Zombie Book Club
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The Veterans March (March 14th) | Zombie Book Club Ep 87
The flu has knocked us down this week, but it's given us a perfect lens to examine what feels like America's own viral infection – fascism. With voices raspy from illness and minds sharpened by urgency, we dive into what's happening across our country right now, and why veterans like Dan are standing up against it.
This week's episode takes an unexpected turn from our usual zombie fare as we connect our personal battle with illness to the larger fight that's brewing nationwide. Recently, 3,000 veterans marched in DC with thousands more at state capitals across America, protesting the systematic dismantling of democracy and veteran support systems. Yet mainstream media remains silent as our government increasingly targets its own citizens.
Dan shares powerful reflections from his military service in Iraq, drawing disturbing parallels between what he witnessed overseas and what's happening at home. We explore the weight of the oaths we've taken – Dan as a soldier sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies "foreign and domestic," and Leah as a naturalized citizen who promised to bear arms for the United States when required by law. What do these commitments mean when the government itself becomes the threat?
Despite having the privilege to potentially escape to Canada, we're choosing to stay and fight. This episode is a testament to that commitment – a vulnerable, urgent conversation about what resistance looks like in these increasingly dangerous times, and why defending democracy isn't just a slogan but a duty.
Sign up for our newsletter through the link in our show notes. With communication channels increasingly controlled, we're creating backup systems to stay connected. Democracy needs defenders now more than ever – what role will you play?
Relevant Links:
Days Worth Living comic:
- NamiComi: https://namicomi.com/en/title/FtiXuz7k/days-worth-living
- GlobalComix: https://globalcomix.com/c/days-worth-living/chapters/en/1/1
- Comcraft: https://www.thecomcraft.com/comic-view-artist?title=Days+Worth+Living&comicId=14
ACLU on Protecting Civil Liberties
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Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is the flu, and I have it Me too. I'm Dan, and when I'm not coughing my brains out, I'm writing a book about a flu-like virus that kills you and resurrects you from the dead, and this week has been great research for what that experience would feel like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm Leah, and when my lungs are not so full of mucus, it sounds like there are 1,000 tiny kittens mewling inside of my lungs. I'm feeling major FOMO for having missed out on dance. That are in protest yesterday and that is my voice right now. This is Leah. Was that even intelligible, guys?
Speaker 1:this is Leah. Yeah, hi, it's not somebody standing in as Leah. That's what Leah sounds like now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had to cancel two recordings this weekend because I realized that when I laugh, I sound like I have emphysema. So, dan, you're not supposed to make me laugh today.
Speaker 1:I would never make you laugh.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:No funny business today.
Speaker 2:This is my serious face and Dan's going to have to delete face and Dan's going to have to delete. I just coughed a bunch so I'm assuming Dan's going to delete that from this episode so you don't suffer, I'll replace it with kitten sounds. Yeah, we're going to do a short episode today because I don't think anybody wants to hear me sound horrible and coughing into their ears.
Speaker 1:Yeah also, we just have no energy energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're recovering from the flu and things that was not uh noticeable. Yeah, where did we get the flu? From? Town meeting, which is a lovely vermont tradition where every first tuesday of march, uh, your little town has a little local meeting where you discuss your town budget, uh, any resolutions that you want to pass or vote on. It's quite quaint and lovely, uh, but we were in this very old building with zero air circulation and about 120 people. We were like one of maybe like five to ten people who didn't have gray hair and I'm graying, so I'm if I sure felt young there yeah, yeah, I felt like.
Speaker 1:I felt like one of the young people, yeah um.
Speaker 2:Two days later, I was absolutely destroyed by the flu there's.
Speaker 1:There's one more thing that people do at these town meetings, which is um share their diseases yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I gotta say it was. I've been thinking about masking more again and I said to you before we went. I was like I think I think we should mask because this is gonna be a lot of people and it's gonna be a small space. I didn't realize there was literally no air, no air movement.
Speaker 2:It was so stagnant in there and it was like shoulder to shoulder seating yeah and especially for me I've been thinking about it because they're at the place that we have like a little bougie convenience store for the second homeowners and the locals and the locals locals. Um, there's somebody that serves us, always wears a mask and I think like I don't know what his story is. I don't know if he has somebody in his life who is immunocompromised.
Speaker 1:Could be.
Speaker 2:Or simply is just somebody who thinks it's important to mask because COVID's not over and these things can be life-threatening. Flu absolutely kills people every year, but every time I see him I think, god, I probably should be doing that too, and I really, really think that we should have masked at this event, and I really, really think that we should have masked at this event and I regret it.
Speaker 2:You, think A little bit. Yeah, I've lost like two weeks of my life to being incredibly sick. I've had to cancel two interviews we were looking forward to. Yeah, I don't know when I'm going to sound like a normal person again, because allergy season's coming soon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just sick forever. Yeah, that's what we have to look forward to.
Speaker 2:Sick forever. But yeah, I think masking should be more cool.
Speaker 1:It should be more cool.
Speaker 2:And I hate that. I was a lemming and I just was like, well, nobody else will be masking, so I don't want to mask, I don't want to look stupid, yeah, and then I paid the price. But also I think of people who are immunocompromised and can't come to things like that and if we all just mask, they'd be able to be there. So that's an ethical thing that I'm grappling with right now. I'm curious if anybody out there is still masking and what your approach is with masking, because I see a lot of people in disability communities say like yo, y'all should all be masking still, and totally acknowledging that I have not put a mask on in years at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, after like the first SARS outbreak in the early 2000s, I always thought that it was weird that in Asian countries they were still masking, like it was totally normal to just be on a subway with like 100 people that were wearing surgical masks and I'm like, oh, that's weird, I wouldn't want to have to live there. But I mean now I'm like, yeah, they had it figured out as a society. They decided, hey, let's not get each other sick anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it seems really reasonable and it's embarrassing to admit that when other people people aren't doing it, it feels my resistance to it is stronger. Yeah, but I did see there are probably as many people with brown hair as there were people with masks there, so like five people wear masks and I thought like I could just have been one more of those people. So in the future when I go to events like that, I'm definitely gonna mask yeah, um great intro leah yeah.
Speaker 1:We release episodes every Sunday, so subscribe and wear a mask when you subscribe.
Speaker 2:Otherwise you might get this disease through your ear holes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wear a mask over your ears.
Speaker 2:This shit is so infectious and so brutal. I wouldn't be surprised if you all get sick just from listening to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You're sick now. You're infected, guys, and you know what. There's one more thing that you could do is you could sign up for our newsletter we have a newsletter yeah, we have a newsletter.
Speaker 1:Um, I talked about it in the last episode but it was right at the end. I don't know how many people heard that, but we have a newsletter and there's a link in the description. It'll take you to our secret website that I have done nothing with, but, right, there is a form to join our newsletter and that's important because, in this era of growing fascism, we don't know how long we have before our words don't reach your ears.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also get a ham radio. That's on our list too. Yeah, get a ham radio we can chat to. Yeah, also get a ham radio.
Speaker 1:That's on our list too, yeah we'll uh, we'll find a ham radio frequency that we talk to people on.
Speaker 2:I don't have a ham radio no we need one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll get one. It'll be great you could. You could listen to the live version on ham radio. That could be fun.
Speaker 2:We'll chat.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's allowed or not, you have to get a ham radio license.
Speaker 2:That's what you have to do. Why do you have to have a license to have a ham radio? It's just how they make you do it. Well, before we get into the current apocalypse, of which there are many always happening around the world, but to the United States right now, and canada and other places, we're gonna do a groan from the horde. We have, uh, like we said last, casual dead. We have a number of book pitches and comic pitches, and this is a great one called days worth living by rowan and erica, and we're actually gonna have them on the show in a about a month wow, yeah it's a great.
Speaker 2:I've already read the first comic. It's really great. Yeah, so we don't even need to hear the pitch, but you all need to hear the pitch so you can get excited.
Speaker 1:I have to hear that episode, have I?
Speaker 2:heard the pitch. You heard the little bit of the beginning when you were testing the audio. Okay, that wasn't enough. But we love these and we think we should put them at the front of the episode so that you get to hear them instead of listening to all the sad stuff first. What's it like to laugh with ease? Oh, that's nice. That sounds so lovely.
Speaker 1:Are you ready, dan? Oh, I'm ready. Are we getting in the elevator? I think we should go to floor 87, because that's this episode number.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's a good idea. We're going to trump Let or 87, because that's this episode number. Oh yeah, that's a good idea. We're going to trump let's imagine we're going to trump high rise. I don't want to, but we have a nefarious plan, oh, okay. Well, if we have a nefarious plan, then it's okay, and this comic book pitch is our hype track.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is the hype track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to get us ready to go and do some nefarious things that I won't say, because even when I'm joking, I don't think I can say them on air.
Speaker 1:No, no, we will disappear. Yeah, all right, let's hear it.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone, I'm Rowan and I'm happy to have the chance to tell you about our new zombie apocalypse comic series, days Worth Living.
Speaker 3:Set in Illinois during 2005, it follows a group of survivors navigating not just the threat of the undead, but also survival, trust and how humanity hangs on by a thread in the face of unimaginable chaos. There is no special forces main character with all the answers, nor any hope for a cure in sight, but there is one thing that keeps them going on the idea of family. Our team includes myself as the writer and colorist, and erica brand, an amazing illustrator that has brought a fresh and dynamic perspective to the genre. We know it'll resonate with anyone who loves their zombie stories, with a mix of science, mystery and, at its core, deeply flawed characters and their stories. You'll follow Joshua Martins, an elementary teacher left now in charge of his abandoned students, and our first three issues, which you for free on global comics, nami kami or comcraftcom. We have many more issues in the works and are eager to show them off to you. Thank you for listening and thank you to the zombie book club for giving us some of their time today thanks rowan and erica.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks that sounds great. Um, yeah, it sounds interesting. I would not want to be the elementary school teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm really curious why the choice to do 2005, which is now like vintage? That's 20 years ago, yeah. So I can't wait to ask you that, rowan. Why 2005? Yeah, what a quaint era.
Speaker 1:It's because it's so much simpler. Like as I'm writing my story, I'm like, how do I explain the internet and phones and all the technology? How do I make it go away? But if I go back to 2003, I'm like, oh well, the internet goes down the end. That's true.
Speaker 2:When the internet went down in 2003,. Just everyone was like, oh well, I guess the internet's down. What was the internet like in 2005? Okay, I was in university. Internet like in 2005? Okay, I was in university, you were in Iraq, afghanistan.
Speaker 1:Afghanistan in 2005? I didn't have any internet.
Speaker 2:Yes, you did, you wrote me emails.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't mine. Oh, it was somebody else's computer. I didn't have my own internet computer.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had to use my boss's computer when he left the office to check my emails and look at the internet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2005,. There was the war going on, a few of them, a few wars, yep, yep. I was in school and I'm pretty sure I had a flip phone, cell phone, oh yeah, yeah, I had one of those little Nokias.
Speaker 1:It didn't flip, but it looked like a I don't know. It was like a cylinder shape.
Speaker 2:What a quaint and lovely time I could play Snake on it. Hey look, I laugh without see. I have to temper my laughing.
Speaker 1:You know what, when I was in Afghanistan, I also didn't have a phone. I didn't have a phone, I didn't have a phone, I didn't have a computer. Nope.
Speaker 2:Just email, email back and forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm really excited to have Rowan and Erica on in a few weeks on the show. Thank you so much for sending us a book pitch. Cannot wait to chat with you and learn more about your story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds really good. I like it and learn more about your story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds really good. I like it Me too, and I love these pitches. They're really fun. I know you can't tell with my voice currently, but I am excited.
Speaker 1:Life updates. Leah, what have we been doing in life? I feel like we've talked about a lot of it. We've been sick. Yeah, we had the flu apocalypse. Yeah, it was horrible. I remember one day I didn't even want to get out of bed. I was too cold. I was having the cold chills. Yeah, I just laid in bed, shivering.
Speaker 2:And I laid on the couch and watched. Love is Blind, but mostly slept.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We slept a lot. I haven't been sick like that in probably a decade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:We're very lucky because we're hermits, so we don't have a lot of encounters with people who are sick. We don't have kids Everybody listening who has kids. I'm so sorry. I just it seems like y'all are sick all the time and I am myself a big baby and I just wanted to be pet and have people make me tea and feed me soup, which Dan did. There was probably two days that we were both really sick and like kind of just surviving, but literally it did sound like there were kittens inside of my lungs crying. I just was like completely knocked out, unable to do anything. I have not been to work for seven work days in a row. Thank God I have sick days and I work for a company that believes in people taking care of themselves when they're sick. But yeah, being sick sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at work I don't get sick days. So if I was, if it was during my work season, my boss would. He wouldn't like hold it against me that I'm taking days off for being sick, but I wouldn't get paid for those days.
Speaker 2:No, I got paid. I got paid to lie in bed and cry, yeah, but we made it through, yeah. It feels like a distant memory now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like a lot.
Speaker 2:Except for the fact that my voice sounds like this and I can't really laugh hard, which is really difficult because I live with two very funny people. Dan and Simon make me laugh all the time, and it's just annoying now because I'm like stop it, it hurts to laugh.
Speaker 1:Yesterday was my first day of feeling like I could do anything, and I was still like destroyed with exhaustion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you got up that morning and you're like I have to go, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had to go to the Veterans March. Yeah, tell me about that March 14th, they had a Veterans March on DC where 3,000 veterans protested. I, of course, could not go to Washington DCc, but I did go to my capital, montpelier, and I went there and there was about about 200 veterans there um and a lot of people turn out for vermont and a lot of people supporting veterans.
Speaker 1:Um, also, a high school showed up. That was kind of interesting because, like we were, we were kind of like at you know, we're, we're getting to that point where we're like, okay, well, we showed up, I guess we should go home now. And then all of a sudden, like all these kids start walking down the sidewalk at us. How many kids?
Speaker 1:oh, it was easily the same number of us stumbled inside the protest yeah, way to go high school kids and they came with their own signs and then they threw snowballs at each other for a little while and took pictures with veterans and stuff, which was really cool, and then a school bus came and picked them up.
Speaker 2:It makes me wonder if they were like allowed to go, or if they walked out of class.
Speaker 1:I think it was a field trip Because their teachers were there too. That's really cool. Yeah, because the teachers were the ones that asked us to go over and take pictures with them.
Speaker 2:We staged a walkout in our school when I was a teenager, I don't remember why Do you need a reason? Well, true, but I think there was a good reason, but I don't remember what it was.
Speaker 1:I remember there was a walkout when I was in high school and I don't remember what it was for, but I do remember that the general consensus is we don't care what the reason is, it's an excuse to leave. And everybody went to the parking lots and got in their cars and drove away and I had to be like can somebody drive me away? I don't have a car and the bus isn't going to take me.
Speaker 2:Dan, you want to know something totally random. I pulled up the plot summary for in the flesh that we're going to talk about in a minute and kleenex is being advertised to me oh, so it knows that you were sick. Yeah, uh, but yeah, why did you? Why was it so important for you to go yesterday?
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so many reasons. If people, if people are following what's happening, like I think you guys understand, but our government is is going down the road of fascism. It's taking away our rights, our very real rights, like freedom of speech. Yeah, for example, that one is right now being just torn to pieces. Basically, we have people in our government who are not elected, have nothing to do with our government and are overriding all of the branches of our government to impose their will. It's pretty fucked. Elon Musk is that person? One person is determining what we do as a country.
Speaker 2:I never wished for a random accident to happen to a person more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing very specifically that affects veterans is that they want to dismantle the VA. They want to dismantle the VA, they want to privatize VA healthcare, they want to take away veteran benefits and healthcare, and they've already started doing this. They tore down the veteran suicide hotline.
Speaker 2:They did. I didn't know that. Are you fucking kidding me?
Speaker 1:It was the first thing that they did, and then I don't know where it stands right now, but a judge ordered them to rehire the VA staff that they let go to reinstate the VA crisis hotline. But it's a fucking mess.
Speaker 1:It's bad, and I felt, as a veteran, I need to go in solidarity with other veterans and also I needed to make contact with other veterans because we're getting to a point where the united states is at war with its people yeah and everywhere else it's basically billionaires warring with everybody American billionaires to fight against tyranny, to tell them that they are fighting for freedom, for democracy, to protect the Constitution and our way of life and to protect the citizens of the United States of America, and then think that they're just going to sit down and just tap out when fascism shows up. It's just not going to happen. I also believe that we've received a secondary education from our enemies in the ways of how to fight an asymmetrical war against the United States. Can you explain what that means? Iraq and Afghanistan, where we had a very large military force in a country and they were fighting against us with small groups of civilians who were able to hide within the population.
Speaker 2:So you're telling me that we should take lessons from the folks who this country is called terrorists?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I prefer the term freedom fighters yeah partisans is what they've also been called. You can also look at other lessons, like the ira in in ireland, um, they'd been fighting an asymmetrical war for apparently 300 years, according to uh to um gerard clark, who uh, gave us a lot of information about Ireland last time we talked to him. Yeah, that was great Stuff I never knew and we were talking about. It's funny how we go to talk about zombies and we actually end up talking about history.
Speaker 2:That is this podcast. In a nutshell, zombies is just a thin veil for us to indoctrinate you with socialism and empathy Toxic empathy.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, empathy the worst thing that could ever happen to us, apparently. Yeah, I don't really have the brain power to go into a whole lot of it right now because I'm still in recovery from being sick, but I truly believe that we're in a war right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that the government does not represent the people, and the people need to fight the government and even the people that we think are on our side right now. They aren't standing up for us, so it's clear that we have to stand up for ourselves. These are the things that I've been writing about. I wish I had a finished book for people listening to be able to look at and understand what I'm saying, how. These are things that I've learned in my life by by going to afghanistan and going to iraq, like I've learned.
Speaker 1:I've learned these lessons over there when I saw their countries being ripped apart. You know, I've lived in the dystopian nightmares of our zombie apocalypses. I've been there. I've I've walked, I've walked down streets carrying a rifle. I've walked places with everything that I own on my back. I've done it in incredibly harsh terrain and environment, and I've done so in areas where everybody there wanted me dead. Yeah, and I know what that feels like and that's what I write about. I write about those feelings and the lessons that I learned through there. That's what I'm trying to portray with my book, and I wish that it was finished already so you could be reading that book and be like, yeah, that is like what's going on here. The types of fascism that you experienced overseas is what's happening here.
Speaker 2:Except for we're selling Teslas, teslars, teslars. Yeah, so much computer.
Speaker 1:So much computer in the Teslars. I mean, I'm looking in front of me and all of it is computer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go get it now at the White House, get your Tesla deals. So there's that happening. There's also some comedy in our fascism.
Speaker 1:I made some art this week Once I was feeling good enough to make some 3D art. I've been doing some art with the main character of my book the main character of my book and I get inspired to do art just by what I'm feeling at the time. To be perfectly honest, I'm not making anything that's supposed to advertise my book when it comes out, because what I made this week it's an image of my main character standing in front of a big concrete wall of a safe zone quote-unquote safe zone. And I explain in the post. I can't really recall word for word and I don't have. I'm not nearly eloquent enough to go into detail right now, but it's something that I planned for my second book, so it's not even timely that piece of art.
Speaker 1:But it's that feeling of going through so much and trying to survive in this highly toxic world and then getting to the place where they say this is where it's safe, this is where it's free, this is where it's safe, this is where it's free and it's this even more foreboding and restrictive environment that seems like a completely new world of peril. And those are the feelings that I feel lately is that we're on our own, we're surviving in this really fucked up world and we're on our own surviving in this really fucked up world and we're on our own and everything that says this is what you're supposed. This is where what you're supposed to do to be safe is somehow even more dangerous, and that's that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1:I love just listening to you dan um, what's interesting, and this is I see this is one of your life updates, leah, oh, really I think. I think we'll just hop into it. What's what's weird is that there's also, strangely, this feeling of hope lately. Um, hope as like as like, people come together to reject and resist the will of the government, the will of elon musk and Donald Trump. There are a lot of people resisting. Yeah, there's so many people resisting and they're doing an incredible job.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I talked about it on the podcast, but I have a spreadsheet. It's not as cool as Ollie's spreadsheet, ollie's zombie spreadsheet. If y'all don't know about it, you can, oliver. I don't have the link anymore, I don't think, or I've lost it, so maybe give it to us. Regardless, I have a spreadsheet that I'm making of just people who are heroic, who are doing things, who are fighting back, because it's what gives me hope and sometimes there's names associated, but, for example, the Veterans March. I don't know who organized it.
Speaker 1:No one did, indivisible did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a group did. Yeah, collective power did, and it really that is what's giving me hope is seeing all the resistance, weirdly not on the news, which is annoying. You won't find it on the news. Um, like nothing about it, like just it wasn't a blip on the radar. Your veterans protests, and there was one at washington dc. I think you said there was like 3 000, 3 000 veterans, yeah, and like I don't know what it's gonna take for it to be like?
Speaker 2:what does it need to be a million people, maybe, for that to make the news?
Speaker 1:there's been protests in every state capital yeah, simultaneous protests 50 states across the us and they're not reporting it. There have been people protesting outside of Tesla. Tesla, sorry. And the only time that it really makes the news is when somebody comes by and throws a bunch of Molotov cocktails at a Tesla or spray paints a dick on it.
Speaker 2:Bless that person Speaking of heroes they don't know the names. Also, the person who lit a CEO's house on fire, bless you. This is the world that we live in. Heroes they don't know the names.
Speaker 1:Also, the person who lit a ceo's house on fire bless you. Um, this is the world that we live in, where you know, up up is down, black is white, wrong is right, yeah, so, if I'm understanding the logic here, to set fire to a ceo's house or draw a dick on a tesla, even though they say that's terrorism? Um, isn't it the right thing? Is based on the logic here am is, am I to believe that doing terrorism is is now the right thing to do if everything is upside down?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think the this could lose us some listeners, but I think when you, for example, call folks who are fighting against the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan's freedom fighters, I think that that's an important statement.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Again, not pro-Taliban here, okay, not pro-oppression of any kind, and I've always been able to understand why people fight back in those contexts and that there really aren't any other options. So, like you said that, um, what's the word you use for asymmetrical warfare? I think that is where we're at here inside of the united states, and it feels really scary and dangerous to say that. I don't want to say that I'm for these things, because I constantly think about my right to be here as a citizen and we're seeing with mahmoud khalil as the first canary in the coal mine, just a spokesperson for palestine from columbia university, being taken from their home, um, from their pregnant wife because they spoke for, spoke for palest.
Speaker 1:Taken illegally yeah illegally.
Speaker 2:They have their green card, but there's some sort of weird loophole language about it which is they don't align with the foreign policy of the United States government, so that gives them the right to do these things, and that's really scary.
Speaker 2:But what's also wonderful is to see the courts fight back, in that we know where Mahmoud is now and we know that he's relatively safe. That we know where Mahmoud is now and we know that he's relatively safe because we know where he is and they stopped him from being deported. So it's a weird time because there's a lot of things I want to say and I think we talk around them and I know that we have to fight back and we have to say the difficult things because we can't. If we don't, then we can't. We're going to let those people win. But also, like, how do we do that in a way that is safe for us is what I don't know. I mean, you and I are just little people, we're little pawns in a much bigger thing, and so I'm not saying like we're on the target list right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but literally any of the things that we say could be interpreted and the meanings changed if they decided they wanted to throw us a party Me just saying I'm happy about somebody lighting a CEO's house on fire is probably enough yeah, honestly.
Speaker 2:It is enough which the veterans protest does give me hope, because I think I was seeing you really struggle in the beginning with this and feeling alone and feeling that like sense of duty as a veteran, and now you know there's lots of people literally like you who have seen the same things as you. They're on the same side as you and you're connected to people now through this protest that you weren't before. Do you want to talk about that, as you and you're connected?
Speaker 1:to people now through this protest that you weren't before. Do you want to talk about that? Uh, yeah, real quickly. I first I want to say that, um, a few months ago, and that not a few months, a few weeks ago, I was on, I was on blue sky um link in the description. I'm on blue sky, so, uh, and I was talking about I have this uh pinned post. It's pinned now. I hope it's pinned for a while in the future. And I'm talking about veterans and their duty to disobey, their duty to uphold the oath that they take, which I see as this blank check that includes up to your life to protect the people of the United States, and there's no expiration on that blank check. It's, it's still an effect, I believe, when you take that oath yeah.
Speaker 1:And we take it very seriously, and so on and so forth. And I had this really long post If you want to read it, it's on blue sky and somebody responded and they said, well, veterans voted for Trump, so forth. And I had this really long post if you want to read it, it's on blue sky. Um, and somebody responded and they said, well, veterans voted for trump, did they not? And like, that is kind of the feeling that people have, is that all veterans are right wing, all soldiers are right wing, so they all voted for trump. And seeing all these people come, come out, and not only were they like, yeah, this, the, the, the regime that's controlling the United States right now fucking sucks and we need to take them down, but also they were cheering at things like, uh, like trans rights or human rights. You know they, they were on board with everything. They were as as left as we are, and I always knew that. But it does sometimes get lost in the message that there is one kind of veteran, there is one kind of soldier.
Speaker 2:And it's just not true.
Speaker 1:There's definitely a stereotype. Yeah, things about veterans is that they are statistically more civically active than your average citizen. You'll find that government office holders tend to often be veterans, and my feeling on this is that we've seen fucked up. We went and we saw the incredible highs and the beauty of the world outside of our small town that we were desperate to escape from. And we saw the world and we also saw the deepest, darkest parts of humanity. And when we came back, we were left with this feeling of obligation to make our world better as best as we could. To make our world better as best as we could. And sure, there's plenty of shitheads out there that their only takeaway is Muslims bad, but they were never going to change. They lack the ability to self-reflect, and you can see those people in our society. So the same percentage of people who are, just like everything is black and white, good and evil, christian or Muslim, the same number of those people exist as veterans, as do people who are civically minded and are capable of critical thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I used to work at a veteran serving nonprofit, I had this revelation moment where I was just like veterans are the most diverse minority group in the United States because they come from all walks of life. I think one of the defining factors is that many of them come from poverty, but it's an incredibly diverse group. Even, like you said, when there was don't ask, don't tell, there were still members of the lgbtq plus community in the military.
Speaker 2:They just couldn't talk about it yeah uh, and I'm not saying I understand what it's like to make the choice to do that, but I, and I think a lot of people, look at veterans in one of two ways. They either idealize them or idolize them and look at them as like, oh, thank you for your service, like you're the greatest thing ever, you know, thanks for fighting for our freedom. Aha.
Speaker 1:You can thank us after we save democracy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seriously, or they're demonized. You know they're looked at as like the same as being a cop. And I think that there is some difference there, because once you're enlisted, you're enlisted, you can't just leave, you can't quit. And also, again, when you look at the patterns of people who sign up to be in the military, a lot of them are coming from a situation where it is their best option.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and does that make it okay? No, but we all make really ethically questionable decisions in this world that we live in. Questionable decisions in this world that we live in. And the truth is is that you are folks who are trained to fight and you've seen some shit, and I think one of the things that makes you remarkable a lot of veterans remarkable, especially folks who have been part of foreign wars is you understand the value of a life, you understand what death means, and so you take that really seriously when you say it's time to fight.
Speaker 2:And I appreciate that. And so it's really fucking disheartening to me to hear that they tried to pull down the suicide hotline, because, even with all of the things that the VA was getting right, veterans are statistically the highest group that's likely to die by suicide on a daily basis, even more than they initially estimated.
Speaker 2:I was part of a every 20 seconds yeah, I was part of a veteran's suicide study, a national one many years ago, and when they actually started looking at the data, it's it's worse than what they said. I don't have the numbers in front of me so I'm not going to pretend, but we had a partnership with the Department of Defense. We were able to actually look at the data of death by self-harm and death by suicide, and it's worse than even what you hear on the radio and in the news, because these are folks who have. You know, you've seen some really fucked up shit and so you know more than anybody else it means to have, uh, the privilege of living a good life, and how scary it is this time that that could be taken away. Um, and even when you have all those things, you have to live with the things that you did, things that you saw people do the things that we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Uh, one of the things that bothers me the most about Iraq is that we went in guns blazing and we were fighting people who were defending their country. Like you know, I fought in the time before, you know, insurgency. We weren't fighting insurgency when I went in. It was a more symmetrical war. When I was there, it was us versus the Iraqi Republican Guard. They had tanks, they had RPGs, they had rifles, they were an organized military, though they still didn't stand a chance.
Speaker 1:For Baghdad was an intensely bloody battle where it was a last-ditch effort. As we were coming into the city of Baghdad, as we were reaching Saddam Hussein's palace, and on their news they were saying that we weren't even there, that we were lying, but we were like a quarter mile away. But that battle, they told the soldiers of the Iraqi Republican Guard, the officers of their army, told their soldiers that their families were being held hostage by the government and that if they didn't fight, their families would be executed by the government. Who would win? They told them that they would win. It's just a matter of time. They're going to fight back the infidel United States and then, when they won, their families would be executed if they didn't fight did very similar to Russia's way of engaging.
Speaker 1:Battle is just waves and waves of soldiers, regardless of tactics or their ability to succeed in the mission. They were just running at us. Half of them had RPGs and half of them had AK-47s versus tanks, m1 Abrams and Bradleys and up-armored Humvees that you know were kitted out with .50 caliber machine guns, and we had trucks that had 20 millimeter Gatling guns that fired airburst rounds, and on top of that, we had Apaches in the sky that could see everything that was going on and just rain down 30 millimeter hell. On top of that, we had Apaches in the sky that could see everything that was going on and just rain down 30 millimeter hell on top of them and then fire hellfire missiles at them to finish them off. We had bombs that they couldn't even hide from underground and, as they just came at us, wave after wave, like 5,000 of them had us surrounded Wow, they were just dying. It was just a wave of death. And they did that to protect their country from us, the invading force. We invaded them. They were protecting the lives of their families and their friends and their country that they live in and everything that they held dear to them and they were doing it with their
Speaker 1:lives. And I cannot agree with anyone who thinks that we did that for the right reasons, you know. Especially you know they told us that we were doing it for freedom and democracy. We had to deliver the Iraqi people to democracy and that was the way that we were going to do. It is by just killing them until they agreed to be democracy and democratic. Yeah, and
Speaker 1:it's. It's hard to take all of that and know the truth that we were actually doing it for oil, not for us, not oil, not so that we could put cheaper gasoline in our cars, but to increase the profits of billionaires in America who already had billions of dollars so they could have more billions of dollars, sell us even more expensive gasoline while they were buying cheaper crude oil and then fast forward to now. To then take away our rights and to make citizens disappear in our country and to do everything they can to erode democracy is a slap in the face. I knew that we weren't fighting for the things that they told us we were fighting for, but they told us those were the values of America. And when they tell you that these are the values of America, and then they do exactly the opposite. I feel like it's our responsibility to say no, this is what you said and this is what it's going to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting to hear that sense of duty in your voice. And you all can't see Dan's face, but I can. I really love this man. I just want to say that for the record. He's a very special person and he's one of many who, I think, are going to really do everything they can. I wanted to read the Oath of Enlist for the US Army to you, okay, and for everybody else, so that you understand what Dan thought he was signing up for when he joined. I do solemnly, I, daniel, dan, do solemnly, literally as a blank this is from the Army military website I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same here's the rough part now, dan and that I will obey the orders of the president of the united states and the orders of the officers appointed over me according to the regulations and the uniform code of military Military Justice. So help me, god.
Speaker 1:Yes, the Code of Uniform Military Justice, ucmj, article I want to say 92, talks about your duty to follow lawful orders from your officers and from the President of the United States. And the key there is lawful. You are required to follow lawful orders. Unlawful orders, you have a duty to disobey those orders. When you are given an unlawful order, they talk about this a lot less because they don't want to encourage people not following their orders, but when you are given an unlawful order, it is your duty to say no do you disobey, and I don't know the details of this.
Speaker 2:You could probably tell us a little bit more, dan, about um. When trump went into office, basically just ousting a lot of military leadership that probably would have said no. They did say no and that's why they got ousted. That's why they're gone. Yeah, so it's a dangerous time, but I think you've actually caused me to think about my oath that I had to make, too, really differently because of how seriously you take this one that I had to do last May oh, the innocent days of May 2024. It's a different time.
Speaker 1:I also want to point out, too, that we didn't take an oath to a dictator and we didn't take an oath to a king. No, and that is how Trump views himself. He wants to be a dictator, he wants to be the king. He says I am the law. What he represents is not the president of the United States. If you don't believe me, ask Elon Musk's kid who the president of the United States is.
Speaker 2:I don't know how you're going to cut those things out. I want to read the oath that I had to swear to yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is interesting because most citizens don't swear an oath unless they take public office, but as somebody who became a us citizen, you are required to take an oath yeah, and I've really been contemplating it a lot, but on two levels, like one, what does it really mean to me, um, in this time?
Speaker 2:and two, just knowing that I signed up for some things that, in this context, make me really fucking scared, um, that, like you said, um, citizenships from birthright, which is in question anyways. I don't know, um, who knows what's going on there, uh, but it's, it's intense, and I I'm gonna try my best to live into this in a way that I think is for the best of this country. I'm not proud of this country's origins. I'm not even saying that this country and the way that it's currently formed is that great. The Constitution is the best thing that was ever written. I'm really clear. I don't think that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a work in progress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a work in progress. Yeah, it's a work in progress, but I do feel allegiance to this land and I have made the choice to stay. We could leave. We have an immense privilege that we could leave, and I want to stay here and I want to fight for what we have, um, and for this place and for the people that have come to love and call my home. I've lived here most of my adulthood, so this is the oath that I took. I love and call my home. I've lived here most of my adulthood, so this is the oath that I took.
Speaker 2:I hereby declare on oath that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen, and that I will support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Speaker 2:So, similar to what you had to do and I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States. I guess that means you're getting your handgun, dan, yeah, when required by law, and that I will perform non-combatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by law, and that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law, and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. So help me, god. So this is what I mean when I say like I'm really feeling the heaviness of this, because it's saying that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law, I'll join the army, I'll bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law and I'll perform noncombatant service in the armed forces when required by the law. And we're in a time now where I feel like any one of those things could be called in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's something that birthright citizens of the United States did not have to do, unless we get the draft again. Yeah, uh, citizens of the United States did not have to do, unless we get the draft again. Yeah, um, males at the age of 18 had to, uh, had to join, join the draft.
Speaker 3:Um.
Speaker 1:I forget exactly what it's called Uh the uh selective service um, which I had to do too, which I thought was weird because I'm like I'm joining the army.
Speaker 2:And they joining the army and they're like you still have to sign up for selective service. It's a weird world out there, uh, but when you swear to something, it's, it means something yeah and I do still love canada and I do have the right to be a canadian citizenship citizen, but I I my allegiance when I did that. It meant something to me. I want to stay here. Yeah, I want to be a part of making the, the place that I've chosen to call home, a good place for everybody to live. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I sometimes wonder if I could also be held under fire when they're talking about birthright citizenship because I was not born in the US. Yeah, A lot of people don't know that I was born in Athens, Greece.
Speaker 2:Deport him.
Speaker 1:Okay, don't know that. I was born in athens, greece. Deport him. Okay, my biological father was a member of the us navy and I was born overseas. Um, and I lived in a small town called neomachary, neomachary, greece, just outside of athens, and that's where I was born and until I joined the army, I think, I held dual citizenship between the Republic of Greece and the United States. I don't know how that works anymore. I think I had to denounce it. But, greece, let me know if you want me back.
Speaker 2:Be nice to visit one day, yeah.
Speaker 1:Can we? Can we trade our house for a nice Greek Palazzo or something?
Speaker 2:I don't want to leave. I like it here.
Speaker 1:It's a little boy, it's nice in Greece, just saying.
Speaker 2:It's feeling increasingly irrational, but I'm like no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's how I've been feeling too, too, because, like, because you are a Canadian citizen, like we kind of have a bit of an out if things get really bad. Yeah, it's a little bit more complicated for me and even more complicated for my brother, simon, who we would want to bring with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not going without him, but you know there's a possibility going without him, but you know it's there's. There's a possibility. There's a possibility for escape from a totalitarian regime that wants to kill us and tell us that we're terrorists and also annex canada. So yeah, we'll see about that, yeah, um, but I, I, I feel like it's it, like it's my duty to stay in spite of the US government. I feel like I have to stay here and make it hard for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what I feel.
Speaker 2:Same, speaking of trauma responses or what your gut reaction is in this case, it's fight for me and it is for you too. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I've never wanted to fight harder in my life, me neither. Now, when I leave the house, I bring my nazi punch and gloves he does it's not a joke. Yeah, we were gonna talk about some other stuff today, but we, this, this, uh, this conversation, we can we? We didn't even get through get through our life updates, did we? We didn't?
Speaker 2:I don't, you know, I, I actually have a backlog of things I want to do in our casual deads, like talk about in the flesh, even though we didn't. I don't, you know, I I actually have a backlog of things I want to do in our casual deads, like talk about in the flesh, even though we didn't get to finish it, because I won't support amazon anymore, um, and other zombie stuff. But like, even when you were just describing your experience in iraq, I'm like that sounds like a fucking zombie horde coming at you, except that they're real people who are sentient and we're also afraid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were terrified. Yeah, they were so close that we could hear them yelling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the podcast continues to evolve. We're going to keep having guests on. They're going to talk about books. We are going to talk about movies and stuff. I really want to talk about being fat in the apocalypse sometime. That's on my list. Next week coming out is an interview with Jenna Crisfanti on Talc, a Haitian zombie story, which is a really good episode but also talks about the reality of our time. And for those of you who are sticking it through and listening to this horrible version of my voice, I don't even know why you're listening. But you know what I've never known why you were listening to be honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just me and Dan talking to each other, just chatting. Yeah, but I hope that you're well out there. If you took an oath, like what Dan and I did, I wonder what you're contemplating. And if you didn't, what does it mean to you to live in the United States today? That's my question that I want to leave with. What does it mean for you to be here?
Speaker 1:Also, if you're not in the United States, how does it feel watching the United States right now? Yeah, let us know. Do you want to punch all of us? Yeah, come, punch us. Yeah, please punch us, punch a.
Speaker 2:Nazi first. Oh, oh. I shouldn't do it. I'll just say this. I'll end with polymorphously. Who wrote the zombie re-erection? Only sex can save us. Dm'd us recently and, because of all of the ridiculousness, has a new book idea. I don't have permission because I haven't asked if we can share it, but it involves canada and I'd really like to read it. That's's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can't wait.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we need it more than ever, bali. We need ludicrous smut to reflect the times, so we can laugh and feel horny. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening guys to the Zombie Book Club. Thanks for listening to the previous episodes as well, especially this episode, as we're sick, low energy, angry about the government and don't have a whole lot of zombie talk in us right now, because our current apocalypse is so much worse, um, and it's, it's, it's getting worse.
Speaker 2:Might sound crazy, but the end is nigh, baby, bye, bye. Bye, don't die, you're welcome. Bye, everybody, bye.
