Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
"Zombie: Survival Infection" with special guest James S. Cole | Zombie Book Club Ep 84
In this episode, we delve into the world of "Zombie: Survival Infection" with its creator, James S. Cole. James shares insights into the game's unique mechanics, the upcoming expansion "Mortal Reckoning," and his creative journey from childhood inspiration to game designer. We discuss the balance of strategy and morality in the game, the challenges of game development, and the community that has grown around this survival horror experience.
Contact Information for James S. Cole:
- Kickstarter: Zombie: Mortal Reckoning Expansion
- Game Website: Zombie: Survival Infection
- Website: James S. Cole Design & Illustration
- Instagram: @james_s_cole_illustration
- Facebook: James S. Cole Illustration
Relevant Links:
- Game Rules: Zombie: Survival Infection Rules
- Gamefound Campaign: Zombie: Survival Infection on Gamefound
- Sign up for our Newsletter!!!! --- https://zombiebookclub.io/newsletter/
- Join the Brain Muncher’s Zombie Collective: https://discord.gg/rn3nPDa4CB
- ZBC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zombiebookclubpodcast/
- Dan's BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/danthezombiewriter.bsky.social
- Zombie Book Club Voicemail: (614) 699-0006
- Zombie Book Club Email: ZombieBookClubPodcast@gmail.com
- Our Secret Website That Isn't Finished: https://zombiebookclub.io
- Our Merchandise Store (Where you can find our Evil Magic Chicken Zombie Shirts): https://zombie-book-club.myspreadshop.com
Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is a game, and the game is a high stakes battle for survival against hordes of the undead and your so-called allies. I'm Dan, and when I'm out fortifying my bunker and questioning every life choice that led me here, I'm writing a book about the zombie apocalypse and how it's just an excuse for people to stop being polite and give in to their ugliest instincts, and also how compassion and community is the only way to survive. I like that part, me too.
Speaker 2:I is the only way to survive. I like that part, me too, I'm. I'm glad to hear that I'm leah, and today we have with us james s cole. Illustrator, writer, graphic designer and creator of zombie survival infection, a card game where you not only have to fight off zombies but also, potentially, other survival camps, which goes directly against your dreams of compassion and community. Dan, or maybe?
Speaker 1:there could be in this game I read the rules.
Speaker 2:It looks like you are allowed to and you know. Be friends, yes, people, but let's stop talking about the game about james, and say hello, james, also known as jim, how are you doing? Welcome to the show I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Great thanks for having me, uh and I'm. I'm here to wreck your camp and destroy your community, not my camp. I use my community to build that.
Speaker 2:We have plans for people like you in the apocalypse, James.
Speaker 1:That's right, we got plans for you too. Yeah, I'm going to be so compassionate, I'm going to be compassionate all over the place. We have some questions for you, sure, very important questions. Some might say, uh, that they're the most important questions, but the first thing that comes to your mind, uh, we're just gonna rattle through them and uh, okay, and then we'll judge you based on them this is a first, yeah, personality test.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is science. We ask every guest. We're collecting data.
Speaker 1:You got the uh, the data agreement right, yes, yeah, yes, all right, I signed it with somebody else's name, so that is acceptable, all right. First question Do you prefer fast or slow zombies? So if it becomes a reality which here's to hoping I personally like the maggot-covered, pushed-out-of-the-grave really slow, crusty ones. Those are definitely my personal favorite. I know that is obviously the least likely scenario, but that's my personal favorites.
Speaker 2:I'm okay with that, minus the maggot covered part.
Speaker 1:If we could just avoid the maggots oh man, the maggots and flies are how they're going to transmit. Yeah, maggots gotta eat too.
Speaker 2:I mean that's true. Okay, I'll have compassion for the maggots today um, all right, so you got.
Speaker 1:You got your slow zombies, uh, and you've got a choice. You know some somebody sent you an email. You've got a choice you can work a 40-hour work week or you can have the zombie apocalypse. Which do you choose? Oh, but without a question, I'm going the zombie apocalypse because, well, I mean 40-hour work weeks, about half of what I normally work with.
Speaker 2:I'm always like creating and working.
Speaker 1:So, ooh, yeah, I'm still going to go with, I'll go with the zombie apocalypse. I I plan on making myself a leader and letting everybody else do the work, and I'll just tell them that I'm the brains of the operation. So life's going to get significantly easier for me. So, yeah, that's that's my goal. Significantly easier for me. So, yeah, that's uh, that's my goal. Hopefully that works out. That's how people feel about uh, about, about, uh, following leaders, right, right, some people get crazy ideas about leaders. Also, also true, I would say I do have somewhat of a team together. Uh, my superstar, really, uh, he doesn't, I mean. Also true, I would say I do have somewhat of a team together my superstar, really, he doesn't. I mean, he knows he's my superstar, but I haven't sold him completely on it which is my buddy, who unfortunately has zero sense of smell.
Speaker 2:Oh me too.
Speaker 1:So I'm like, yeah, I'm like, dude, you are our number one supply runner. And he's like, and I was like, yeah, but you got first crack at anything we pick up. Yeah, it's you, you got it. What you bring back extra is all good. And I'm like you'll be set up in the community and you get whatever you need. And he was like I don't know if I'm still on with this plan I like, I like that the idea that the person without a sense of smell is your, is your runner.
Speaker 2:But do they have? A gag reflex and like do they?
Speaker 1:do they enjoy the sight of maggot? Maggot infested flesh?
Speaker 2:He's, he's pretty resilient, so I think, I think he's going to do well, I think either way.
Speaker 1:I just got to smell it.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is not on our list, but I need to know what would be your um rebellion, rebellion quelling technique, if folks rose up against you.
Speaker 1:uh I think I'd have. I, I definitely would have some moles, oh yeah, uh, people that would even, you know, have throw out a little bit of dissent and then see who picks up on it. So, yeah, I mean, I sent you that graphic that kind of resembled a little bit of Negan in me, and I'm also in the coming up expansion not this one, but the one after where you actually get your leaders and you can choose your leaders. I am the brutal leader because, again, that was that's just going to be my. My technique is going to be more of a Negan technique, about 75% Negan. I'm going to take out the worst qualities but still keep that you know that edge.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that I like Negan. I'm going to go on record.
Speaker 1:I also agree.
Speaker 2:There's some things about him that are deeply problematic, but I think that there's a part of him that makes a lot of sense, but that's what I do when he, when he crushed the skinwalkers beautiful, yeah, absolutely beautiful. So yeah, that was, that was, that was a great time and he loves kids, but not in a creepy way which makes him lovable, right, yeah, right, um, all right, so you've uh, it's the zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 1:You chose correctly, you got the zombie and he loves kids, but not in a creepy way which makes him lovable. Right, yeah, right, all right. So it's the zombie apocalypse. You chose correctly. You got the zombie apocalypse. You got everything that you wanted. You're slow shamblers with the maggots. It's a zombie apocalypse. No 40-hour work weeks. What is your weapon of choice? I'm going to go with I.
Speaker 1:I'm not not going to have to fight very often again being in a, in a you know position of leadership here, but I'm going to go with the uh the double barreled side by side.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's only got two shots so I better have some, some good backup. But it doesn't require aiming and makes a God awful mess and I'm close, it's a. It's a guaranteed kill, so I'm going gonna go with that. Oh, and it's intimidating? Yeah, it is, certainly it's. It's a. You don't want to be looking down the barrel of one. Um, I've always loved the double barrel, like when I was a kid uh, doing small game hunting, that's. That's what I used was a sears. Side by side double barrel.
Speaker 2:Uh, back right, made guns I'm gonna ask them my dumb question, number one of this episode, since I am not well versed in games or guns uh, is the shotgun that we bought a double barrel? No, it's a pump action oh cool, so the thing underneath is the tube that you load the shells into cool, that was our pandemic purchase and we've never used it, thankfully, yeah it's not too late.
Speaker 1:It's not a bad pandemic purchase so yeah, um, all right.
Speaker 1:So you know you're doing pretty good with your, with your double barrel um against these, these rotting um maggot coveredcovered skin skeletons, and you just happened to come across a warehouse, an unlimited supply of a shelf-stable food item that would last you the rest of your life. It's impossible to count the amount. What do you hope is in that warehouse? What is your choice, man, shelf stable, that's really good. I mean, I just heard this was your second last podcast. The author his name, slips my brain.
Speaker 1:He was the yeah, with the peanut butter, that's a very good one. Yeah, definitely. Again, it's very stable. You can mix it with a lot of things, that's true. And it has a small amount of sugar, in case you need a little bit of a boost, but isn't a lot of sugar where you're going to be sawing off people's feet in the camp or anything like that. It's not like twinkies, like you're just feeding the camp winkies non-stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that wouldn't be a good dropping like flies.
Speaker 1:They can't even outrun the shamblers. No, yeah, so no twinkies. Uh, peanut butter would be great. Um, obviously I should probably come up with a smarter choice, but that's the one that's sticking with me as well I think it's a good choice.
Speaker 2:I think it's actually the best choice. No offense to everybody else who picks something different, but I think it's the best choice from a from a like a food perspective of high fat, lots of protein, a little bit of salt and sugar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah a little bit of salt will help you out too, depending where you live, where you actually need salt to retain water, yeah, so and then when we're getting very little water.
Speaker 1:You're going to want to actually retain water. So yeah, yeah, and then you just kind of like go out and supplement that with you. Know, you forage you, you scavenge um. One thing that I that I remember a long time ago, these, uh special forces guys, they would, instead of carrying bulky mres in their bag that were very heavy, they would just have a small jar of peanut butter and they would actually mix like a green um supplement powder into it. That's like a plant-based supplement powder that just had like vitamins and extra minerals and stuff. Okay, mix it in and that's that'll keep them gone for a couple days, right I thought you were gonna go soylent green there for a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they start turning people into food in the job and mixing it with the peanut butter so it tasted better I mean that would be more appealing to me than like seeing chunks of human in a stew you don't want a finger popping up in your, in your bowl.
Speaker 2:No, um, I want to talk about something happier, which is james. You mentioned. You love to mix cocktails, especially old fashions and margaritas. Which cocktail would you recommend for the zombie apocalypse specifically?
Speaker 1:I'd go, uh, I would go, with old-fashioned, because you got, you know, the, the burnt kind of quality of the whiskey, but you're also getting a good amount of sugar. And, uh, you could, you could drink an old-fashioned when it's warm out and when it's cold out, it doesn't matter where, margarita, you want it to be warm, not that that it has to be, but you know so, and zombies are pretty much old fashioned.
Speaker 1:I'd be terrified of mariachi zombies which, dear God, just popped in my head I think would be an awesome thing. Yeah, mariachi zombies.
Speaker 2:That'll show up in a future expansion Bonus. That was the bonus question. This is the bonus to the bonus Cause. It just occurred to me how could you use the shelf stable peanut butter in a cocktail? Is there anything you could do?
Speaker 1:Oh, dear God, don't do your peanut butter whiskey. It's not good, it's good. It's like a, like a sipping novelty and like a chocolate teeny with some peanut butter whiskey Also good. But I'm going to go like a chocolatini with some peanut butter whiskey also good. But uh, I'm gonna go with no, no peanut butter. If you're a real freak, okay. Okay, you know, we'll rub the peanut butter on the rim, which just got really weird. We'll rub the peanut butter on the rim and you can partake however you want refreshing?
Speaker 2:I will take your word for it and not try that.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's not, it's not good. Oh boy, when did you first become hooked on the undead? You know your first love for the zombie apocalypse genre? Sure, I mean there there's. There were a few things um, one one that really, when I was really young, uh, I was in kmart, of all places, that dates me a little bit there.
Speaker 1:Um, I've been in the game and I saw this yeah, okay, I was in the game art when they were hot. Yeah, so it's a little pricey for my family's, but okay, uh, there was a book I just saw, randomly called the Transylvanian Tourist Guide or the Tourist Guide to Transylvania. In it was all these like dark illustrations. Some of them were like weird fantasy and made like zero sense at all. But there was an artist in there, and what was his name? I think it's Les Edwards. I could be wrong, but he had a bunch of illustrations of the undead. One which was like this zombie looking guy was pulling a mask off, coming out of the sewer.
Speaker 2:There was another one.
Speaker 1:It was up close where he actually had some maggots coming out of some eyes and you know openings, and I was like I don't know what this is, but I need it. Like I don't know what this is, but I need it, and I asked my mom to buy it and she flat out said, well, we don't have the money right now, which you know was probably a polite way to say no. And I kept asking for it. And for Easter I didn't get any candy, but I got that book and I loved it. It was like instantly turned me on to this whole thing. Years later. Then I started getting into other things like role playing games. You know, horror movies started really turning me on, not turning me on. Yeah, I'll edit that out.
Speaker 1:No, we won't, I'll leave it, it's good, it's good. So other things kind of creeped in. I was, I got, I really liked the artwork of Vincent Locke, who was one of the original creators of Dead World. Okay, I mean, dead World went on a wild journey and a million people worked on it and it got sold and resold, but anyways, vincent Locke's artwork really stuck with me.
Speaker 1:Then in high school I was lucky to go to high school with some of the guys from Cannibal Corpse and they always needed flyers and at that point I was into drawing zombies and stuff and I was like, let's do this. So I made a couple of flyers back from them, which I was also lucky to grow up in, buffalo, which was one of the one of the central hubs of death metal coming out, you know, very end of the 80s, early 90s. So I didn't. That all played into that. Me and a buddy made a fanzine for you know the, the scene we got to interview corpse and, uh, also sepplatero back in the day, which was pretty cool because let me tell you, I can understand Max Cavallaro, the singer. I can understand him better when he sings than when he was talking. This is tough, but yeah, that was a super, super long story.
Speaker 2:Short that was that's what got me in. That was my experience and I've I've loved it ever since so your first exposure to zombies was through art, and then, when did you actually start drawing zombies?
Speaker 1:I mean, that was again. It was those flyers. And now my mind is blanking um, because I know I gave you guys some notes and now I'm like, oh God, am I hitting all the points for my notes? Yeah, it would be on those flyers, on my notebooks. I went to a Catholic school and my mom got to talking where they thought I was not right.
Speaker 2:Did they think you were possessed, James?
Speaker 1:not right possessed, but this was also. I'm old enough that you know I was. I lived through the saint panic panic yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Dungeons Dragons was the devil and I started playing. We mean, a buddy just had our 40th anniversary last year of playing dungeons dragons, so that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, and we still do, uh, almost every sunday, so that's so cute. You know, I love how those panics tend to like you know that they're like you better not play that it's, it's made by satan. And then it's like hmm, where can I get one of these?
Speaker 2:this actually is really kind of fun to hear your origin story, because my nephew, who is eight, is obsessed with drawing zombies and he drew me a bunch of zombies actually this winter. That's what we bonded over Zombies, ok. And my mom, who I think still has the satanic panic maybe a little bit, is like do you think Cameron's OK? I'm like, yes, yes, he just likes horror, it's fine. Also, he wrote he drew jeff bezos as a zombie and it was like the greatest thing I've ever seen, fully unprompted, just decided to draw he just handed it to us.
Speaker 1:He's like, I'm like, how do?
Speaker 2:you even know who jeffrey bezos is you're eight man, but I'm just thinking of something yeah, I think when he eventually comes to visit us here in Vermont because he's in Canada I'm going to show him your game, or maybe I'll bring it to Canada. I think he would love to see it and it might inspire him to keep drawing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe show him the coloring book, because I don't know. Did you get the coloring book? We didn't.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to get it for him. Him, no, I sent it to you. You did, stupid Amazon. Oh they suck. Yes, we just anyways the book, but maybe it's still coming because, like I said, we have really slow mail where we are that might have been sent in packages yeah, horse and buggy.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I didn't. I didn't. It was coming directly from Amazon. I had it shipped out, so I'll have to double check anyway in there. Um, I hint at my zombie apocalypse. For the like the core game, like the expansion gives you whichever apocalypse you want to play, but for me there's like a core one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and nobody's sure exactly what brought about this apocalypse, because you know, as it started happening, every society and everything's devolving. The internet obviously is requires power connections and a small amount of maintenance. Eventually it's going to give up. So but this rumor gets out that somebody, a construction worker who was clearing a warehouse to make make way for a new distribution hub to a massive online store. And my zombie apocalypse kind of.
Speaker 1:The lore behind or the reason behind the apocalypse in the game is only hinted at because the internet starts to break down as the apocalypse happens, and so there's only rumors and nothing's confirmed and some things are actually taken down which are most likely what really happened. But the last surviving rumor was that a worker at a construction site in a small Pennsylvania town, while clearing out an old warehouse, comes down with a mysterious affliction. Now they were making way for a new huge online retail distribution hub. I'm not going to say what bald guy might own this giant mass place, but anyways, yes, that's our patient. Zero seems to come from that area. Now there's more information if you get the comic book as or, excuse me, the coloring book, as to what happened. But yeah, that's, that's the the start of it. Clearly he said there was something else before that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is fascinating, and I think that this is now my official zombie survival tip for this episode, which is um stop buying things from the big box online stores because it will cause a zombie apocalypse. Stop buying from the barman.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, we need more dick rockets. Let's be real, that's what it all comes down to.
Speaker 1:You know, I really appreciate keeping the origin kind of open-ended. You have an origin and you know the rules, but you're not going to tell the player everything about it, because I always believe that that takes out a lot of the mystery of it. Unless your goal in a story is to solve the zombie problem, which I also don't really particularly like that much, there's really no reason to go into detail as to where it came from and how it could be stopped. It's kind of like a limited, at least a hundred percent, yeah, I mean, for me, part of that is the is the not knowing. Yeah, so it's part of the horror, if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's that, that unknown. And most and then most stories, the most great stories, are just like they're just regular people, they're not gonna know, they're just reacting, they're just trying to survive it and I think that's, uh, I think that's it's pretty great to to have to have that as as as your role?
Speaker 2:yeah, how would you describe james? Like for somebody who's never heard of survival zombie infection before? What is like your one-liner to explain it to people? For those who are new to it?
Speaker 1:sure, uh, one liner which, um, obviously I'm long-winded, so it's not it can be a time the quick one-liner is uh, the game gives you a camp verse, camp verse zombie experience.
Speaker 1:so this is not, uh, the humans versus the undead, it is the humans versus each other, versus the undead. Which, for me, is really the driving theme behind most zombie stories is the shitty things that shitty people will do to each other in a shitty situation, and it just happens to be the zombie apocalypse. So in the game, everybody controls their own camp of survivors, with the objective being the last camp standing. If you get knocked out early, you come back as the zombies, which you'll most likely wreak havoc on the person that knocked you out Love. So a smart player will string along the camp that's not doing so well, kind of keeping them in the game, but basically for their own purposes.
Speaker 2:Keeping them alive.
Speaker 1:That's so diabolical, which and again, if you think about it in a uh, in a thematic way, because some people are like that doesn't make sense and I'm like mix total, take your gamer brain out of this and now put yourself in the theme. If you you're in, say, a city or town or whatever and you have a certain amount of camps of humans, if one gets wiped out. One now the zombies have less targets. Two now they have more zombies. So that was the driving factor of the game and for me that's what I wanted the experience to be was, yes, it's mostly the other players, with the backdrop being the zombies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are these zombies um rapid onset zombies, like you get bit or you die. It's pretty much. You just come back right away, so you don't have time.
Speaker 1:Yes these, these at the at the core are you die I mean not like right right away, but yes, uh, when your survivor dies in the game, like all our people have what's called the city center, which everybody starts out with a camp with all the people left in the city that you can recruit in your camps. They sit in the city center. When they die, the survivor chip gets flipped over to a zombie. Now the fun, cool, thematic thing also is you will see, the orange are the survivors green of the zombies. Eventually the center just goes all green. You know, you can just see it take over the city. Now there's no more people to gain. Now it's a war of attrition you versus the other ones it feels very real and immersive.
Speaker 1:Um, and I'm curious if there was ever a moment where you're thinking about making this just a comic book or just a story or a movie, and how you landed on a game oh, actually it did start as a comic while we were on the same wave, uh, so if you look at the rules, in the center fold of the rules was uh, I added a few panels, but that was a one-page comic that I made. Uh, I made that comic because there was a band I don't know if you know them called CombiChrist they were. They had an open call for artists. They wanted, you know, like gritty horror artwork and they were going to do short comics by different artists and they did an open call. I made that, I sent it in, I got accepted. I was all excited, yeah, but then they broke up for like five, six years and I was like man, you couldn't hold it together for me for a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:Come on, man I was depending on you to stay together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this did indeed. Yeah, it started as this core comic and I will tell you, I worked at a uh, at a greeting card place. We, we made handmade greeting cards. Wow, what a shift.
Speaker 1:Sorry. I went to my co-workers At the time I was the print room manager. I was like, hey, I'm doing this project. I need photo references of people. And it's going to be I'm going to have this twisted doctor who experiments on the undead and eventually gets his comeuppance. Who wants in? And everybody's like yes. And I was like, all right, let's do this. So we took some photos, I got it together and I made it so that was that was like the core concept behind this. Um, and I will tell you the, the doctor shows up throughout the game. I was gonna ask that question. Yeah, yeah, he's. He's on several cards. One he is the research doctor, but two you see him die on various other cards. And there is new. There's another new cards of him in the expansion just coming up on the 25th and there will be. I've saved one more piece of art of him for the the power struggle expansion coming maybe later this year. So that's exciting.
Speaker 2:Who is the doctor modeled after?
Speaker 1:He was a buddy a coworker at this place who was in Buffalo. He was kind of a he's a fairly well known guy in the theater like local theater. He had done a lot, he worked with a lot of people, he was a director, but he was a lot of times he was an actor, he was a coach to some people. So the guy, like I, was like I would tell him what I need and he knew it. Like he took direction and he took direction better than I was giving direction, you know what I mean. Like he picked up on my thoughts and made it that much better and I was just like dude, you are my guy because you're great, and he even helped me out with, you know, taking some shots at other people. So, yeah, he helped out quite a bit.
Speaker 1:But he was, he was a coworker and I will tell you, most of the people in the game are friends or backers. Yeah, I've, I've known some people like that, where they're like they, they, they take what you're, what you're, what you're giving them and they give back so much more because, right, because of their, their, their acting chops, their abilities to just right, go with it and make it incredible. Yeah, and I, I think you know. Obviously he saw my vision and, you know, was able to articulate it better than me because I zero direction. Yeah, you know skills. I could yell at people to work faster, but that was like that's your, yeah, oh god, yeah, I was bad at any managing skills back then.
Speaker 1:That is for sure. So, yeah, they picked me because I was a good worker, so that's how it happens.
Speaker 2:I've got to say, as somebody who's not, um, a gamer, I mean I'm obsessed with a couple of games like katan. I just play them to soothe my soul, basically, and dissociate, uh, and I've played a couple of games with dan and our friend ollie who we wish could be here today because they are a major gamer uh, that are zombie related. But the thing that immediately for me, as a non-gamer, attracted me was your art. Uh, it's just so visceral, like I'm looking at the back of the what is the box right now and somebody's getting bitten on the top of the head.
Speaker 2:It looks very painful it looks terrible time and I I think it's really cool that you were able to get like, did you this is from an actual picture like did you have folks?
Speaker 1:yeah wow, yeah. So yeah, those are. Those are former co-workers and yeah, we set that up, that is uh those stairs.
Speaker 1:You can't see it there. There's another. I think on the card you can see a little bit better, but that was like the stairwell at work so, which we worked in a repurposed um, it was an airplane factory in world war ii cool. So um, it was very, very industrial outside of the areas that they refurbished. So I got some great, like you know, urban wasteland pictures or urban blight that I still use in the backgrounds of other things because it was so good and I just walked around taking pictures nonstop. But we post just in the in the stairwell. I think it was on a lunch break, so do you still have the original pictures?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that is so cool. I feel like a big collector's item one day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, yeah, I love places like that, that are like that, cause they just, they just bring ideas. When you see them like, you're just like, oh yeah, you know people will worry about you, because you're like just standing in the middle of like some desolate lot with like grass growing through concrete and they're just like what, what you doing? It's like, right, this place looks like the apocalypse and it makes me feel good, yeah, yeah, like that rusted out 50 gallon drum on its side. The occasional mini fireball bottle that's smashed into the grass. It's always fireball too. That's fireball or light beer. Why doesn't anybody smash any craft beer bottles?
Speaker 2:Maybe it's time for you to do it yeah uh, I know you said earlier I think this had been before we were officially recording that you have been playing uh, dungeons and dragons with a friend for 40 years and I'm curious what like compelled you or what made you shift from being just somebody who played the game to being like I need to make this game um, it was, I guess it was always.
Speaker 1:It was always kind of there. Um, we started playing, uh, my one of my friends, older brother, who was also a friend, um, you know he was, he was the smartest of us, so he instantly became the dm. It was, you know, the guy running. Uh, he could read the fastest we were again, and, being older, that helped because I think we were all like what, like 10 at the time, or yeah, we were all 10 at the time so and he was like 12 or 13. So he was, he was a little bit smarter.
Speaker 1:But once we got rolling then I was like I like to create, I like to tell stories, so I want to be the dm. It wasn't even like it didn't even get pushed on me. He was like I want to do it, I want to run it, I want to run you guys through this thing that's happening in my head, let's do it. So the, the storytelling aspects and that interaction interaction with friends and family was always there and it just I guess it was a natural progression to be like okay, now let's just make a game so that that hit next, again, next, obvious progression I mean it makes sense and it also brings together like your love of drawing zombies and telling a story and playing games.
Speaker 2:It's like the perfect trifecta for what someone like you could create I did do, uh, artwork for the rpg game kind of industry.
Speaker 1:I used to be in some of the white wolf books. I was, you know, used to do stuff for world of darkness and, um, the people like twilight creations which are the ones that make the the zombies game with, was it? Three exclamation part points uh, they did yeah yeah, so they also did.
Speaker 1:Um, they had the uh, my deadlands property for a while, so the the wild west with zombies and horror and stuff like that. They had their property for a while. So I worked on that board game with them so I did stuff with that. I let a job get in the way so I lost all my uh industry cred and lost all that momentum yeah, so I allowed me to travel the world, it was not.
Speaker 1:You know I, I don't regret the experiences. I got out of the job, but then when I tried to get back into it, it was not. You know I, I don't regret the experiences I got out of the job, but then when I tried to get back into it.
Speaker 1:It was really tough and I was like, well, you know what? I got this idea for a game that I've been kicking around. Why don't I just I'll just make my own and do it so. And plus, I like the challenge of learning new things. I had to learn a whole business of how to do it, the whole kick Kickstarter thing, the whole marketing for that Facebook ads dear God, that terrible abyss of despair. So, but I love the challenge. So, yeah, that brought me to that.
Speaker 2:I'm watching Dan trying to find the right question that he wants to ask, sorry.
Speaker 1:I got a good one, oh, since I haven't asked many questions. Uh, dan, what's your? Uh, what's your level of nerdery and your nerdery of choice, since you said you know you do some gamings and you like, you like games. Level of nerdery? Oh, man, I guess it depends on where the nerdery is. Uh, you know, I, I've always loved dungeons and dragons, but I never had people to play with, so I can't say that I'm, like I'm, I'm not a 40 year dungeons and dragons player, because, uh, you know, if you add up all the, all the time that I've spent playing dungeons and dragons, it might just be a couple days worth. Oh, that's sad I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I just didn't.
Speaker 1:I just didn't wasn't around the right people. The most amount of uh, of of role-playing games that I played was actually when I was in the army. Um, because I found people in the army that were into that same thing. So, like they, I I played dungeons and dragons and they're like uh, have you, have you played shadow run? And I'm like I, I played it on sega genesis and they're like well, it's right, it's like dnd, and I'm like what? And it blew my mind and I got really into that. Um, nice, during uh in 2005, I tried to play a game called all flesh must be eaten, which is a role-playing zombie survival game, and I played it a couple times with my friends, but they just didn't really get the idea. You know, it's like they, they were into the role-playing games, but they're like well, there's only one kind of monster in this game. So how, how far can we take this?
Speaker 1:and I'm like you're not understanding, you're missing the core concept here yeah, so, like I had the challenge of not only the limited supply of role playing nerds in my life but also the zombie nerds in my life. Wow, you've been a thwarted nerd, I've been a thwarted nerd. That's so sad. I don't know about thwarted, maybe throttled, throttled, yeah, yeah, like, like what. What would happen if you were you know, you had the exposure and completely let off the chain? What would you? Oh, that'd be an unstoppable nerd. Nice, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, I, I, I used, I used to play video games a lot. I did it for a living for a little while, but then that became unviable. So I became a truck driver and, like all the nerdiness kind of like, got pushed to the back. You know, like I, you know I'd gone years without playing a video game at all, because it's just like I work now all the time and I have no time for anything else and unfortunately you married me, so you so actually I never had to ask James for Dan to like pay attention to me and not play a game.
Speaker 2:He actually prioritized me with a little bit of time that he had, um, when you were truck driving full-time or when you are in the summertime. But um, it is kind of sad and it makes me really happy every time he does play a game, because I know how much joy it brings him yeah and also you get all your violent feelings out yeah in a game become very important lately yeah, how many times have you played your own game, james?
Speaker 1:oh so, uh, I actually don't track my plays and stuff. I'm board game geek. There's a lot of board game nerds that do, and I don't begrudge them at all and that's awesome. But uh, me, me and my wife together played like I I don't even know, and I demo it at cons and before it was even an official game I would be demoing it. You know conventions and stuff like that. So the amount we've we played is just stupid.
Speaker 1:Um, I will say a little fun story about that is um, I do have my first. Well, that's my second because I did have a booth at board game geek and now I'm going to origins, which is kind of like the second biggest gaming gaming convention in the? U besides Gen Con. But so I have a booth and I've been trying to prepare my wife. I'm like, hey, there's no way my voice is going to last four days if I'm doing demos nonstop. Wow. So you're going to have to do some demos.
Speaker 2:And I got a lot of pushback.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you she's like I just learned how to be a gamer and blah, blah, blah. But just last, last week, she beat me three games not in a row, with me trying going full throttle. So I was like there's no way, you don't know this. Yeah, and she's like, and I'm like, no, you got it. And then last night we're like this coming up, expansion's completely done. So all I have to do is tell the printer go like the second, I hit my funding goal. I'm telling them I'm not waiting until the campaign's over. I want it to happen quick. But I'm working on the next expansion and I started throwing out things to her now anytime. I said, hey, you want to help me design a game. She loses her damn mind, loses her damn in a good way or a scary way no he's like I can't do this and blah blah.
Speaker 1:I don't understand that, so I reframed it. I reframed it last night I'm working better at selling myself and just selling in general but I reframed it and I was just like what do you think about? You know this mechanic? And we were, we were changing stuff up while we were playing because there's new things going to be introduced in that, and she started giving like great suggestions and I've yet to tell her I'm probably gonna wait until she gets a little bit more comfortable with it and I'll be like, just so you know, you know these mechanic changes, are you and you're literally helping me design?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, so you've.
Speaker 1:You've played probably hundreds, thousands of different players. Uh, yeah, I don't know about thousands, but definitely definitely hundreds. So, yeah, um, have you ever been surprised by different, uh, ways that people play, like you know? Are there like categories that you, you think of them, like the strategists, the risk takers, the chaos demons? Yeah, there's a lot of those, man, I will tell you, and some of those don't mix.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite experiences was at Board Game Geek and I was demoing for a bunch of friends, which is usually that is the best group to play with, because you know each other's personalities. Was at Board Game Geek and I was demoing for a bunch of friends, which is usually that is the best group to play with, because you know each other's personalities, you know their play styles and it's going to come out in the game. But there was one guy sitting at the table who was our math guy. This dude had the math of the game down and the best percentages and the best chances for everybody, he had it All right. But a lot of this game is and the best percentages and the best chances for everybody Wow, he had it All right.
Speaker 1:But a lot of this game is about emotion, it's about revenge, it's about feelings and it's about making an alliance with somebody that you hope will help you out. This guy was telling everybody hey, give this person, pass this person, the die. It will help us all out. And the dude's like nah, you attacked me, you get it. I don't care if it doesn't tear everybody else down before your turn. You pissed me off. So he's going, going, going and then eventually comes to him and then he doesn't follow his own logic because his buddies now have pushed him past that point and they've made the logical gamer now the emotional gamer.
Speaker 1:And I was just like this this is what I love about this game is you? You definitely attack people, you definitely make friends, but then you, you laugh about it. Yeah so, yeah, uh, I would say I try to be an emotional or a tactical kind of math guy when I play too, but I also do things that I think will just be fun and interesting, which to me is kind of my favorite player. Yeah, so, yeah, the math guy not so much, but the, the, the tactical but still fun experience, you know, and we'll lose just because it'll be funny if this guy over here wins.
Speaker 1:Who was doing the worst? Lose all day to make a good story out of the game. Yeah, I love a good story and that's something that can happen so often. Like I love games as like a tool for working out story ideas in my mind. So like, sometimes I'll just use mechanics of games to just like run through a scenario by myself and I can definitely see how this, this game, would work in that way. Like, if you're thinking about the like camp dynamics, uh, working, you know. Like you know the, the bigger picture game um, yeah, hopefully, hopefully a lot of people see that and, um, don't let the math guy win as much as he should.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree I don't want to let the math guy win, because I'm not the math guy.
Speaker 1:That is not I'm gonna be able to play I'm the calculator guy yeah, I think I have my own inner negan.
Speaker 2:That's how I play katan. I'm kind of of ruthless, so I don't yeah, it's like an alternative. There definitely is like an different version of me playing a game and I'm curious if you see that come out and other people too that you know really well, like does your wife have an alter ego that shows up when she plays?
Speaker 1:I'm just talking about that. So, uh, at origins I gonna meet up with some friends, a bunch of guys that uh also have a great. Well, they don't have a podcast. They do a live show on wednesdays called whiskey wednesday, which I'm gonna give a plug. I don't know if you leave it in, it's up to you, of course but um, whiskey wednesdays uh, they're a group called the board game run down and they talk about board games, they talk to game designers stuff, stuff like that on their show. So I met these guys through the game. They're a great bunch of dudes and now we're just friends. So I'm happy to see them at Origins.
Speaker 1:And last night I said to my wife I said I am going to love for Tim, mike and Bob to finally meet Table Flipping Cat, because if she gets attacked like hardcore, he loses it. He loses it and just is like she shooting daggers at me across the table, like if we're doing a demo, I'm gonna attack her so other people can see what it's like. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna go after somebody that's inexperienced, so I will attack her. And she just looks at me like and I'm like baby, we're doing this for learning purposes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love how things like this tend to to form like really strong friendships, because, like, you get together, you play a game. Sometimes you only have the opportunity to get together when you go to these cons. So I'm wondering right, is there a way that you can, that you could play this game online with friends on the other side of the country? So I haven't.
Speaker 1:There's and there's a. What is it? Tabletop simulator? Yeah, which is. What is it Tabletop Simulator? Yeah, which is a great thing. The old school one back in my day was called Vassal, which also did the same thing, but it wasn't as cool and they didn't label it just for tabletop gamers, so I think they kind of fell off a little bit, but I do need to get it up on Tabletop Simulator. Off a little bit, but I do need to get it up on Tabletop Simulator. For me, though, it's like I just want to keep creating more content for the game and I'm not quite making enough that I can pay somebody to put it up on Tabletop Simulator.
Speaker 2:Well, folks, you heard it here we have a big online community, lots of ZOM besties. If you want to have fun and play this with us, you should back this project. Yeah, you should back the project and uh and, uh, yeah, soar past whatever your goal is, so that you might have the chance to do this, because that would be amazing yeah, so we got to pay a tabletop simulator nerd now yes, or maybe you are a tabletop simulator nerd and you want to help out yeah, maybe right right you need to be a good one.
Speaker 1:It's not super complex, but I also don't want to hand it over, because if you, if you get like a bad product there, then other people are going to be like, well, this is terrible. And you're like, oh, you're not. You know it's it's not quite working the way it should. So that's also my other fear. Like me, I'm a terrible perfectionist, so I'm like oh, this, this, it's got to be just right, you know, yeah, so well, it's your name on it, literally, and it's it's your baby it's the thing that you created.
Speaker 2:It's definitely my undead baby, yeah we have one too, aren't they sweet?
Speaker 1:do you see um? Do you see things like tabletop sim as like a promotional, um, promotional potential or like because like a lot of times stuff is just like on the steam workshop and you know it's it kind of is.
Speaker 1:Well, it's plagiarism a lot of times, um, and I'm wondering like what? How? What's the balance there? Plagiarism is like good press. So there's uh, I belong to, uh, uh, it's basically a Facebook group called Tabletop Design Workshop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so these guys are all it's people that are just starting to think about creating game all the way up to you know, big designers that have sold games to multiple game companies and that's all they do is their job. So on there there's a lot of great advice and most of them say you know, if you can get it up on tabletop simulator and you get some good traction, you're going to get people to still buy the physical copy either way and it's not really gonna cost you in revenue to people and just be like well, I can get it for like a buck or two or free. You know, yeah, digitally they're like you'll, you'll still sell and it'll be worth it if you made a good product on there. So, yes, 100, it could be a selling tool. It's just one I haven't tackled yet. Or, you know, have the revenue to pay somebody to make it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, that's always the challenge, so I believe you're gonna get there, purely because I want to play this with oliver, who is currently on the other side of the country. I'm like Oliver, just you know, do a really good pledge and I'm really excited to play with some friends who are local actually, who also really love zombie and horror stuff, and unfortunately, because of our super slow mail, we didn't get to do that before our chat with you today, but it is on the books for a couple of weeks from now. Dan doesn't even know this.
Speaker 1:I don't know this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're playing it with two. I guess I can say their names. It's just their first names Amy and Asher.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, even if you told me I probably forgot, that's true.
Speaker 2:But because I'm going to be playing it very soon, asking for a friend. Do you have any tips for new players?
Speaker 1:Yes, I definitely have tips for new players. One read the rules, but two, don't just sit there and do nothing. You can pass on your turn, but passing is almost never the best option. I will also say to remember that every card, with the exception of a hideout, can be played on any other person. So a lot of people don't think bilaterally because there are bad characters in the game. So characters basically get placed out in front of you and they are exceptional people that are within your camp that usually give you a bonus, but there's a few bad characters that he usually usually give you a bonus, but there's a few bad characters. So there's the know-it-all, which is basically based on uh, mr cooper, who's in the basement? Uh, and not a living dead so okay, yeah, this guy comes up.
Speaker 1:He knows the whole deal and it doesn't really matter whether he's right or wrong, because he's so confrontational that this guy is a detriment. You know what I mean. So the idea is, again, any card can be played on anybody else. So you would look at this card and be like why would I put this person in your camp? And you're like, no, you don't put them in your camp, you put them in somebody else's camp. The idea is, again, thematically, this dude shows up at their door and they're like, oh, hey, it's a human, he's not screwed up, let's let him in. We need people to live. Then he gets in there and you're like, oh, this fucking guy, that's so real too, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And again with the, with the bilateral cards, uh, there's a card called voted out so, which you put you can play on a camp doesn't have to be your camp and you can vote somebody out of that camp to a camp of your choice. So you could use it to steal good characters. So somebody happens to have like the survivalist or a doctor, you can use it to steal the doctor from them. Or if you got stuck with the, the stupid know-it-all or the hysterical cheerleader or, even worse, the corporate CEO you can, which I made that guy a long time ago anyways you knew what's up, yeah yes they haven't changed right right, you can send him out to somebody else's camp.
Speaker 2:So you gotta think bilateral for all the different options that's a really good that is my one advice I will say, as somebody who gets overwhelmed by like deep and detailed instructions, I mean I can do it. I used to play axis and allies, which is an annoyingly complicated version of risk for those who don't know we're listening. But anyways, I read your. I read your instructions before we even got this, because you had them online on a really excellent website and I was like I could play this game. I didn't actually, a lot of the time in the new games I'm feeling like, oh no, I don't know what the is going on.
Speaker 2:For the first, time right, and I'm sure in it right there's a, I'm sure there's a learning curve, but uh, right, a little bit a great balance of like complexity and very immersive real life situation that I think we would find ourselves in in the the zombie apocalypse. But it doesn't feel intimidating to start and I think that that is a really awesome balance that you managed to find, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That that's that's for me, the games that I've created and the ones created going forward. I mean I'm going to try to get some of the lighter and heavyweight.
Speaker 2:But I do like that mid balance where it's.
Speaker 1:You know it can be a gateway game to again somebody that just, you're a perfect example, somebody that enjoys, enjoy zombies in the zombie genre. But you know, it has casually played a few games and maybe a few with a little more complex ones. But I like, I want those people to be like I can pick this up, I can do this. Or you could show your friend again, somebody that likes zombies but not really into games. You could show your friend again somebody that likes zombies but not really into games. You could be like I can tell you, I can teach you these rules in about five, 10 minutes and by the second round or the third round you're going to be like I got this and you no longer need any. You know hand holding and you're full in, and then you're laughing about wiping out the other camp.
Speaker 2:I other can't. I wish this was the game I played with my grandparents as a kid. Instead of hand and foot and canasta, that would have been such a great memory. Yeah, and I'm actually wondering. I know that it says eight or not 18 plus. It says age 14 plus. Uh, can I play this with my eight-year-old nephew?
Speaker 1:if he's an advanced nephew, right cut off so if you got the oh, there's two points of this one. Yes, younger players who basically can grasp you know mild mechanics or can at least grasp some mechanics 100, 100 can play this, whether or not they get the uh, you know some of the combos or see the matrix within it, and probably a little later. But I said that, yes, the reason why the age 14 plus is on there and it's on a lot of games is because if you're going to sell this to retailers or online retailers or somebody that makes dick rockets, if you're going to sell it on their website, it has to be rigorously tested and it costs you like $2,000 if you have it done in the US. If you have your manufacturer do it, it's a little bit less, but it costs that much for any game that's 14 and under. That's considered for kids. So you got to get the components tested. You know what's the age where somebody could swallow this piece. If you got 12-year-olds swallowing dice, well, dear God, god, I mean yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 2:My eight-year-old would definitely nephew would not swallow dice.
Speaker 1:So right, right yeah so yeah not a purpose anyway, that's the reason why it's there. The other reason was you know it's, there's, there's definitely some gore, but you know, if it's static gore and if, if they watch even you know some mild horror movies, there's nothing in there that's not quite.
Speaker 2:You know that's, it's not pushing anything he's watched stranger things and is obsessed with it. I think he'll be fine right and right right yes, yeah, I don't. I'm not a parent, so I have no ability to judge what is appropriate or inappropriate. I just think my nephew's cool, so I have no ability to judge what is appropriate or inappropriate.
Speaker 1:I just think my nephew's cool. So yeah, I, you know I was. I found that interesting, cause, like I had no idea that so much went into just the the age that you put on the box. I just thought that you just printed it on there based on, like, who you think this is for. But yeah, it's. It makes sense that there's just a lot of testing, a lot of liability behind it, Right, and if it's like just cards, you still in theory have to get it tested. But then the age limit definitely drops Mine. I do have those small chips and the dice that instantly had a level. So I was like you know what? Boom, we're just saying 14. Call it a day. I will say.
Speaker 1:I demoed at a game store here in texas not too long ago and there was a father and a son and you could tell the father was into horror movies, you know. And he was just like uh, so what's the age? And I told him I was like but you know if, if you guys are into horror movies, there's nothing here your son can't handle. I think it was like 10 or something like that, and we sat down, the kid won, everybody had a great time, we bought a copy, so yeah, that's really fun.
Speaker 2:The kid won. Yeah, I just yeah.
Speaker 1:Kids can be so creative about yeah, but yeah, basically the father was going full out on me and my wife and we had a store employee there helping as well, um, and like the kid was doing pretty good, but I was like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna skew it in this kid's favor.
Speaker 2:So you know, and when he got done, he's like dad kicked your ass, kind of thing, you know, and he was all excited. He's like we need to get one. You are a negan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm seeing more parallels, yeah I mean, you don't sell copies if you kick the living shit out of them this is also true, exactly, but you also give him probably like a positive lifelong memory, because one of my favorite childhood memories was playing. Have you ever played hand and foot? It's just a very long game for seniors who have a lot of time, and it's extremely boring sometimes if there's more than two players three players anyways. It was uh, my, my cousin Kelly and me and I was maybe like 10 and she was 12. And we kicked their ass because you can play as pairs against each other. Me and Kelly jumped out of our chairs and did like a high five fist bump situation, being like we beat the old geezers. It was a great moment and I still remember it. So that's what you did for that kid yeah right, that's really nice right tell us about the expansion.
Speaker 1:Mortal reckoning so, um, it's, it's an expansion, that's one. Most simply, it uh ups the game, the player count for the game from six to eight players, so it gives you more chips and more starting hideouts. It gives you more cards to balance that out, but it also includes a bunch of new hideouts, a bunch of new characters and some cool new cards that have fun mechanics. One which is probably going to be the big draw, but also the big controversy I know one of you I'm not saying which said they might have a problem with this, and that is the the loyal dog. That was me, yeah, the loyal dog character. He came about because, uh, you got the will smith uh movie where he has the dog. Uh, you know, daryl picks up a yeah, I am legend. Uh, will smith picks up, or will smith, uh, garyll picks up his twisted girlfriend's dog. Yeah, he just called dog. I love dog, right and hey, if fall if I had a very well dog, friend, right and if I
Speaker 1:was in apocalyptic situation and had a fairly well-trained dog. I mean, that is, that is a huge plus. Yeah, this, this thing is going to protect everybody and just be yes, so I had to include the dog. But the dog mechanic is. It is a character, but it has to be played on another character and the only way you can get rid of that other character is if the dog is wiped out first. Now I know people have you know you'd be like, oh, I gotta kill the dog, but wiped out first. Now I know people are going to have you know you'd be like, oh, I got to kill the dog. But that's the fun part. If you know somebody's a dog lover out across the table, you put the dog on your best character. Yeah, and now this person has to be a jerk or feel bad about wiping out the dog to get at your doctor.
Speaker 2:That is so diabolical it's like a morality shield that is really smart. That is really smart, or the other one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, or the other bilateral way to play it is somebody has played the CEO on you and now I play the doctor on top of the CEO. You got to spend two turns trying to kill off the CEO to get him out of your camp, because I played the dog to protect this guy.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the dog's protecting the CEO Worst nightmare. Worst nightmare, Exactly. I'm not okay with this, but I am okay with it. It'll make the game really fun. Just we'll cover our dog's ears, Right right when it gets to that point.
Speaker 1:There's also Nero just left the room Our dog and there were some characters I had left from the core game that I had to trim for size or trim to have it make sense, but still clicking on all the tropes. So we got the priest, obviously. We got the gang member Again a dude, that's not positive. And again he. Actually you get less people in your camp because he's there. But when the brains hit the fan, all of a sudden, now this guy who's a little brutal and edgy, is worth something. You know.
Speaker 1:There's also the coward, which a lot of people don't see the beauty in the coward, because the coward, uh, anytime your hideout's destroyed, he goes to the next hideout with the most people, all right. So when you're like well, why would I recruit this guy? Like okay, when he, when the camp gets destroyed and he moves on, it forces everyone at the table to say exactly how many people they have now. You know how many people they have Now. You know your math of where you sit in that. So, yeah, I like throwing a lot of subtle strategies.
Speaker 2:I feel like we're getting a master class right now. This is really helpful. How do you come up with all the characters?
Speaker 1:I mean I just you know, obviously there's so many tropes and you know I have so many favorite characters that they just I'm like, how do I fit this in mechanically? So I usually pair it with something I feel is missing, um, a big part of the game. I wanted to. I wanted to be a random selection of people, which is also why I had the the backer art. So you know, people paid to be a random selection of people, which is also why I had the backer art. So you know people paid to be on a card. Part of why I did that was I didn't want all these people to look like my generic idiot friends. You know what I mean? The same four people over and over again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, right, which again there are reoccurring people and there are friends that are reoccurring. I totally want that, but I also wanted like it, who's left is going to be completely random, you know. And there's going to be the people that are prepared to the end degree and one little mistake or one thing they didn't realize, or just sheer bad luck, this person is prepared, they're out, you know. And then there's going to be, like the guy in the office building who's like on a toilet when everything gets wiped out, you know and then all of a sudden this guy just comes out and everybody's like freaking dead and this person lives.
Speaker 1:you know it's gonna be so random, so that's, that was part of the beauty of doing that and um, I'm gonna continue to do that and hopefully I just get a wide array of people that from different walks they look different and have a different approach. I also have these people take their own pictures, which sometimes can be terrible, and you're like no, no we got to redo this, you know.
Speaker 1:I try to give them our direction via email. Yeah, they give you the the up the nose shot. Yes, no, or it's like all wiped out and gray. They give you the up the nose shot yes, no, or it's like all wiped out and gray and I was like man, I want to make this look like you, so I'm going to need to see what you look like, so help me out here.
Speaker 2:It's a really unique thing that you're doing, because you're basically making portraits of people, yeah, and is there other ways to like buy prints or anything like that of your art?
Speaker 1:and is there? Are there ways to like, buy prints or anything like that of your art? Uh, so I used to have a website and I had prints on there and I just don't because the the focus has been so deep on this, I will tell you anybody that anybody that backed on that level previously got a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't announce and I just kind of like trickled out. So I gave everybody like, uh, magnets of their card, like that were. I think they were like four. So I gave everybody like magnets of their card Like there were, I think there were like four by six. So a big blow up of their card. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:In the next campaign I'm going to give, I am going to give them prints of their portraits. So I think I had them set at 11 by 17. So, yes, they will get that for sure. Uh, there were other perks, like some people are returning, even in this, in this campaign. So, um, I had a friend who backed and he his card was like his whole family, wow, and it was, uh, I think it was, please, let us in. So they showed up. Uh, the best part was his brother-in-law shows up and the dude's carrying records, like everybody's decked out for war and he's carrying records and I'm like why? And then I was like, oh, sean of the dead, right. Yes, I'm like this is so stupid. I love it, I love it, but that buddy, that did that.
Speaker 1:I took some proof shots because actually they were close enough. I got to take the photos. I took some proof shots, one of which was just him standing with a gun. And bam Now, I didn't even you know all of a sudden we were playing the demo and he was like how am I on a second card? And I was like dude, you're in, so you're already out. You're in my wife's, in my brother-in-law. He, uh, he's gonna be in the third one. He doesn't know yet he's planned in. I will tell you, the loyal dog is, um, my brother and sister-in-law's dog that had just passed, not too long ago, and I wanted to, you know, I wanted to include them, them in this expansion. And then I was like I need a dog, I need a dog. And uh, my sister-in-law cried when I sent her the, the pick and stuff.
Speaker 2:So that's really sweet and also, weirdly, makes me feel better if I have to kill the dog because the dog has already passed away, you know a little bit of background. I think that's more brutal this is my deep, inner, dark self, I guess, thinking um okay are there. You said that you love classic tv shows and I'm curious if any of the characters and mechanics of the game are inspired by some of the shows that you love wow, that's a seriously good question.
Speaker 1:I would say, not directly, but man, there's. There's probably no way Like, if I looked at it now that you've said that, with, like you know, a Freudian kind of sit down and grill over it, I bet you, I bet you I would find something in there. But consciously I would say no, subconsciously I would definitely say I'd get back to you.
Speaker 2:I want to hear the answer. Yeah. If something comes to you in the middle, hear the answer yeah. If something comes to you in the middle of the night, please dm us and instagram. Let us know yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:While on the topic of classic tv shows, uh, which, which tv shows would you like to see? Just like zombies injected into and turned into a zombie show. Oh, man, man, I, I mean, I instantly go to my favorites. I just want to come up with a reason why, like sanford and son would be great. Oh, yeah, like, maybe these two guys are held up in this junkyard and they've used the junk to make barriers. Yeah, red comes on, he's, he's like. He's like I gotta, I'm gonna cut these bathtubs in half. I got all these bathtubs, he's got some scheme. And there's like I'm going to cut these bathtubs in half. I got all these bathtubs, he's got some scheme. And there's so many shows too that I think it would just really fit. I mean Bonanza. It's not that different from the Walking Dead. They're out on the trail, out in the woods, dangerous come up, problems come up. It's kind of like the Walking Dead, and I think Bonanza with zombies would be really great.
Speaker 2:I've never seen it. I missed a lot of classic TV because I didn't really have TV as a kid. I have one more question for you about the game. Dan might have more, but this is the one that I'm dying to ask, Having played it so much and created it and obviously being a major zombie fan yourself do you think that there are any like survival skills that people can learn by playing this game?
Speaker 1:I, yeah, but I don't think it's the skill they're gonna want to learn. It's kind of the Negan factor. It's kind of the uh, it is going to be us versus other people for me and that. That that's 100 percent how I see it, not that I don't want that.
Speaker 2:No yeah.
Speaker 1:We should come together as humanity and small groups will come together, but they're going to come together on like minded concepts and those like minded concepts are not going to mesh with their. You know the other people that are computing. You're competing for leftover resources, so it's. It might tell you you're comfortable, your, your comfortability level, if that's even a word, your level of comfort with what doing, what needs to be done and a lot of that. You know that was explored in the walking dead where, yeah, you know, they came to a point where they're like man, can we keep doing this One? I think the season might have been a little too long because, you know, rick went to the edge Like I don't know how many times.
Speaker 1:This guy, looked at me, he jumped over five, six times, but you know, the first two were incredible journeys. Same thing with Negan, where this guy, guy, you know, they finally give you his backstory and you're like, this guy was not bad, okay, he was a little bit of a screw-up, he was trouble, he was morally gray yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but he wasn't terrible at first and then he got to this situation and you know, some bad things happened to him and now you see what kind of made that character, that character, and then he has his, his, his kind of redemption moment. Not that nobody will let him forget it, nor should they, but that redemption moment you're like OK, this is, this is character growth and it's great.
Speaker 2:So I think, I think the game will maybe show at least your comfort level of doing what needs to be done to get the job done and protect your people I think that's actually really valuable because, for example, like you just saying to me, like well, you might have to kill the loyal dog because the dog is loyal to a ceo, and I'm like, oh no, I think I'm might have to kill the loyal dog because the dog is loyal to a ceo, and I'm like, oh no, I think I'm gonna have to kill the dog. Right, that's, um, maybe good practice for reality, although I do also really want to believe that most of us will come together and that cooperation is what will win. But there will be people who don't see the world that way, like that's not a thing. There are people right now who don't see the world that way. Um, they're not going to just all disappear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when the apocalypse happens, unless they're raptured they all go to heaven for some strange reason is there.
Speaker 1:Is there a way to win this game cooperatively? Um, so, not really it it's. I call it co-op. Until it's not. You know, you're, you're. You are definitely going to cooperate with people, especially in larger games. You know, with only two people, it's, it's one, you know one V one. So it's either me or you. However, when you get into bigger games, there there has to be a level of cooperation and it generally comes down to the point where, like, well, this doesn't benefit me anymore. Now in the expansion there is alternate rules for basically, you know, either controlling two camps, but you could easily change those, as you know. Okay, me, it's me, and you gonna be versus these two and these two. So it does work both that ways, but generally most of it is, you know is the us or them, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I guess I'll find out yeah, dan and I are probably going to play it together first, because you're going to have two to six players. With the original game, with the expansion, how many folks can you have up to?
Speaker 1:eight that's awesome and it's 30 to 90 minutes this one says so that same for the expansion uh, generally, yes.
Speaker 1:Um, now, when you gauge, this is a little gamer thing, um, a game designer thing. When you gauge the time, you're supposed to gauge it on the time, once people actually know the game. So you know, I will tell you with teach, and then you got you. You know, you got your buddy with analysis, paralysis, we only got two actions. It's like do the thing or don't do the thing, and everybody at the table is watching them blink and you're just like.
Speaker 2:I'm putting a timer out at that point. I will make that rule.
Speaker 1:You need the move timer like in chess, yeah.
Speaker 2:I can't stand people who just like ponder for five minutes. I'm like absolutely not. No right. In fact, that will make me call them faster in the game there you go, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's with a bigger group. It's definitely a little longer, but it's not much more, because one you're all sharing the, the mutual resource of the survivors in the center in a big play, bigger player game. There's a few more there, but it's not much more. So, um, the beginning basically takes just as long or a little longer, but the tail end of the game, basically when things start going really sideways, then that speeds up even quicker with more people because it gets more brutal fast and every person there has less people per camp than they did in a smaller game. So taking them out in the end game is quicker.
Speaker 2:This is very Negan. People are a resource.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh yes, yep, it 100% is, which is it's a shame. There's already been like three Walking Dead games, two of which are basically unplayable. There's been three. I've got the Walking Dead Universe rule books and everything. I didn't know about the other ones, though. Oh yeah, there's two board games. One came out early and it came out and it disappeared because it was a steaming pothole of not goodness. So then there's one that came out later and it was like OK, but it I it just didn't quite capture the flavor, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this feels like if you, if you find Negan fascinating, you should play this game, and I do.
Speaker 2:And if you want vengeance on Negans of the world, I fascinating you should play this game and I do and if you want vengeance on Negans of the world, I think you should also play this game. It sounds like an opportunity for both. So, on that note, you have a Kickstarter coming out for the expansion pack, which you can also get the original game as a part of that. When is that coming out and where can people find you?
Speaker 1:It is coming out on 2-25-25. So again we find you. It is coming out on 2 25 25. So again, we're recording this in the past, but in the future. Yeah, so that's that's a tuesday. Tuesday, february 25th. It is coming out on kickstarter and, like you said, yes, you can get all the uh, the previous the core game and the previous expansion that were part of the first kickstarter, as well as an exclusive throne card. Those will be available for new backers to just basically, you buy in, you can buy the bundle and you're already completely up to speed. All right, um, uh, as far as where you can find me, oh man, I gotta double check my url. I think it's uh, zombie survival.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's a zombie survival infection game. Wow, I'm terrible, I have it. It'll be in the description.
Speaker 2:It is. It's a, yeah, it's zombie survival infectioncom.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:And your Instagram. I'm going to promo you, and your Instagram is James underscore S underscore, cole underscore illustration Correct, yep. And we'll have all the Kickstarter links in the show notes as well. Is there a way to pre-sign up for the like, the pre-launch?
Speaker 1:If you click, if you go to Kickstarter and you have a Kickstarter account, you can click on the little notify me when launch and that'll let you know. If you go to zombie survival infection gamecom or zombie survival infectioncom, thankurvivalinfectioncom, thank you. If you go there, there's also a way to sign up for the email and I promise I'll spam the hell out of you. Not really, I send about. I still have the free account of MailChimp so I can only send out. I have just shy of the pay account amount of subscribers. So, yeah, I send out an email like once a month and usually it's like okay, we're ready, it's going to be this date and now next email will be like we're going, you know, so go over. And the reason why you want to get in early is there are some limited add-ons, one of several of which I think there's only three chances to get in on the new expansion that's coming after this. And again, that's you on a card. There's going to be original art.
Speaker 1:So my, my main zombie dude. That was the inspiration for the cover I have, uh, the acrylic painting of him. Wow, is there? Yeah, I have my favorite, one of my favorite zombies, which is pushing up out of the grave. So I got a guy coming up out of the grave, also an original acrylic painting that's going to be up there. I've made skate decks that have the artworks etched in and then I've painted on top of that and they have custom grip tape. I have a couple of those up there as well. So there's there's a bunch of fun, like obviously really limited um add-ons, so it's a it's a reason to get there early.
Speaker 1:There will also be an early bird, which is uh, you know you're going to get the game at a discount and you'll get an exclusive sticker, and that that exclusive sticker is of Mama Skinwalker. The next expansion will be the leaders, and my favorite leader is Mama Skinwalker. All day, given the chance to play, I will play with them.
Speaker 2:Tell us about Mama Skinwalker, I'll tell you about the expansion after next.
Speaker 1:Again, this one's got new mechanics, new characters. Brings the player count up, that's mortal reckoning. The one after that that's already planned is, but still in production is called power struggle. So every camp chooses their leader. The leaders can be based on a player style slash. You know still the tropes?
Speaker 1:Um, we have, we have the skinwalkers, so you got mama skinwalker. We have the Skinwalkers, so you got Mama Skinwalker. Then we have the Brutal Leader, obviously, which is Negan style. We do have the politician, so kind of Dennis Hopper's character in Land of the Dead. Okay, yeah, he's him. We have the Reluctant, which are people that got thrown into this situation and now they got to deal with it, which is pretty much Rick and crew. We got the scavengers, which would be, you know, people that live just by scavenging and they kind of, you know, they're good at finding things. We have the hidden, which are people that are good at hiding and you didn't even know they really existed in the city until, like later on in the situation. Oh, yeah, um, and they, they're good at also finding people that are hidden. Uh, you have the military, which, um, kind of based on the our bad guys at the end of uh, 28 days later.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so yeah I don't like those ones. No, thank you.
Speaker 1:So they are brutal. They are also brutal and shitty, but they're going to do well to survive because they got a lot of guns and they can do stuff. We also have the pacifists, which are people that are completely nice and it's going to be for somebody that doesn't have an aggressive play style, for sure which are people that are completely nice and they, you know, it's going to be for somebody that doesn't have an aggressive play style, for sure. And then the last, oh and the last, my second favorite, the cannibals. Oh, no, yeah, again, and everybody has their own little quirk or awesomeness. The cannibals if you get stuck with a bad character, you just eat it as your turn. Yeah, so, and they have special cards that if they can eat somebody, then they get to do something, because each leader is going to come with two I don't know or possibly three cards, we'll see but basically you're going to choose the card you want and put the others back, so people even that know all the cards are not going to know which one you have.
Speaker 2:You know, kind of thing, yeah I was just gonna say this game does test your psychological limits, because I think you just hit one. I'm like I don't want to. I don't think I want to even eat card people or fake.
Speaker 1:I want to eat all the people yeah, you can be I will tell you, you know, basically our three evil factions are the skinwalkers, the brutal and the cannibals, and all of them, basically all the more brutal camps do better in the end game than the other people do and, like our pacifists, get the most people because they have to weather the storm. They're not good at fighting, they're not going to do well against a more aggressive you know team, but they get more people to help them bump up where, like, the skinwalkers get zipped for people they don't. They can't even have a hideout, so they get way less. And then, but when the end time come, they can direct the zombies towards other people and they take way less. But when the end time comes, they can direct the zombies towards other people and they take way less hits than everybody else.
Speaker 2:So it's all about style.
Speaker 1:Again. It's all about hitting the tropes that are in the movies or in the stories, things like that I am also toying with. I probably need to add Marauders, because that's going to be a thing especially, you know, uh, you know, original dawn of the dead. The marauders come and they just wreck them all for like no damn good reason other than to wreck them all. So you know tom savini's little cameo right there, oh yeah, in that movie. So you know, um, that, that is that one oh, and that one oh.
Speaker 2:I don't want to give away too much well now I'm curious, but I will respect your boundary.
Speaker 1:I'm really amped for this because it has so many elements that I absolutely love. One thing I'd also like to add is, like, a good reason for people listening to back this early is because it helps you and the first 24 hours if you reach that goal, that's good. That's good for you. Yeah, it helps me out with the whole Kickstarter matrix. I will say I was, I've already been, chosen as a project we love, so I'm going to get a nice boost from that, which is great. Yeah, and you know they saw that I, I got the previous one, um, and you know, I, I guess they, they had faith in me, which is great. That's awesome. Um, you know, and I got it again for this project, so that's exciting. Gets me, you know, just some extra people, a little extra Buzz about the project. So I'm happy about that. I will say, since we threw out all that man and I've been doing too much talk. I'm going to ask you guys a lot of questions in one minute.
Speaker 1:The core game in the first campaign also came with an expansion called Undead Reckoning, and that one, especially for our zombie nerds here, allows you to choose the type of zombies you're going to fight. So the core game which I suggest you play first is you're just fighting the zombies. You know air quotes, but with that it allows you to choose the type of zombies, which affects the gameplay a little bit. Like things are set up different based on the type of zombies you're fighting and once you know them it'll help you. You know, play a different game. So there are six types.
Speaker 1:Just a quick example like the return dead, that is, our guys with our maggot filled, slowly shambling dudes. So this game, you know you're all your players are cool with a long, protracted game because they're they're not coming fast and hard, they're not just wrecking shop. If you want to play a quick game, then you just play the runners, where the game's going to be faster. You start out with more people but the game gets aggressive faster. And then a very thematic one is the Sparrow fights man. That's such a tough word.
Speaker 2:So those are our fungus dudes.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I will tell you the fungus guys, if you don't solve the game quickly, they'll solve it for you. So because each of these also gives you, somebody gets knocked out, becomes those types of zombies. So the fungus zombies can be the most brutal the longer the game takes. Basically, the fungus mask gets bigger and bigger and bigger in your city, so you better get it done before they get it done, kind of thing. We also got ghouls, walkers, bioengineered, which you know. That actually plays out a little scenario. So all of those give you a fun little flavor to your game. You know, once you, once you've got the core rules down, then I say introduce the different types of zombies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm looking forward to the fungal ones. I'm kind of okay if fungal zombies take over the world.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm at, that's probably our best chance of zombies happening is going to be those guys, yeah, or the bioengineering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's dark out there in the world right now, so you know it's bad, but I'm like, I guess, fungal zombies okay, yeah, okay, just come and get me you are basically aliens, fun guys. So just you know I'm gonna be sad, I don't live in buffalo anymore when the fungus zombies show up.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be a hard drive going somewhere where there's a lot less fungus, or maybe just move to canada well, I like tim hortons. So let's, go ah, yes, key to my heart, tim hortons you don't have much humidity though, so that also helps a little bit with the, with the fungus well, this has been.
Speaker 1:This has been, uh, incredible talking to you. I I've been, I've, I'm really amped for this game now and uh, and I think it has a lot, a lot of potential and feeds all of my imagination centers, which is exactly what I'm looking for in all kinds of things yeah, just I mean honestly they.
Speaker 2:It could be a good prompt all by yourself to just pick up the cards and read them. There's a lot there to feed from. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We did a little bit of that.
Speaker 2:Let's just pretend I'm smart enough that.
Speaker 1:I wasn't. That's a good pun.
Speaker 2:But thanks for joining us, james. I hope we get to talk to you again soon. Can't wait for the Kickstarter to come out February 25th 2025.
Speaker 1:Yep, go get it.
Speaker 2:June 25th 2025. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for joining us. Sure, this has been an incredible time and I'm really glad that we had a chance to talk to you about this game and zombie movies. Hey, thanks for having me on and putting up with my ramblings. I know it's going to be a lot of editing and I will tell you I cut back. Oh God, I ramble. No, the rambling is good. It's what makes this podcast happen, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's the passion behind this project that you've worked for years on, so it makes sense to me. You've got a lot to say about it, and that's what we're here is to listen to you, james. So thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 1:No, no, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Everybody go check out the Kickstarter Two 25, 25.
Speaker 1:Great date choice by the way, pledge early, pledge often.
Speaker 2:I'm really I'm looking forward to the. Gotta say I cannot wait to see the originals. So thanks everybody for joining the zombie book club.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, make sure you leave a rating or a review. Reviews are great, ratings are good too. Uh, and you can send us a voicemail. If you want to, um 614-699-006, you can send us a voicemail. Tell us.
Speaker 2:Tell us what move, what zombie movie you like yeah, tell us whether you would want to be Negan or beat Negan in the zombie survival infection game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who would you use the dog as a shield for to win in this game?
Speaker 2:You can also follow us on Instagram at zombie book club podcast or join the brain munchers collective that's on discord. All links are in the description. Also, make sure to go into the show notes and find James Cole also an Instagram. Go to the website, check out all of the cool stuff that's there and, last but not least, don't forget that Kickstarter can't wait to see the expansion and play this game. Thank you so much for your time with us yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. The end is nigh baby, bye, don't die.
