like pointing their finger up at the footage I think that's um.
Speaker 2:It is a conundrum of modern uh media now to contend with a phone because you can't like it's true if it's. If it's set into 2025, like what changes about your story?
Speaker 3:uh, definitely, I feel like they would have returned to the school because we already see the principal trying to get in contact with him. But with smartphones, that, all these alternate ways of contacting someone oh, a phone line's down, that's no big deal I'll jump on someone's hot spot real quick but if joshua can't get in contact with the principal in 2005, that's it. He either has to go back to the school or prioritize dropping these kids off with their parents. The removal of technology and the connection with others basically forces them into connecting with people that they run into on accident and everything happens in a strange way physically, there's no digital interference beside that first phone call and, like you said, with Islamophobia and the war on terror going on, you run into people with majorly different political views. Like we've had this discussion before of what characters would vote with which political ideology, what characters would vote with which political ideology, and it's been super fun to keep track of like 30 characters and which political stance they lean.
Speaker 2:Like, grant is definitely a hardcore republican I picked oh, we lost power, but you want something awesome. We have backup wi-fi and backup batteries for our laptop, so we're fine all right, do you need anything from us, or are we still? You sound great. Yeah, just know, for some reason we do totally disappear. That's why, um but, and I really hate it, I hope that doesn't happen, but thankfully we have time till this issue or this episode comes out. Uh, what were we saying when the video 2005?
Speaker 3:oh, grant, grant. Could you tell us a little politics?
Speaker 2:yeah could you tell us a little bit about grant, because I think that grant 2005. Grant, back to politics. Could you tell us a little bit about Grant, because I think that Grant and I'm forgetting his wife's name right now.
Speaker 3:Edith.
Speaker 2:Grant and Edith are showing up potentially as some key characters.
Speaker 3:Yes, so Grant is a Vietnam era veteran and that will be explored Now. It's not a core aspect of his character, but it does lend certain things to his backstory and the actions that he takes. Uh, they are definitely people that have seen hard times and great times and grant is that hyper masculine character that I don't feel emotions. I'm just doing what's right to take care of my family and, in a part of my french, fuck everyone else if, if it comes down to that, it's me, my wife and sarah. That's taking off. But he is definitely going to develop into that found family character of these are my people and we love grant's evolution. Almost he might be one of our favorite characters. To write just character wise like top three.
Speaker 4:For sure you have anything to add with that um explore edith and her problem so edith is also kind of fun because she's an older woman and you can already tell that she's a little bit sick maybe. And then how do you deal with people who maybe are sick in the apocalypse as well when they need like medication and stuff like that? So I mean, I don't know that she has much political, but just as a character yeah, definitely exploring the aspect of you're taking care of someone with dementia.
Speaker 3:How do you keep them close with your group? How do you keep them safe when they have a tendency to forget, wander off, think they're somewhere where they're not?
Speaker 2:yeah, suddenly forgetting that it's the zombie apocalypse is a very dangerous thing.
Speaker 1:Um, I have a very important question, oh um, and you know what, if you don't want to answer this because it's a spoiler, I understand, but does edith ever get to her book club?
Speaker 2:is the book club even still happening was my question.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm gonna have to say, uh, probably not ah, that's a bummer I I.
Speaker 3:One of the problems with edith is she's a very difficult character to write and I feel a lot of the time she kind of gets pushed to the back because what does she contribute to the group when you have greater stories to tell of them going out? Edith is usually relegated to the house and it's a shame because I feel like she would be a greater character to explore. But it would pad a lot of pages to just see more or less what would be the same thing with their character a lot maybe edith deserves her own like special side.
Speaker 2:Uh quest issues yeah yeah, dimension, the apocalypse, yeah, oh, my gosh, edith edith goes to the book club. That's perfect.
Speaker 3:Yes, I would read that um she's reading to a group of zombies that would be wonderful.
Speaker 2:Uh, grant is an interesting character though, and just for context, these are the grandparents of one of the kids, sarah, and that's where they end up as they've escaped the city at this point, and he reminds me a little bit of Herschel. I'm curious if there was some connection there when you were thinking with that Grant archetype.
Speaker 3:We kind of wanted to avoid going too close to Herschel, which is why he's wildly different in personality but very similar in archetype. So owns a farmhouse, old kind of wise center of the group. But Grant is dismissive. He's sharp, he's a little abrasive and we see those aspects with Herschel when they explore. Explore oh, he's a recovering alcoholic. But more often than not he's the moral center. He is someone that rick can lean on.
Speaker 2:And in the aftermath of what happens at the end of issue five, grant is furious, he blames everyone around him for what happens and he is on the verge of kicking all of them out because of an accident that more or less is grant's fault yeah, I mean that's an interesting thing, but it's it's really clear right from the moment we meet him, because a bunch of strangers are showing up at the door who are handing him his granddaughter, so that's nice, but he doesn't want to take them in, and I thought that this was like one of the.
Speaker 2:You had a few key ethical dilemmas in the the issues that are out so far, but this was one of the big ones that I felt, which is like this moment of would you, if strangers showed up at your door They've got one person you know, in this case, that you care about, and they're saying we need a place to stay do you let them in? And he does, but it's very begrudgingly like he does not want them there and he wants them to leave as soon as possible and I could not say that I would do that.
Speaker 3:I I'm not sure I could shelter three complete strangers like grant's a big guy but if these people have an ulterior motive, fighting one person would be easier for him. But I feel like a lot of hollywood definitely destroyed that. Two people instantly tips the scale. So if violent altercation broke out, grant's definitely thinking with his past in the war. He's not going to be able to take three people on what. If this is a trap, what happens?
Speaker 2:and this is a bush voter who probably is really upset because of 9-11, um and their experience in vietnam and like they have a lot of fear already and like a focus on protecting themselves and their family yes, definitely a aspect of his character with.
Speaker 1:We see in his dialogue, uh, where he often says not in my country, where he's a very, very proud patriot yeah, and there's also that, that, uh, that balance of, like you know, maybe he doesn't want to bring people in because he'll be outnumbered, but also, if they're on his side, then he could bolster his numbers and be more protected I don't think he's thinking like that yet yeah not quite yet hopefully he gets there.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing that I the other ethical dilemma that I thought about in this moment too is like, okay, he's let the people into his house and he's very clear, it's his house, his rules, which is like a general norm. Right, like you go to somebody's house, even on a regular day, you're not going to start rifling through their cabinets and like go into their bed and go to sleep. Like we have social rules, um, but now it's the apocalypse and like shit is upside down. How long do you get to make the rules, just because it happened to be your house first?
Speaker 3:yeah, it's definitely the uh needs of the many versus the needs of the few. Like when do your societal norms start to break down? And for grant, that might be longer or quicker than you assume, because he is a pragmatic person, but he is a very emotional person as well, and I don't mean that in the way of where a lot of the quote-unquote alpha males would be like oh, he shows emotions, he can't be a man. Grant can cry, he can upset, but more often than not he just tends toward anger.
Speaker 2:Sounds like a lot of men in that generation and still many men in ours in the millennial land. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Grant sounds like my dad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, erica, what would you do? Like, okay, let's make this a real situation. So somebody, let's say three people, show up at your door. One of them is a kid that you have. I don't know if you have children or if you have nieces or nephews or like friends with kids, but imagine it's a kid that you really love. What would you let them in? What would you do?
Speaker 4:I know that's such a tough one because I don't know if I would. I'd be very grateful for their help, but I don't know if I'd let them in. But I'd be really worried if I didn't let them in they might be angry and come back later because maybe they thought they deserved to come in my front door because they brought me this child, you know. So I think it would be a hard balance.
Speaker 2:I think if they came off as really friendly, I might just let them in, because I'd be too afraid of not letting them in and not coming back there's that anxiety for you yeah, yeah, they definitely gotta come back like take the kid again or something trust is a hard thing in our society, especially as people who, like we, don't um share a lot in this culture, in the sense of, like we all typically have our own homes, we have our own jobs, we have our own ways of being and like I'm thinking the same thing, like if somebody randomly appeared here, even if our neighbor, whose name I will not mention, I think we'd let her in.
Speaker 1:Actually, I'd let her in, even though she annoys me, without saying anything else, but we would be like you think it's safe to go back to your house yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when are you going to leave?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd look out the window and be like I don't see any zombies. I think it's clear.
Speaker 2:There's something about trust earned, though, because, in the same vein, like we told you before, we were recording that there's an electrical I mean, hopefully it's out by now but there was an electrical fire happening nearby us, right by one of our neighbor's houses, and they texted me to let me know because we wanted to know if we knew. We had no idea, but they're close by and I said like if you need to get out, just come to our house. And like I didn't think twice about that and that's a family with two adults, two kids and a bunch of dogs, and I think that shows the power of community and how like relationships matter, because I wouldn't hesitate for a second for them to come over. But my other neighbor I'd be like, oh god, this is gonna be human.
Speaker 3:Compassion definitely shows through in the hardest of times, yeah, and then sometimes human. Whatever the opposite of compassion would be definitely can be the worst in the worst of times.
Speaker 1:Look at just war crimes or war in general yeah, those people definitely exist and you know, we're seeing, we're seeing it on full display these days.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know I forget what it's from. Leah might remember the name of the book, but the measure of evil being the lack of compassion.
Speaker 2:I don't remember the book, but it's Hannah Arendt about the banality of evil. Yeah, that regular people will do evil things because, uh, they were told to basically and then not really understand that it's evil yeah, I, uh.
Speaker 3:I definitely resonate with the steinbeck quote um war is a symptom of man's failure as a thinking animal oh yeah and that one has always stuck with me that is really, really powerful.
Speaker 2:It is a weird time we're in because that you know there's this thing, this, this concept now that I've never heard of until I don't know two weeks ago toxic empathy. And I'm like a really empathetic person and so when I'm reading your comic I'm putting, I'm trying to be like okay, like I kind of get where grant's coming from, but I think I'd be the person who would let them in, but actually that's risky, like I don't want to admit that there's truth that sometimes empathy can be risky, because I think the this idea of toxic empathy is a little bit. It doesn't align with my values. I guess is what I'm saying. But I have to admit that you you still have to have some judgment about who you let it and who you don't right.
Speaker 1:Nothing is ever black and white no, I'd go off of a vibe check Vibes To have good vibes, all right it is funny, though, Like there is like do you two have this where you're just like, yeah, I just trust this person?
Speaker 2:I don't know why I trust them, I just do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I started as a very introverted person in high school and now, like I'm very extroverted, perverted and it just I, there's definitely a feeling of just I click with this, this, this guy, we're, we're friends now and it can be a day that I know them. It's like sometimes there's risk to that. Maybe I shouldn't immediately go yeah, we're, we're cool. When I don't really have the best grasp on someone and I'm just going off of, this is the feeling they give off vibes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if, uh, if grant and mr martinens are going to become buddies at some point, or if that's going to be a rough journey definitely a rough journey, but uh, there are always lights in the darkness yeah, I mean, they're pretty diametrically opposed, but like that can also be a good partnership we uh, the characters are, I feel, like, some of the hardest things to write.
Speaker 3:I myself am more of a world builder more than a character writer, so this has been a a tough one for me, and without Erica, who is the much better character writer, I don't think I could do this story to the justice that it deserves. Without her take on people that I might not think of.
Speaker 2:What's it like working together? Like how do you each contribute to that vision of the story and the characters?
Speaker 4:I'd say for the most part it's really positive. We go through the story and then we both kind of put in our input If there's something that we kind of disagree on or if we think that a character needs a little bit more work, and then when we're actually creating the comic we both work together pretty well. I usually do like the layouts, the line works, and then he'll do the coloring and the text and stuff. So it's a lot of back and forth between the two of us and it's just open, open collaboration.
Speaker 3:So, uh, we have had our fights. I want to hear one we're getting fight fight.
Speaker 2:Tell us a fight. Was there like a generative fight though, like that actually you're like, oh, this was like, that was rough, but it's better on the other end we have definitely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, had those. We had one funny enough yesterday where we're both experiencing burnout for the first first time. I mean, we've felt burnt out before, but we're at the point where this is extremely crushing burnout because we put an issue out every month it's amazing.
Speaker 2:I've been wondering.
Speaker 3:This is this is the beginning of a new arc and we're changing the. If you've noticed, between the first three issues and then issue four and five, we tried a new technique to raise the quality of the image. However, that means that the images are much heavier and they're not kilobytes Now, they're megabytes of just a single page and they're harder to color and harder to letter. And experimenting with new techniques while also trying to stick to a deadline can be very difficult, and we don't tend to scream but we do make very pointed, pointed sentences like phrases at each other.
Speaker 3:We can get kind of cruel and we always we always apologize afterward because usually it's emotion taking over, because we're both just tired and it can be a tiring experience, but it's definitely worth it. We love doing the comic for the love of doing it we can relate to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think like we have created differences. Sometimes there's finger pointing at each other, um, but this is like we. You know, as I mentioned we're not.
Speaker 4:We are childless people, but this is our child in.
Speaker 2:This is like you know, as I mentioned, we're not, we are childless people, but this is our child in a way, and I, you know you start to care really deeply about it. And the fact that you all have made the commitment on a monthly basis to release something, by the way, for free folks like you can go and read the first five issues is a huge commitment to make. On top of what I'm imagining, you have other other responsibilities in your life yes, uh, just a general thing of working a job.
Speaker 3:I feel like that. A lot of people realize that we still have a 40 45 hour work week to contend with as well as this, and it can be difficult to juggle all of them, and I like loading my plate up with stuff. So, having to juggle a job and then my responsibilities to the comic and then wanting to write books myself and then also doing side projects for the comic, I sometimes bite off way more than I can handle it resonates just a little bit, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean I I'm really fortunate that like I get time during the winter, my off season, to like relax and stuff, and you know this podcast. We used to do it every two weeks and then one winter we decided, hey, let's do it every week, and then that continued into the work season and now I'm getting close to that work season I'm like, oh, my God, my god, am I gonna be able to do this?
Speaker 3:yeah, is it sustainable?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah because we're trying to read something every two weeks for an interview and it's yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know how we're gonna be able to sustain that when you're back at work after your off season um, I want to talk a little bit about the uh, the art and and visual storytelling, because I found it really great. One of the first things that I commented on, in fact, to Leah was how I really appreciate how the most important things in the scene is what gets the most detail. You're not being distracted by a lot going on in that scene other than what's important. Being distracted by a lot going on in that scene other than what's important and, uh, and I think that's something that's that's a a good lesson for people that are that are illustrating comic books is like you want to draw attention to that important thing. What, um, what was, what kind of influenced your style when you decided to uh, to make this comic?
Speaker 4:uh.
Speaker 4:So first of all, I really appreciate that, um, but to be honest, I didn't have like a lot of study in comics before I started this, uh, so I basically just sort of picked up a few walking dead comics.
Speaker 4:I have a couple of superhero comics and I've read a couple of webtoons here and there and I kind of just tried to feel out what art style would just feel best for me. And it's maybe not as quite as gritty as I've was hoping originally, but I found that this works best for me because it's manageable. It's manageable for me to be able to do this the way that I do it. I know that originally, when I was wanting to do the grayscale background but in red, uh, we kind of had arguments about that as to whether or not we thought that would look good, but I I was really passionate about just having this red background that everybody kind of pops out against, with, uh, the colored characters, and I thought the colored characters would also help you know who's who, because I don't want all the characters to begin to look the same.
Speaker 3:Same face syndrome.
Speaker 4:Which I'm hoping so far I don't have. But when you have a larger cast that can begin to happen just naturally. So I was hoping that by adding color to the characters against a red background they'd pop and you would know who's who.
Speaker 2:I think you achieved that.
Speaker 3:We definitely fought on the red toning of everything. I thought it was going to be silly and it wouldn't really work, and I have totally come around to those outdoor scenes during the day having that gray scale, but it's gray red. So clouds are a pinkish color. Uh, foliage is a dark kind of reddish, reddish gray color and I think it works to set the atmosphere and then at night everything becomes violet toned or brown toned, and I think that works incredibly well too, and I admit that I was in the wrong on that and jumped way too hard on.
Speaker 2:This isn't gonna work how does that feel to hear erica?
Speaker 3:very great but visual storytelling for us. For me um, coming off of the back of game design and also wanting to go into film visual storytelling is my favorite medium. So laying things out in a way that tells a complete narrative without having a single line of dialogue, like in issue three, where you see the uh. They go to samantha's trailer court and joshua's looking over and you just see that one femars operative in the yellow coat with that big open bite mark on his leg tells you exactly what happened, because there's femars tape everywhere, police tape everywhere and one lone operative who is definitely turned but just waiting there. You don't need any dialogue. He doesn't need to go what's that? Or have a thought about it, because he knows what it is. We is and I trust the reader, I trust our audience to know.
Speaker 2:I don't need to hold your hand and spell everything out no, you don't, but you also do a good job of like I knew all the characters names, which sometimes, when I'm reading a comic, I'm like who is this person? I keep seeing them. I need to go back and find that. Yeah, so I just want to say thanks for that. That makes a difference for someone like me, because I forget characters' names in shows I've watched for years, like the Walking Dead. Who's that character I don't know. I did want to ask you, though, erica.
Speaker 4:You said it wasn't as gritty as you initially were thinking, and there's actually a one of the panels where there's a zombie has been shot in the head and their eyes popping out. I just stared at that one image for quite a while, so I thought that was gr. I think there could be more, and maybe that's just because your artwork will never be perfect in your own eyes. I tend to have a kind of cutesy art style, though, so this is fairly different from what I normally do, but I do like hearing that that you think actually it's pretty good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really enjoyed that one image in particular. Like that would be. I would, if you were doing a kickstarter or selling stuff, like I'd buy that as a little poster for our zombie room that we're in right now. Um, which brings me to my next question for you, as somebody who used to or not used to, but primarily dry as cutesy things, I'm kind of like you. I'm also an artist and before zombie book club I'd never drawn anything like gory or on the darker side of stuff. And then I've discovered this love for it. I had no idea until I started doing it and my reaction to drawing really disgusting things is it makes me laugh the whole time because it's so, so ridiculous, but also grosses me out, and I'm curious what it's like for you, as a typical sort of cutesy drawer, to be like I'm going to draw a head getting blown in by a gun and an eye popping out uh, yeah, so I'd say it's probably pretty similar.
Speaker 4:When I draw it I do feel kind of silly, uh, and it's hard to imagine it, because I don't actually like gore very much. So I don't want to go out of my way to search a reference I've learned that lesson too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've had to like search my brain for movie scenes that I've seen and how could I make this graphic? But like I don't want to look for something graphic, I think for the most part, fortunately, I've been able to find a good balance, since most of the zombies aren't terribly gory anyway. But at first, trying to figure out how I wanted to do it was pretty tough.
Speaker 2:I enjoy it and I think like that's probably why that one image stands out for me, because it's not just constant gore being shoved at you all the time, and so now I just have a like. That image will live rent free in my head forever.
Speaker 3:Finding a good balance between, yes, this is a violent, bloody world, but also you're not going to constantly be surrounded by buckets of it just all the time, I mean it depends on where you hang out.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yeah, I've. I've recently, uh gone back to this, this, um, this thing that I used to do as a kid and I'm we made a video about it and uh, I made like a little clay zombie skull and then shot it with a, with a pellet gun, and I feel like that would be like incredible drawing reference material yeah, get a time lapse of that where you can pause on the perfect frame of it just shattering yeah oh, I did want to ask you, erica did you ever um look up an image that you regretted as part of your research?
Speaker 4:I have not yet good for you.
Speaker 2:I've made that mistake and I I was like why did I put that in the search bar? So I'm very impressed that you had the foresight to not do that I'm hoping it stays that way I recommend it after seeing some of the things that I I googled. Charred flesh, don't do that.
Speaker 1:Oh no yeah yeah, I think that's probably like one of the worst things you can look up on the internet.
Speaker 2:It was your fault, because you were like what if the zombie crown had charred looking flesh?
Speaker 1:and I was like I don't know what that looks like yeah, I kind of forgot that everybody just doesn't have locked into their brain what charred flesh looks like like real.
Speaker 3:Second, third degree burns on a person are awful nasty it is a screwed up site for sure. Like I would rather look at someone's insides than someone burnt, just personally I wouldn't want to look at either, but if I had to pick, yeah, I think I'm, I think I'm with you on that one I've never done a would you rather icebreaker?
Speaker 2:but I think I might take this as inspiration, like would you rather look at somebody's intestines spilling out or somebody who's badly burned?
Speaker 3:that'll be a good one. Use that one. Use that one the next time, okay, yeah I'll just like right out the gate.
Speaker 2:It's our first rapid fire question that'll.
Speaker 3:That'll determine if they're, if they're willing to sit out the rest of it dealer's choice, or rather your choice as the creators?
Speaker 2:would you like to talk about the influence of the walking dead games from telltale?
Speaker 3:yeah, absolutely, because there is a quote that I have seen no one else talk about that for some reason stands out to me as just a prime zombie apocalypse quote and also just a prime light fiction quote, like it just works for me and I've definitely taken it with me with every issue and the dialogue that we're writing for that.
Speaker 3:And it's when they're in the RV, lee and the little girl Clementine are together and Clementine asks why another character had been killed by a member of their group and Lee responds with just and it's delivered so well.
Speaker 3:Because bad things happen to everybody and I think that carrying that with the entirety of the story with children, multiple child characters being very core, central characters to the story, having those questions for characters like josh or characters that don't have an answer uh, like mike, who's not really, he doesn't really understand kids, so so I can see him answering that with that, because bad things do happen to everybody and sometimes there are horrible things that that person didn't deserve, but also, on the flip side, bad things happening to somebody that deserves it isn't always something you should celebrate, and that is what, for us, makes days worth living in an apocalypse how you treat your fellow person, and that's why the title is what it is. How do you find those days in a horrifying, crushing situation where everyone you know is either dead or the walking dead or has punched their own ticket? At this point, how do you find the motivation to go on? What makes life worth continuing with?
Speaker 2:You answered a question. I was going to ask you about the name and I had that vibe, and I think each character I imagine has to find their own answer, just like we all do in regular life even.
Speaker 1:Absolutely all do in regular life, even absolutely for uh, for me, when, when life was at its hardest, I, I think I, continued with life out of spite.
Speaker 3:So I think that'd be how many people do that'd be my answer in the apocalypse.
Speaker 1:It's like the apocalypse can't kill me.
Speaker 3:I'm still here I'm gonna live just because I can yeah, yeah, I was on the flip side before, dan.
Speaker 2:Now I have more confidence in our ability to survive. But if I was not with you, I'd be like you know, I'm going to find a peaceful exit If zombies appear. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 3:It sounds like someone I know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not giving.
Speaker 2:I'm not giving up my bed if you make me a mad max bed. Okay, I'll stick around. How about that?
Speaker 3:so you had a question for us yes, and it ties into what you were saying about each of the characters finding their their own days worth living. Of all of the main characters that have been introduced and I'm counting josh phil, sarah, sam, mike, grant, edith and Cassidy now who's been introduced in the newest issue Of all of them, who are your three favorites and who are three that you know that you would not really get along with and are maybe not your least favorite, but ones that don't appeal to you quite as much as the others?
Speaker 2:Okay, I got this I uh, grant is one of my favorite. Grant is one of my favorite characters. Absolutely don't want to know him in real life, um, uh, yeah, enough of that in my reality already, and not because he's not, he's not. It's not that he's a bad guy, just uh, knowing me, we'd get into too many political debates, like in the midst of a zombie apocalypse. We would be duking it out and that wouldn't go well.
Speaker 2:Um, but I also find him really interesting as a character especially when it's his farm yeah you'd have to hold your tongue a lot yeah, um, I really like mr martin's, for all the reasons that we've already talked about, just that he is a man that feels um, this might sound kind of ridiculous, but I'm just gonna say it like a lot of as somebody who was, who was raised and socialized to be a woman in a body that looks like that. I it's not every day that I trust a man. To be frank, like that takes that speaking of trust like that takes extra effort for me to trust a cis man. And I trust Mr Martens and I feel like I'm sure he's a deeply flawed character like everybody else in it, but I think that his heart is good and I like that he chooses to protect and care in the way that he does. So he's definitely a favorite for me. And then for the kids do I have to pick a kid?
Speaker 3:you don't have to pick a kid I care about them.
Speaker 2:I don't want them to die, but I think I'm more interested in, like I, and I think that they play an important role in the story. So I wouldn't want them to disappear absolutely. But I gotta say my third favorite character is phil. Yes, yeah love supremacy yeah, um, in terms of like who I wouldn't want to be, I think like the whiny kid. Which one's the whiny kid?
Speaker 2:I'm forgetting the one that was sick and died yeah, that one was okay, I was okay with it. But isn't that a spoiler, dan, that you just said that? No, that's an issue too okay. Yeah, I was okay with it. I was sad, but also like what a great piece of art moment when they're pushed over into the pool.
Speaker 3:Gotta say yeah or is it a pool, because yeah it was a pool. Our biggest problem with that is originally there was a little bit more blood pooled under him, but then people took it as mike had shot him. But it's like no he didn't, he couldn't bring himself to do it. So that was clear to me that that is pivotal to his character in these first couple of arcs yeah, that was clear to me and I although, like I think pushing a kid is also a rough choice, not great, not great I can't say I would have made the same and I'm not pro I'm not pro them dying.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying that, like the whining is why I don't have kids what about you, dan?
Speaker 1:um I'm. I think I'm gonna put phil as my number one, um I, I don't know why I just I I vibe with phil.
Speaker 2:He drives a bus, so drove a bus, yeah maybe there'll be one in the future though new buses yeah, there's buses maybe an rv yeah, um, again, I like mr martin's, for the reasons that we already discussed.
Speaker 1:I, I, I love it because there's so much story to unfold with that that we haven't really seen in anything really. And also, you know, in in this, in this era, I've also tried to discover what manhood actually means. And you know, like I've lived a long life of discovering myself and having people telling me what I'm supposed to be, and my whole life I've kind of just rejected the things that they told me are important, which, which beer I drink and which sports I watch, you know, and I'm like, well, I don't want to watch sports and yeah, I can relate to that one yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't think that my manhood is tied to brand loyalty, so I'm out, I'm out the window with that one too, um, but I also recognize that it is like a part of me too and it's just something I try to, I try to be conscious of. So, like his, his journey will be an interesting one, because it's it's something that I'm also trying to do is is be more emotionally intelligent. Um, and then um, grant. I I see a lot of myself as well in Grant. Unfortunately, I think Grant and I would probably get along, as long as I didn't start, you know, as long as our conversations weren't too meaningful. I could just be like, yeah, farming right.
Speaker 1:I could get along with the farming part of grant too. Yeah, if we just talked about farming it wouldn't be a problem. But as soon as he starts, you know, with his shitty anything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in this country oh no.
Speaker 1:And then I'd be like well, let me tell you about this country, and that would be a very bad conversation, and you're both veterans, so like that would be yeah, both of you be.
Speaker 2:You're both veterans, so like that would be yeah, both of you be like, because you can use that as clout to a certain degree. But yeah, I feel like there might be some fighting over like which of you saw worse things and some of the weird stuff that happens with veterans sometimes yeah, um.
Speaker 1:And as for the kids, I was kind of hoping all of them would just die damn wow, wow, and that was a shock value.
Speaker 2:I would like, as an introduction to dan you, he's just trying to shock us all well kids.
Speaker 1:kids are gonna be tough in the apocalypse, like it's. You know, like every, everyone has a role to play in your survival group and I hope that they find their role quickly, because otherwise eight to 11-year-olds tend not to handle things very well and it's hard to keep them on task, so they tend to be a liability when there's flesh eating ghouls chasing you.
Speaker 2:Dan, as an adult, how much time have you spent with eight to 11 year olds? I'm going to call you as little as possible. What about you two? Are you two like, fluent in eight to 11 year old?
Speaker 3:Absolutely not no.
Speaker 2:Okay, I feel like I'll just go off of my experience. I have a nephew who is definitely not eight anymore. In fact, he has a, a kid, another one on the way, uh, and actually, yeah, I guess he'd be.
Speaker 2:wow, this is, I'm so old, I'm like what yeah, well, my sister was a lot older than me I was only 16 when he was born but anyways, I took him on a canoe camping trip once and what I learned really quickly was that he wanted to contribute and he wanted to be independent. So I mean, the reality is this is a really dark thing to say, but child labor was a thing. Some states in this country are trying to make it a thing again. Kids, kids can contribute. I think the question is like how much should they contribute and what should they be protected from, especially in a zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 3:all things we explore.
Speaker 2:So oh, all right well child labor coming up okay they are. They are not the only kids that will be introduced, so I'm super curious if stacy and those two girls come back, mostly because stacy had a really great little green hair shag situation that I liked your creative liberty on that one yeah, I was like I just think the green looks good it does we love?
Speaker 3:we love the interesting character designs. There's one zombie that's appeared twice with a rainbow sweater, and that rainbow sweater is just one that she owns. And it's like, technically, an artist cameo, if you want to consider it.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, you drew yourself in as a zombie.
Speaker 4:I couldn't help myself.
Speaker 2:How could you not? That is wonderful. So I hate to say that we're going to be wrapping up in a minute because it's been such a great conversation with you, but we would love to hear what your plans are for the comic next, how people can follow you and if there's any way people can support you, because you are currently offering this very generously for free online. Yeah, offering this very generously for free online.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we are technically going into what we would consider our second volume, because issues one through five covered a complete story arc with Joshua trying to get the kids somewhere safe, and now that he's done that, now we get to explore different themes. You can find us under the name Days Worth Living, the name of the comic, on Global Comics, nami Kami, and then there is a croatian website that is recently sprung up called comcraft, and they are offering, uh, basically another free hosting website for indie comic creators. They don't hold any dc, no marvel, no image, because they want to keep the focus on smaller creators. And, uh, as of right now, we don't have any plans to make the comic not free to read. Uh, the game plan going forward is going to keep it as a free online comic, with physical editions that will be available for a paid price, but, uh, it's a story that we want to tell and we don't want to pay all that behind anyone. So, as it stands, you can find us on those three websites.
Speaker 3:You can also follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky under Days Worth Living, where we post occasional updates on art process or finished pages that we're very proud of or other artwork, like you can see some of our Batman characters that we did interpretations proud of or other artwork. Like you can see some of our batman characters oh, fun, that we did, that we did interpretations of on both instagram and blue sky. But, uh, we have a patreon, but as it as it stands currently we're not really heavily promoting that because we don't want people to assume that, oh, we're artists, so you should pay us for doing art, which I feel like is unfortunately the common consensus for a lot of people is they see a patreon and then they don't want to support it because, well, I'm not paying for this and we want the comic to, since it's a labor of love people to enjoy and get to fall in love with these characters and, in a strange way, fall in love with the post apocalyptic world we've built as well.
Speaker 2:Well, we love it and I really appreciate you all for making that offer for it to be free. I think it's great when people monetize it and I will certainly be buying a physical copy. Slash, if you could make that one image a poster. I would love that too.
Speaker 2:That can be arranged, and I will just say like it's an interesting choice, in a world where people want us to monetize everything, to sometimes not do that. And we've done the same thing with the podcast so far too, and I think there's something that's like an intangible value to just offering your creativity to the world. So thank you for doing that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. We wouldn't have it any other way. Honestly.
Speaker 1:If there was a way, I would make it so that you um didn't have to worry about money and you could just make comics. I'm, uh, I'm looking for um a magic lamp, so if I find one of those, I'll I'll save you one of my wishes uh, the magic is universal basic income I'm gonna keep looking for that lamp okay I don't know if we're anywhere close to that in our current reality, but, you know, a girl can dream.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was really a pleasure to spend time with you, and I could I actually have so many more questions. Honestly, though, I think that they're more like millennial to zillennial. What, what generation are y'all? Gen z, gen z yeah, okay, so you're full z um, but I'll save those for another time. Absolutely we'll.
Speaker 3:We'll have to, we'll have to do a reprise. Maybe at the end of we'll we'll meet back up like oh, issue 30. Now that we've established a foothold, now we'll come back yeah, we would love that.
Speaker 2:Then I'll ask you all of my like. So what was, what was it like to draw a world where there's no technology? When you grew up with technology, that's like my haunting question, but we don't have to touch it now that you get that in the future, folks, so come back yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us, but also thanks everybody for listening to the zombie book club. Um, if you want to support us, you can leave us a rating or a review. Uh, we like reviews and ratings. We love them. They're delicious. You can also send us a voicemail with your mouth words. That would go into our ear holes and everybody else's who listens. That's also possible. You can leave up to three minutes at 614-699-0006. You can also follow us on Instagram Zombie Book Club Podcast or our Discord, the Brain Munchers Collective, where there's a whole bunch of people, a whole bunch of podcasts, writers and all kinds of things there. Links are in the description. They're always in the description Also. Please sign up for our newsletter, please.
Speaker 2:Yes, and go read. Days Worth living. Yes, it will make your day worth living. It will. That's my cheesy outro for you all today that's my answer.
Speaker 1:That was a good one. Is that the in the apocalypse?
Speaker 2:I'll read this comic and that'll be the reason to keep going exactly perfect and we'll we'll have to rethink every time we meet a kid to be like we can do this, we can take care of this kid in the apocalypse. I'm like, um, actually okay, I can take care of this kid in the apocalypse, but then you wouldn't be contributing to breaking the trope, dan, I don't don't be the reluctant man who looks after a kid.
Speaker 3:Reluctant father figure be the emotionally open available man.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can be that I'm over here like all right kid, I guess I'll keep you alive. And then, like six months later, it's like I can't live without you kid.
Speaker 2:That's what will happen. Do you think you all would be? As my last official question do you think you all would be reluctant caregivers, or would you be, Mr Martins?
Speaker 3:Middle of the road, I feel like I'm more in touch with my emotions, but I'm also. I have only one sibling and they're quite younger than I am, so that's really the only experience I have with younger children, so it would be a learning experience all around, I think.
Speaker 4:I don't know if I'd be a great caregiver. I'd want like kids to be kept safe, but I don't know if I'd be a great caregiver. I'd want like kids to be kept safe, but I don't know if I could keep them safe. Yeah, I'd want to be like I could shelter you, but that might not be the safest, but I understand where you're coming from.
Speaker 2:If it's a kid that needs a diaper change or like can't feed itself yet, it's gonna be real rough. But I'll try. Might sound crazy, but the end is not baby bye bye, bye don't die. Yes, bye everybody. Bye everyone bye.
