Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
Haunted Women Pushed to the Brink with Special Guest Nailah King | Zombie Book Club Ep 83
Join the Zombie Book Club as we dive into the haunting and thought-provoking world of Nailah King, author and founder of The Content Witches. In this episode, Nailah shares her journey of writing stories centered on haunted women pushed to the brink, blending supernatural elements with powerful narratives about identity, survival, and societal challenges. From her self-publishing adventures to her creation of the Black Horroritage Challenge, Nailah offers insights into the importance of diverse voices in literature and the joy of building creative communities.
We explore the intersection of Caribbean folklore, Black women’s experiences, and the allure of zombie and ghost stories. Nailah also gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming Swamp Horror Novelette and reflects on the challenges of shelving a gothic novel. Whether you’re a fan of horror, writing, or simply love a good post-apocalyptic fantasy, this episode is a celebration of storytelling, resilience, and the power of reclaiming narratives.
Where to find Nailah King:
- Nailah on Instagram: @Nailahkingwrites
- The Content Witches Website: The Content Witches
- Nailah's Ghost Carnival Discord: https://discord.com/invite/ePe2EaJYF4
- Nailah's contest winning short story, The Dead Last List
- Nailah's BluSky
Relevant Links:
- Sign up for our Newsletter!!!! --- https://zombiebookclub.io/newsletter/
- Join the Brain Muncher’s Zombie Collective: https://discord.gg/rn3nPDa4CB
- ZBC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zombiebookclubpodcast/
- Dan's BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/danthezombiewriter.bsky.social
- Zombie Book Club Voicemail: (614) 699-0006
- Zombie Book Club Email: ZombieBookClubPodcast@gmail.com
- Our Secret Website That Isn't Finished: https://zombiebookclub.io
- Our Merchandise Store (Where you can find our Evil Magic Chicken Zombie Shirts): https://zombie-book-club.myspreadshop.com
Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is a ghost carnival full of haunted women pushed to the brink. They just want their revenge and to have a little bit of fun. I'm Dan, and when I'm not being haunted, I'm writing a book about all the stuff that's happening right now, but with zombies. For real, though, it's like the government stole all my worst ideas. Project 2025 is copyright infringement.
Speaker 2:And that's where you're at today, dan. I'm Leah In. And that's where you're at today, dan I'm Leah In. Much happier news today we have our ZOMB bestie, naila King, back in the virtual house. She's an author, founder of the Content Witches and creator of the Black Horatage Challenge, which has already featured two zombie books by Black horror authors. As Dan said, naila writes about haunted women pushed to the brink, definitely believes in ghosts and is not convinced survival is worth it in a zombie apocalypse. Welcome back to the show, naila.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me again, even though I am a non-believer in survival.
Speaker 2:I think we need that balance actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, non-survival's a plan.
Speaker 3:I mean I feel bad because Mary J Blige told me not to haterate and hollerate in the dancery, but I'm like, no, I don't want to. You know like why am I trying to be in this? But are you haterating?
Speaker 2:Are you haterating in the dancery? I think you're having a good time at the carnival.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the other thing. Is that like if we're doing this, we got to like party till the end, even if the end, even if the end is five minutes from now? I know?
Speaker 2:yeah, I feel like you are definitely listening to mary j bludge.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah as long as, as long as we're partying. I guess that's the important thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's why you need to be part of our survival crew, because I am a doomer and gloomer and dan is sometimes funny.
Speaker 3:Um, but also do me and click uh, so the first time we had you, I feel like we congregated for a reason together because, like you know, I'm gonna put sometimes funny on my tombstone.
Speaker 2:Now perfect why do you think we've congregated together?
Speaker 3:naela, I don't know. I feel like, um, it's a bit like. I think people always like find each other, like people always find people in community that are like supposed to be in each other's ether. It's like very strange, um, because when I started my writer account, which was like, I guess, almost a year ago, like certain people who I'm still like close with and I talked to and everything like kind of congregated all around the same time and I always feel like, because I'm a little bit of like a late bloomer when it comes to like writing, it's because a lot of it was because I didn't have the right community.
Speaker 3:Um, and like leah and I have talked more personally about the fact that, like, when I told someone, um, that I was thinking I was going to self-publish, they were like very taken aback, slash, like parentally disappointed, like they were really like but you come from this like traditional background and I remember being like quite taken aback, but also it was like really clarifying. It was like, oh, you're not my people, like no wonder it took me so long to get confident in doing this. It's like less of like the writing skill and more of the fact that I'm just around people who like really care about things that ultimately, like I don't care about and like every publishing path is important and valid. I'm not saying that, but like it just didn't feel accessible to me and instead of focusing on that like lack of access, it was more important for them to like assert their assumption about me that I should want to be in trad as much as they do so like I think part of it is that like we're doomers and that's fun, but I also think like it's a very like the zombie podcast is very supportive and like open to my shenanigans, because I like barely I'm like zombies are fun, like I like a ghost and y'all are still like come into our community. So I think it's like you find the right community at the right time and I feel like when I started the account, like all of you like kind of we all kind of congregated together and like we're all very supportive. So that's kind of how I feel.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like woo, but it's also like I do believe that everything kind of happens when it's supposed to, with obvious exceptions Don't email the pod being like then what about this? I just mean I think everything was kind of falling into place with how I felt about writing, and that community part was the last part to make me feel like I just didn't have the confidence to like assert that that's what I wanted, because there were so many people chirping in my ear being like you want to win big awards and you want to do blah, blah, blah when, like, if I'm tagged on Instagram, I need like 20 minutes to like relax, like it would be cool to win an award, but like, yeah, I just think like some of that is like hoisted on you, so like, by very, very long winded way of saying, like, I think you're just y'all. We like found each other when we were supposed to and it's like so good and generative and I like love that for us.
Speaker 2:Me too. I gotta say. I think the moment where I was like, oh yeah, I adore this human being was when you tagged us talking about Degrassi high which about Degrassi High, which I learned a lot of Americans also know what Degrassi High and I was like, oh my gosh, I love this person. So I am really grateful for you in our community and also really grateful that you feel like you're in a more supported place, because you deserve that. We all do. I am curious why we're going off topic already, but in a good way, on topic, but off topic from my plan. Which is it made me wonder? You said like this is what they value, but it's not what I value. So I'm curious what it is like, what helped you realize what your own values were when it came to your writing and what they are so I have a coaching certification that I got in 2023 because I have all this empathy and I wanted to put it somewhere.
Speaker 3:But part of that was doing coaching sessions with someone and it was during the first round of writing challenge in November.
Speaker 3:That will not be named it was my first time that I was able to like commit to it in some way. But we had we started coaching sessions in October and I was working with one of the like people I was paired with and we were having a coaching session and I was kind of talking about like barriers around, like I don't want to say mindset, because mindset barriers like well, like it's just, it's not really the issue. It tends to be something that's like used to like you know, skip over, like major systemic problems like access to funds and you know various other things. I don't want to say mindset systemic problems like access to funds and you know various other things. I don't want to say mindset, but like I think I was feeling a bit blocked in terms of like what the barrier was.
Speaker 3:And so this person, who is lovely, asked me the meanest question I have ever been asked in my whole life, which is who was your writing for? And I didn't have an answer at that time, like not for the first 30 seconds, and they were like, if you never published anything, if you never won an award and like all of those like trappings around that would, would it still be meaningful to you? Would you still consider it writing. Like who is this practice of writing for? And I was like emotional because I'd never been asked that before and I was like spiraling on this call. And then I was like, well, it's for me. And she was like, okay, then what does it mean to write for you? Which is like the second meanest question I've ever been asked. And then we kind of just like went and like beautiful coaching section. She followed all the protocols A plus, but as we like she went through because the coaching style that we learned is like it's actually self-directed, so like the questions are around helping you come to your own conclusions. So after being asked some subsequent questions, I was like I learned that it's for me and if I never publish publicly, that's okay with me.
Speaker 3:Actually, publishing is an outcome, it's not necessarily a goal. That changed my perspective around why I'm even doing this thing. I feel like in moments where I do have imposter syndrome or I have like self-doubt, I don't just go back to being like you don't have to publish, like if it like and it's still valid, yeah, like those drafts can never see the light of day and it still counts. And it's because it's for you, it's for me to get these stories out and need to tell these stories. I don't necessarily need an audience to tell these stories out and need to tell these stories. I don't necessarily need an audience to tell those stories. And while I do have plans to like publish eventually, it like took weight off my shoulders, I have to tell you. I get that it was so powerful, but in the moment I was a little mad. I was like how dare you?
Speaker 1:Cause I'm a little dramatic with a Q, but it's fine, yeah I don't think I I um ever asked myself who I'm writing for, because I I kind of feel like I just always knew that this is just the story I want to tell um, but when, when, when I'm thinking about it needing to be good for someone, that's when. That's when I can't write and and when I'm like I'm going to probably delete this after I'm done, that's when I write the best that I've ever written, and I learned that a long time ago. It's just like I write with the intention of deleting it and then, when it's good, I don't delete it. And I think that's kind of like a similar thing as to what you're saying is like you can write for yourself and you don't think about the publishing part. And I think that's kind of like a similar thing as to what you're saying is like you, you can write for yourself and you don't think about the publishing part.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of people get hung up on that because they're thinking how am I going to publish? Am I going to go traditional? Am I going to indie publish? You know what, if how? How do I market to, to Amazon and Kindle? And you know, do I need a Facebook account? Do I need to make seven reels a day and become famous before I finish my book so that people will buy my book? And it's like no, just you got to write what's in your heart. It's not about what other people think.
Speaker 2:That's a powerful shift, though I can only imagine, because it sounds like the kind of thing where there's in the writing world and I'm not a I'm not a writer I shouldn't say I'm not a writer, because I do write but I'm not I have not thought about like publishing in since 20 years ago it's been a long time, um, and so I'm not in that world. But I imagine for a long time that there were just a lot of assumptions of like what it meant to be successful and like what the whole point of this was. So that sounds like a huge breakthrough moment, but also maybe a little bit of a scary moment to realize like everything you thought or had been told was what you were supposed to be doing could get thrown out yeah, and like getting comfortable with like living that truth of like not having to, like not feeling owed people, of writing it like update.
Speaker 3:I think that's like and this is very controversial, because when I was in one of my write-ins I was like no, I blocked my whole family from my writer account because I don't need that yeah, me too we are the same with the book club and I'm like, first of all, they don't care, not, not really, because like I have published in like magazines and they have read nada. So like, wow, savannah, slow down, to quote the tiktok audio savannah, slow down.
Speaker 3:Like they're not missing out, because they have lots of opportunities to read stuff and they don't. So I think like one is like kind of empowering yourself to like show up unequivocally and like I'm not saying you gotta block your family, but like you don't need your ops watching your stories.
Speaker 1:So like that's where I'm from, where I don't want my family reading my books, not at all or listening to this podcast.
Speaker 2:How can I talk about my family trauma and then know my mom's gonna listen to it like, not that I talk about it in detail, but even just as like a sidebar?
Speaker 1:don't, don't want her listening if my book is on a bookshelf and my mom's coming to visit, I'm just gonna like turn it around I don't, I don't want her.
Speaker 3:I know a lot of people again, again, like, maybe, like when I first started doing this, I thought I was going to be, I was going to be in the opposite camp, that like wanted them to read everything and I'm like, girl, leave me alone.
Speaker 3:I don't want to understand, I don't want to explain why there's weird glows and, like you know, like with the dead last list, like that is more gory and violent than I've published. I've definitely written it, but I like, in terms of like for public consumption, I don't need them asking me like why there's so much gore, like I don't need, I don't need that. But yeah, I think ultimately it's like positioning yourself to like show up unequivocally and just like do your thing. There are like ancillary tasks, like having a website and being on social media and stuff that like can be helpful. But I think, like, if it's not in your ministry, if it's not if it upsets your spirit, then I think like going back to that why and the why can be like why do you read? Why do you write? Who is it for?
Speaker 3:Like getting back to those kinds of foundational questions always helps me kind of like muddle through Cause. Like I get really frustrated sometimes with like algorithm and I am learning to just untether from that, to be like it's fine. This is for me, people like the thing, it's fine and I think the whole point of that breakthrough is just kind of like prioritizing the creative. Would I love to be doing this in some way, shape or form, full time Probably, but I'm also fine if that doesn't happen. I think like staying open to like all sorts of possibilities has helped me like get out of my head because like yeah, I don't write delete, I kind of just I like to put things in drawers like, I'm like I'll come back to you I don't want to see you for like six months.
Speaker 3:I don't want to see that face. Um, I literally did it a day ago. I was like the novelette. I was like go away, get out of here.
Speaker 1:I'm, I'm done.
Speaker 3:I can't make you what I want you to be. So in the drawer you get like I just am like and it's always negative too because I feel like I'm more dedicated to the series now, because I'm like, thank god that's over, like mama can't save that story, but I can save this one. So I think I don't want to be one of those like everything happens for a reason, because that's annoying and that's obnoxious. But I do feel like sometimes, sometimes it does, it just kind of works out the way it plays out, how it's going to play out and reconnect.
Speaker 2:Play out and reconnecting with your why kind of helps you navigate that yeah, I think knowing when to stop and like, take a break or something or put it away, is just as important as knowing when to continue. But then there are the moments where, like I'm thinking about this one painting I started in 2018 and it's currently sitting on top of our defunct hot tub covered with an old painting shirt, and I'm never I don't think I'm ever gonna fix it, and maybe that's okay, right, but um, we would be remiss to not ask you a couple of questions that we all ask all guests on the podcast. We've asked you a lot of ridiculous questions thanks to zombie ween, but we didn't ask you these ones. And we're doing this for science, because we ask everybody and at some point there will be some sort of like analysis that will come out of this. Yeah, we're going to do science.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you want to ask the first question, dan? Yeah, you know what I love asking you this question because I know the answer. And the answer is neither. Let's say it's a zombie apocalypse. You're alive in the zombie apocalypse. I know you're alive in the zombie apocalypse. I know that you're against that idea, but you are. It happened. But you get to choose fast or slow zombies.
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah, I'm going to go neither, but because it's on this lovely show, I think fast, because it'll be over sooner. Okay, you know what? Hear me out.
Speaker 1:I like, yeah, you know I fast because it'll be over sooner. Okay, you know what? Hear me out. I like, yeah, you know I. I was not expecting that answer. I've you know I've always expect slow zombies because they're easier to get away from. But I understand where you're coming from. Fast zombies will eat you faster it'll be over soon.
Speaker 2:Well then, this will be an interesting next question to lead up to this, since we're going with fast zombies who eat you sooner 40 hour work week or zombie apocalypse which do you choose?
Speaker 3:zombie apocalypse only because if somebody asked me, like if I changed my hair or if I'm from somewhere that I'm not, or any other, like office microaggression again, um, I would rather be eaten by a zombie. So somebody worked in corporate. No, you know I apocalypse.
Speaker 1:I also love that answer because you know you're you're, you're thoroughly a non. You know, we learned we learned this in in the zombie wean that you are not here for survival and what you're saying is you'd rather die than work 40 hours you're other and like, deal with microaggressions and like people asking you stupid questions that's, that's corporate and like.
Speaker 3:The hilarious thing is they're also being zombies at work and I'd still. I would still rather take zombie apocalypse, zombies, yeah, and I agree with you, me too. You know, we watched a movie recently um midsummer. Have you seen midsummer? I would still rather take zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 1:Zombies, yeah, and I agree with you, me too. You know, we watched a movie recently, midsommar. Have you seen Midsommar?
Speaker 3:No, I'm too much of a baby. Goo Goo Gaga Can't watch movies. Read them, though. Read a bunch of horror.
Speaker 1:Read about it then, yeah, maybe there's a book, I don't know. We just saw it last night. But not to spoil anything, but let's just say that this society, um they, when, once you reach a certain age, uh, you just jump off of a cliff and I'm like you know what?
Speaker 2:That's not a bad idea. Yeah, I don't think that spoils anything. Yeah, 72.
Speaker 3:Uh, that's just like, that's just millennials talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Honestly like we're not going to have retirement anyways.
Speaker 2:You know, let's just jump off of a cliff, yeah, like it's just. I think it's a good solution. So I really like your realness around that. And then if you were in a zombie apocalypse with fast zombies, I also have a feeling I know your answer will be, but I'm going to ask you anyways what would be your weapon of choice?
Speaker 3:what would be your weapon of choice. I mean, I feel like and this is bolstered by something I read about the? Um, like folklore story around gang gang sarah, um, which I'm actually thinking like big old pouch of salt, like it's so old school but it is so effective, like I think I'm going salt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I want to see what, like various types of zombies, how they would react to salt, because I don't, you know, you don't see people trying it.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. And like newfangled zombies that are abstracted from their origins, yeah, it's just like shoot them in the head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, from their origins, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just like shoot them in the head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like the yeah the newfangled viral Romero zombies that are, that are no longer based on on magical roots, like you know, make it. You know, throwing salt at them. People don't think of it, but maybe maybe it works. Maybe it works, we don't know. Somebody, should somebody do the science? Yeah, well, I'm reading.
Speaker 3:I'm reading Obeah in the rich craft, which was written by some English loser anyway, um, and that's like funny because he thinks he's like denigrating us oh as like Caribbean black people.
Speaker 3:But I was like no dude, this is the most comprehensive like recollection and documenting of like a Obeia ritual. I have not been able to find this stuff like yes, you have to read through. I think there's like one like line that's like that someone did an incantation in like uncouth, like african dialect or whatever. You have to suffer through that stuff. But I'm like like you know he's a loser, but like there's a lot of documentation around our practices that like I I still recognize, and like the heavy use of like salts as like a defensive weapon against like evil, like permeates, even within that like first chapter. I literally just got it today. So it's like no, I'm going salt, it's old school, it's a classic, it works. Yeah, it's always available. Like there's very few salt shortages. So I'm like I'm going salt every time.
Speaker 2:That's very true, you know. Put that in your bug out bags.
Speaker 1:And you know what, for people that scoff at the idea, rub salt in your eyes.
Speaker 2:Not a good time. Yeah, not a good time all right last question, one very important last question.
Speaker 1:Um, and you already use salt, so you can't use salt for this answer. Fair, it's the zombie apocalypse and you only get to eat one unlimited shelf, stable food item for the rest of your life. What do you choose?
Speaker 3:I mean I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout out my little buddy, I'm going to go. Tinned beans actually, oh my.
Speaker 1:God, I'm going to shout out that he almost made me spit my Red Bull out.
Speaker 3:One because I'm committed to the bit, and two, beans are pretty good. With things you can make rice and beans. Have you been?
Speaker 2:co-opted by Big Emodium Mayula.
Speaker 3:I would love Big Emodium. Decades like that. I'm like I have no shame, like give me. I was just saying that, like why the heck am I congested all the time? And like there's no kleenex sponsorship, like where is the swan con? So I'm kind of like listen, big emodium, you want to run me my check?
Speaker 2:good, you know yeah, they just pay in a big pallet of imodium at your front door and if you've still not listened to zombie ween game show 2024, this is what you would be getting is some really great bean jokes and banter between naela and jack gallaghan. Author of zombie nerd and the half-term harrowing. Yeah, okay, I've been dying to ask you this question. Your tagline on instagram is you write stories for readers of haunted women pushed to the brink, and I want to know what that means to you and how. At what point did you say that's what I'm writing?
Speaker 3:and they're like, ready for revenge and ready to, like you know, push back.
Speaker 3:I think, um, I've always used like writing to talk about my fears and like to enact my rage, my waters of rage, um, about various different things, certainly like racism, and then, without giving too much of a spoiler, like domestic labor and how unfair that is, um, or how unfairly split that is um, and then in the novella, which is like series, which is around like gentrification, horror, and like who and displacement, and like who gets to like belong and what is home, um, I think those are indicative of that experience as well, where people are being pushed in all, particularly Black women, but in like all spheres of our like lives. It's very, all encompassing and I think, like, I think we've just we've just had it. So I think that's the type of experience that I want to talk about, while like the obvious disclaimer that there isn't one Black woman's experience, I think it's informed by what I've experienced, especially as somebody in the diaspora. But that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to show complicated Black women trying to make it through, and then, when that doesn't work, revenge.
Speaker 2:I love the revenge, fun revenge.
Speaker 1:Do you think that we can see some major change in society from ghosts who've had too much of it? They've had enough.
Speaker 2:You mean like they're going to come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think we can get some hauntings to change things that are going on right now?
Speaker 3:This was an unplanned question and I kind of love it I mean, my longest conspiracy theory is that people who don't believe in ghosts have to not believe that, because their ancestors have done some shit and it's just easier to cope. Oh, you know and you know and I'm saying that about my own ancestors?
Speaker 3:I'm not even talking about like colonial stuff. Like I have, I have too much awareness to like not be scared of ghosts and to not be, to not believe. I think you know, but I have always, I have always said that and I think, like you know, I think mother nature is clapping back and I think the ancestral plane and I know it sounds very like conspiracy theory, but like I feel like there is like a spiritual like, like an underworld, like chasm happening as well. I've had a lot more like deja vu lately as an aside, but yeah, I think there's like, I think you know, hauntings, all that stuff. Like I think we're going to see, anecdotally maybe, or maybe like not anecdotally, I think like ghosts are real and we're gonna see more disturbances because they're probably like kicking it on the ancestral plane being like what do you do?
Speaker 2:and, like you said, the chasm I think is really real. I follow this person on the internets who actually, incidentally, lives 25 minutes from us and I just haven't met her yet. Um, but I'll just randomly shout her out. Her name is katie swallow tarot and, uh, all of her focus of her work is on, like, ancestral connection and healing work, and she says the interesting things on there about, like, like what you said, like there are some ancestors out there that are just assholes and they get. They're not, they're not happy about any kind of quote-unquote progress or things changing from the way it was, and then's the ones that are on your side. It's just really interesting to hear from her.
Speaker 2:And then also speaking of haunted things and ghosts, taking this totally sideways, but I love this conversation. I went on a deep dive of haunted dolls today on Instagram. Let me know if you want to see them, nayila, maybe you're already looking at that, but it was like all of these dolls that are supposedly possessed, and it was like all of these dolls that are supposedly possessed and it was quite interesting. Um, so I'm with you and you know, if you've watched buffy the vampire slayer, you know there's stuff going on down there stranger things.
Speaker 3:It's all there, yeah, like it's all. Just like people like, why are you always writing about ghosts? And I'm like I write about people. I like to classify it as, like, varying states of unaliveness. Is my official, like my official term, um, which is long, but it is accurate. Um, I do like a ghost and like I love like a cursed object. I don't love a doll because, like I don't like it, I don't I don't love that, but I'm talking to my mom and I was like, why do we love cursed objects so much?
Speaker 3:and my mom was like it's just like. I can't explain it to you. I think it's just like being, it's just like part of being caribbean. I don't know why we love this and I was like me neither, but I also love that for us. Um, but yeah, creamy dolls, I mean I think I feel like there was one in like poltergeist or some other movie that traumatized me as a child. No, um, also like, do you ever think about and I know we've leah and I've had this conversation but like all the 90s was like those scary shows just aimed at children and like are you afraid of the dark?
Speaker 3:you don't have the shows like cryptkeeper was a 90s show like are you afraid of the dark was a 90s show, goosebumps, which I didn't watch as much because that was slightly too old for that. Um, like charmed, like all of those like shows and I was like these.
Speaker 2:We shouldn't have been watching a lot of things that I was exposed to as a child, that if I had a kid which I thankfully don't, um, sorry parents out there, just personally grateful uh I would never show my child I'll just put it that way a lot of. It's scary, it's true. Uh, I was gonna ask you this, though, because you mentioned the varying states of unaliveness. It was, of course, one of the first things I asked you, and I was like I really like this person and I want an excuse to get on the podcast. I'm like do you have zombies? And your answer was varying states of unaliveness, and I'm wondering if you could just unpack that a little bit more what that means for you so what?
Speaker 3:I think zombies? I think more like in its, because we're dramatic where it's a dramatic culture, but like I think haiti, I think like what, I think the haitian folklore, like they really they ate with that. Like the whole notion of like zombies being like a product of subjugation and like again, I'm gonna plug this book for the 80 hundredth time in desafi, the way that, like frank etienne um like is using them and like the chicken as like forms of resistance is like very fascinating to me. But I'm not. I don't think I'm doing that. I think for me, in the novella in book two of the novella series, there's going to be undead people, um, but it's not going to like look like a zombie per se, um, just because yeah for me.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of like that kind of belongs to that tradition and I'm that's not really what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do with any sort of like character in terms of like variant states of unalive is to kind of to like remove that binary of like alive and not alive I think I'm always playing with. I think I did it in my most recent short story. I'm always like playing with that because I grew up in a very like ghost positive house. Thank goodness, Like the people who had their parents be like ghosts aren't real. I'm so sorry that sounds terrible.
Speaker 2:I never had to hear that in my life, and I never will, um, thank goodness.
Speaker 3:But like, yeah, I feel like it. This notion that there's a binary is like something I never grew up with and like something I kind of don't really believe and like I think like undeadish characters. Help me explore that and also talk about how, like some things are so inescapable dead. So I think, like that's kind of what I'm doing, what I'm incorporating characters of various states of on a live. That's kind of where the direction that I'm going in.
Speaker 3:But I don't know that I'd call them zombies and you know, I think there are some probably soon really good Haitian writers coming out with some zombie books that I'm excited to read and see their take, as well as some like another like horatage pick is Adriana in All Our Dreams, or In All my Dreams, that's. I think it's Rene DePestre. He's doing like a really old school story with that book. So I'm interested to see what they do, but I'm not necessarily interested to like be like to create those types of characters necessarily. So well, very long winded way of saying why I'm kind of pivoting in a different direction.
Speaker 2:I think that's very fair and like the episode is coming out tomorrow, which will be. I don't know why. I think that's very fair and like the episode is coming out tomorrow, which will be. I don't know why. I said that because, whatever, leave it in, dan, because it's the past and this will come out in the future.
Speaker 2:But anyways, laurie Calcaterra is coming back on the podcast and they don't use the term zombie, they also use the term undead. They're talking about a completely different situation, where death is broken in this circumstance, and so I don't have an attachment to a particular definition, I think. I think we welcome all unalive if there's, if they're corporeal, like if there's a body at some point that this unalive person is in. I feel like that's my threshold.
Speaker 1:I don't know about you, dan um, I'll admit that, like my, my hyper focus, the thing that gives me dopamine, is thinking about the collapse of civilization, but specifically the more Romero, the post-Romero definition of the zombie, and recently I've been thinking about how the word zombie was just kind of co-opted and originally he wanted to call them ghouls, and I'm like, maybe, maybe I should just start calling the zombies that I love ghouls and, uh, I don't know, but this is a poorly thought out statement, but it's something I think about from time to time because that is like where my, where my love is. But I want to learn the things that I've been neglecting, the things that I've failed to learn because the modern definition is so far from the origin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the dominant definition. Right, Like the definition that people think is the definition, but it's actually just a culturally appropriated thing. But what was the? The other book that I want to watch? Wow, I want to watch a book, naela, there is a certain book coming out that if, if they're too busy, I completely understand, but I'm hoping we might be able to get to talk to them, but I'm definitely reading it. Which is the summer. I ate the rich, which is I. I think you were the one who alerted me to that. Um, that sounds like an amazing book. I've pre-ordered it. I'm waiting what?
Speaker 3:corpus, ford's eight. They ate that, the whole conceit, um, locked in. I cannot wait to see what they do with that. I'm a little, I'm a little wide out. Um, I'm gonna be honest, but this feels like it feels like they're taking the zombie back. Number one love that for me, and throwing in an anti-capitalist lens is like even better. So I literally cannot wait. And then I think Aaron E Adams is. Well, that book's been pushed, so I don't know when the new publication, the new published date is, but I'm looking forward to looking forward to hers too, I would say, as it relates to like not knowing that sort of more background stuff. Like one, I don't think they make it easy. And two, I feel like it's an established trope. Now, right, like all of the things, all of the zombie movies that are considered classics, like I think, like 28 days later and I don't know the movies, I'm sorry, it's okay, I don't know your canon.
Speaker 3:I normally like to like to study and know things. I don't know that canon, but like all of those like canonical movies are out there and like I don't think you can change it and like for what it's worth, I don't think it's wrong to use that definition or to create in that canonical representation. I just think for me, I really revere what those storytellers are doing and I think, unless I'm personally trying to do something in that vein, I think I'm personally more comfortable with like using a different term, but I don't think like it's like bad to. I think like it's like, at least as it pertains to zombie movies, and like I'm not a movieologist, but like even in my like, even in the last 30 years, there's that canon and the way the audience expects zombies to look is already established. So like, how do you fight against that? Expects zombies to look is already established. So like, how do you fight against that?
Speaker 3:I sent this video to leah about haiti's carnival and the comments were a mess because it wasn't like what people imagine carnival to be. It wasn't like, you know, bright colors and everything. It was like very traditional, like how it probably was when our ancestors, like got to, or my ancestors like got to the caribbean islands but it was beautiful because it was like so much song and dance and joy, um, but the comments were literally like gross and being like this isn't a real carnival. This looks terrible, like all that stuff. So, like, I do think like some of this is like people's like expectation, yeah, and perception of what they think.
Speaker 3:I think all I've been trying to do is like learn more, which is where, like when I was doing the original research for the black horatage, I was like this doesn't have, like we don't got any zombies, like I would really love to center. Like haitian, um the Zafi is like a twofer because it was written in Haitian Creole, which, um, I think, for like 71, would have been like very, um, like groundbreaking and stuff. So, yeah, I think all you can do is like kind of learn, learn you on, like the books that are out there, um, and you know, I don't think I think it'll be very challenging to compete with like such established canon I think people are people having like, a like, a preset expectation.
Speaker 1:It's like it's hard to get around that because it's it's people's, it's it's ignorance that drives that. They. They have a preconceived notion. They don't know the, the origin of what they're celebrating. It's like it's like going to mexico and being mad that they don't have chalupas, you know like yeah, it's an abstraction or it's just a different experience, um, but I do think.
Speaker 2:I think you're right to summarize the rich could be a breakthrough novella. Uh, maika and maritza and if I'm saying your names wrong, I'm sorry because I'm reading them right now but the, the sister authors that are writing this they've gotten a lot of publicity about it, um, and so I'm very excited about that because I think it could be one of those things that, like, becomes a movie and can bring that perspective back into the mainstream, because I think that there's certainly room for that. There's so many different versions of zombies. At this point, there should be more of a space in the mainstream for haitian zombies. Um, like sylvester barzi's book undead soil is, um, inspired by that a little bit, and it's just more of that, please, because it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:But I was thinking about what you were saying, um, naela around, like reading this book about Obia Am I saying that right, obia, yes, obia, thank you and that it was written by some bitter white guy. And that's the same problem that I've found in terms of just trying to find books written about Haitian culture and zombies by Haitian people, like, not fiction ones, but nonfiction, all the ones that are like the mainstream ones that I find are white people, and it's just really a bizarre reality that just shows you everything about our history as a world with colonialism, and just how like people um, some people get to study other people, if that makes sense, instead of hearing more from the folks themselves who are having that lived experience and their own voice of the history. So I'm still looking. I've got a couple leads, I've written a few people some emails.
Speaker 1:Let's see if they get me back, get back to me, but yeah, um, I did have a question and I might edit this out if I, if I'm just like completely wrong about this. Uh, so, obia, I remember this. I remember hearing this word and I think it's when we were in jamaica. Um, I remember like like trying to learn something about like I was, I was genuinely curious because I don't know anything really about the caribbean, and I was, we were there and I'm like does jamaica have their own kind of voodoo? Because I tried looking up voodoo first and I didn't find anything. And I'm pretty sure I heard the word Obeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they have. Well, I mean it's Caribbean stuff, because things like diffuse but like if you had to put use like an umbrella term, there are like subsequent, like like myelism and blanking on the other one I don't know why Santeria, and then like opia and then one other practice which I'm blanking on. It'll probably come to me at an inconvenient time. Those are like more localized versions. Me at an inconvenient time. Those are like more localized, yeah, versions. But obia is kind of like the general, like the umbrella term for like the witchcraft that came with, like people who were enslaved and brought to the caribbean. Because obia is like um, an ashanti word, I believe um, so it's a magic system. That's like well, I would say that, like say that, like I say it's OB inspired because like I haven't had the absolute privilege to talk to an OB practitioner and it's very likely I won't because it's outlawed in most Caribbean islands still, it's not really enforced.
Speaker 3:Um, and some of it is there are.
Speaker 3:There have been instances which is the same with a lot of practices where, like people take advantage of, people, do a fraud and then the government or the law has to get involved so they don't really enforce it. But like I haven't had the privilege to talk to somebody about everything and then like, so I don't really call it that, I call it inspired. So I don't really call it that. I call it inspired, but it's a bit complicated of a practice because, for you know, they used to have an Obeah person on the plantation who would like help people, but over time, as things like moved more towards like Christianity and stuff, that role started to peter out and Conjure Women talks about this a lot. Um, I know that people didn't love that book but I was like I don't know, it was like very accurate. Um, it was. It was very challenging book but like that's how it was, like I, that's what it was like the, the whole experience of like this, the kind of final opium woman on this plantation, if you will. So yeah, it's a very complicated set. It's it's a set of principles, kind of linked by like three themes which I talked about more recently. So around like it's really like plant and herbalism, and then there is like necromancy and like spells in that part, but it's it's hard to know, like, who was doing what, because the documenting was not necessarily being done by enslaved people, um, so the book that I referenced earlier is one of the few that I've been able to find so far that like somebody was taking the time to like write down the ingredients and the rituals and the practices. It's done incredibly disrespectfully but with a form of magic that doesn't have a lot of documentation and like I absolutely know that there were reasons for that to keep that like that was gatekeeper for a reason.
Speaker 3:But if you're trying to learn and gain more information, it's not as well documented as like a voodoo or a hoodoo, where there were people who were documenting that and in the like 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s, like Zora Hurston, neal was like a huge folklorist and documenter and like she, I believe, went to Haiti and stuff and was able to talk to practitioners and documented a lot of stuff. So, like voodoo, there's a lot of documentation. Um, and yeah, if you're looking for, um, some folklore around voodoo, I think zorn um neil hurston is probably the folklorist that you want to look into. I don't know titles. Um, and then, more recently, um, eden royce does a lot of like scholarship and writing around hoodoo, um.
Speaker 3:So yeah, as it relates to the caribbean, I'm not surprised that people don't know a lot about it. I think, like when I was growing up, like people just assumed that everyone was from jamaica and like, really, if it wasn't for riri, people wouldn't even know about barbados, which is my mom's island. So like I do think some of this is like just like not people not realizing that like these places existed versus like rampant malice. It's is like just like not people not realizing that like these places existed versus like rampant malice.
Speaker 2:It's just like just lower level of awareness, I guess, yeah yeah, I mean, it's not like I can say that my education system, growing up, was very interested in me knowing a lot of things other than what they wanted me to know, to be frank. So, um, there's a lot of re-education as an adult. But getting back to your swamp horror novelette, um, that, I think, is what you're working on right now. Is that correct?
Speaker 3:um, I mean I'm, am I working on it or is it working on me? I'm just sort of like I, I got through that's not the one in the drawer, is it? It's the one in the drawer now. No you ever. Just, it was kind of like a seinfeld plot where, like plot wise, I don't know what happened, like it's a very scary book about something yeah about something I guess um, but like
Speaker 3:I identify it's just not, I think, the thing speaking of selves and speaking of lives and things like I think every time you write something and you continue to write, you're a different writer every project.
Speaker 1:Wow and.
Speaker 3:I started that project in 2024 when I was still like not as like skilled, let's say, and we're going to put an asterisk around that because like I'm not, like I'm not talking like I'm like like I'm not talking, like I'm like some fancy writer, I just mean like what I'm talking about. Skilled is like I, if I get into a corner, like I don't need schwazy rip, like I can get myself out of that corner, whereas like I used to write myself into corners and then I just couldn't get out and I think I wrote myself in this novelette into a corner and I just didn't have the like. Characters don't have backstory, it's like characters are barely characters, they're just like. They're like concepts of characters, they're like very flat and very wooden and it's hard to like build a compelling story around that. Part of it was it was for a short story, so you don't need as much character development, um, compared to a novel or a novel novella or anything longer. But the longer it got, because it just kind of the story kept expanding, the more I'm like, well, these people are like not the most interesting characters and like I need more.
Speaker 3:So it was supposed to publish. Well, it was always supposed to. It was always in the air in terms of, like finances, because I'm gonna be self-publishing, but now it's kind of up in the air to be like I think I gotta, I think I gotta start over, like I gotta be one of those like corkboard people with their post-it notes and their note cards and just like figure out what the story is supposed to be. And I think I posted about this recently because I had seen a writer that I admire they got almost 50K in there Like this is not the story and this is not the way the story needs to be told. And I remember being like too upset about it. So it was a chronicle of a drawer foretold Like I knew I was headed exactly in the direction of this other writer, where I knew that I had written myself in a corner and I could not get out, and so I'm excited about it. It's a fun well, not fun for the characters, it's actually really bloody and gory for them but fun for you.
Speaker 2:I get that.
Speaker 3:But it's just it needs. I need to start over and I hate that for me but I also kind of knew, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it'll be better for it. Like I think again, like knowing when to stop and backtrack is part of art.
Speaker 1:And that, yeah, that's, I mean you're describing me. You're describing me like my driver's license, naila.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:You know, if all you needed was words to complete a book, I've written like three books.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:But I keep deleting the words.
Speaker 3:I got through a whole novel, like I did the November writing challenge that will not be named. I that draft has 120,000 words and I don't think I can use any of it because I was like who are these people? What are they doing? Like, and I remember the writing coach from writers atelier, which is a community that I'm in. They're great, I remember, and like she's lovely. So this is like she doesn't feel this way.
Speaker 3:But I remember thinking to myself like she's probably like if you had just listened to me, like four months ago, cause she was like I think you need to maybe like see where you're at with this, cause I kind of feel like you're at words and like it's not, like you're not, it's not going the way you're hoping it's going to go. But I was like no, I just sit, like you're saying I just need more words. And and then eventually I was like this is 120,000 words long. I don't know where we're going, I do not know we're on a riverboat of no rules. Like I don't know where we're going, I don't know what the characters are doing. I hadn't even ended the story, like there was no like ending, it was just floating off and I just was like that could be okay though.
Speaker 3:Story drawer, drawer story.
Speaker 2:You're friends now.
Speaker 3:And I know that I have to fully start over with that one you can pants a novel but should you?
Speaker 1:Something that I've been thinking about a lot lately and this has kind of been the solution to all of my problems recently. I've been thinking about how people used to write novels, like before computers, right? So like we're on our computers, we write a draft and then we're like this draft needs edits now because I'm done, and so you go back and you delete words or you add words and you write more description and stuff like that, and then you're like second draft is done, and then you do that until it's ready to go. But back before computers they had to write everything over again, like with their hands. They had to have a copy of it, like sitting on their desk and page by page, being like all right, I'm going to write page number 53 now, and page number 53, hopefully, is a better version of the page 53 that I have over here, and I think that there's some wisdom in doing that.
Speaker 1:It's just, like you know, you have, you have a draft and now you're just going to write a completely different one. And now you're just going to write a completely different one and it's going to be inspired by this other thing that you have sitting on your desk and, like you know when you're pantsing especially, like you know how, like the characters take over and the plot just kind of goes on its own. Sometimes, like I feel like if you're just rewriting that thing, that can happen more organically and a lot of the problems that you face might just fix themselves. That's my belief, anyways, that's, that's my, uh, my, my shoehorned writing advice from an unpublished author who um wishes that they got their book out before the world ended too late.
Speaker 2:I mean it's not ended. It's not ended, not yet. We got a couple and also kind of ended many times and then life goes on. So that helps me remember that it's going to be okay now you know. You've mentioned the black horatage challenge a few times and for those who don't know what it is, can you just share a little bit about it?
Speaker 3:so basically, it's me being petty um, which is I would hear about all of these so-called classics. People would post their you know graphics and there would never be any like black writers on there. So I wanted to showcase the elders One, because I'm scared of ghosts, as we all know.
Speaker 3:And two just because a thing that often happens and I do think this happens with classics widely that often happens and I do think this happens with classics widely, while, or widely is that like somebody just gets picked as like the person from the 60s and they're just supposed to represent everybody from the 60s and there's no nobody knows about all the other people who may have been writing during that era, um, writing about similar themes, like they just fade away. So that was another thing that was really important to me was to see who else was writing in the 80s. For example, when we think about horror or SFF and we think about the 70s, 80s and 90s, there's really only two people who get name dropped, so Butler and Dew, and I kind of just wanted to see what else was happening. So it's 11, 12 books.
Speaker 3:I have created kind of like a more live portion in my Discord where I've picked books from like I don't know, like 1900-ish to it's 2000 now, but basically like, um, anything that's like written before to the year 2000. Um, with some exceptions, there's a couple people I had to leave off because they were like too problematic or like honestly, because I didn't feel like it, because this is subjective. That's literally in my disclaimer.
Speaker 1:I didn't feel like it I didn't feel like including it um.
Speaker 3:So I kind of highlighted 11 or 12 books that kind of go from like 1900 to. I think I have like 99, so I think we end or 97. We end with beloved, basically, um, by tony morrison who, like gotta give props to my queen. I wouldn't even be writing horror if it wasn't for beloved. So, um, yeah, um, you can join our story graph and we have. I'm trying to see if we want to do discussions, but because of what happened with a redacted book, I just feel like, is this just going to be people hearing me rant? Because, like, I don't think many of us want this so I feel like, I, I like it yeah I like
Speaker 2:your rats, I gotta figure out what?
Speaker 3:like I'm hopeful, because Lyndon Hills, which is the February read, is like anti-capitalist and like Dante's Inferno. But I also feel like it's going to be like that 80s show, dynasty, like it's a bit of a wild card, but I'm like I'm into it. I think that is going to be one that's going to be good for discussion. I think it's out of print or it's being reprinted so it might be challenging for folks to get, but I think it'll be fun Very different from what we've done so far because, as Leah pointed out, we've done some zombie novels.
Speaker 3:We did a Zora Nurse Hurston meal with a Revenge Ghost story in Spunk, which was fun. Fun, just like a really quick short story. Um, we've done butler. So, yeah, just like a.
Speaker 2:I think I wanted to do some petty well, I think you know, uh, you're, uh, there's nothing wrong with being critical of work, you know. Or like seeing what's good or bad, because how many things did you read written by white men specifically, that are canon, that are just bad, or like you just never want to read them again? And women, too, like pride and prejudice. I'm sorry, I don't like it. I don't like the pride and prejudice and zombies, and I don't like the one without zombies. I'm sorry, I just don't. I don't like, uh, what's the other one? Um, there's a zoe in it. Catcher in the rye, hate it anyways, I never read the one with the blinking light and leonardo dicaprio's in the movie.
Speaker 2:I'm so great at names.
Speaker 3:My point is, these are all supposedly leonardo dicaprio and like when we watched romeo and june or romeo plus juliet last last year, the year before. Yeah, don't do it y'all. I haven't thought about him since then sorry, it doesn't age well that movie it's not even that it ages well. I just feel like Harold Perrineau should have been in it more, and that makes me angry.
Speaker 2:He's just kind of the only one who can really act yeah, he's just kind of a creep.
Speaker 2:The more I know about Leonardo, the more I don't want to support his work. But that regardless, my point is is like I think that, um, first of all, good to be petty, because we do need to learn more about these authors. Like I didn't know there was a zora neale hurston book that's about haiti, for example, and like the fact that in my searches in my algorithm, somehow, literally that just didn't even come up. Naela is just, I think, says enough all by itself. Yeah, um, so I think it's really awesome that you're doing this challenge, but also that the books are there, what they are, for that moment in time, and some of them are going to be really, really excellent and some of them are going to be less excellent. Um, and I am curious if you want to share a little bit about your thoughts on Clay's arc versus Dazafi and, like, if you're going to ask listeners of this podcast to read one of those, which would you choose and why?
Speaker 3:Making me sound like a hater again to all your, to your audience, this. So I think the thing that people don't always want to contend with is reading classic. The purpose of reading classics is context right. Contend with is reading classic. The purpose of reading classics is context right, like, because why did I have to read dracula three times as somebody who, as someone who studied literature, yes, I know I signed up for a certain amount of nonsense, but three times, dracula being the sort of seminal vampire, whatever, and we've, no, not one nary soul ever brought up fledgling like, which is a butler and like more contemporary. So, like, the whole idea is to get contacts and that's what that's. My biggest disclaimer is with these. Is that like and I needed to this disclaimer because clay's arc fill me with waters of rage, me too, always, they're not always going gonna be a banger.
Speaker 3:And I went in to like desafi with like, almost no expectations because, like, I initially didn't really get the conceit, I didn't understand where the chicken part came in, and I know that's like emblematic as a symbol that's in this folklore, tradition and culture, but I didn't. I went in, went in being like, oh, I don't know, I feel so like ignorant around the folklore and the culture. So I went in really tentative and it was awesome. Zafi gave me everything I needed. It was quick. There's a particularly enjoyable scene that I like literally cheered, being like I know that's right. I loved, loved, loved the ending of that book Very satisfying. Probably unrealistic, but very satisfying.
Speaker 1:Do they throw salt at the zombies? Sorry, do they throw salt at the zombies? Is that why you cheered?
Speaker 3:Salt is involved. I don't want to spoil it. Salt is involved.
Speaker 2:I will say that, wow, because of your review of Clay's arc, where you then I mean Dazafi in my brain because of you for months now, but I'm the world's slowest reader. But anyways, you were talking about Clay's arc and you were making some very apt comparisons to like why Dazafi is so much better. I don't remember what you said, but you, finally, I was like I got to get this book and it literally just arrived last night. So, yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait to talk with you about it.
Speaker 3:I think I rated it like a 3.5 because I still had like some qualms, mainly with pacing, and it's also written in verse, which is like not excessive. Like I know there's going to be people who are like, why is this in verse? Like this is the worst. It's actually not. It was great, but I know, like between format and like translated work it's not the most accessible to people. So I wouldn't say that I'm like it's a five star book. I just meant like I rated it in kind to be like it. Just there's just something about it that just makes me so filled with joy because I felt like these people who are being denigrated, like they, it just felt very like. It felt like a revenge story Finally, you know, so I love that part whereas in clay's arc god, every time I talk about this book in my head I hear the tiktok audio. That's like be nice, I'm finding it, it take you that long it does.
Speaker 3:Um, oh gosh. Okay, I'm gonna say my same disclaimer that I always say um, I'm not a futurist by trade, right like I, I'm taking it day by day, and the day by day is pretty rancid and like the vibes are rancid yes um, so I'm not a futurist.
Speaker 3:I don't read a lot of dystopian fiction because it usually requires like way too much suspension of disbelief and it's always meant to be a call to action. But, as I quipped, I'm not called to act. Nine times out of ten I'm like I'm out of here, so like that, I'm reading the book through that lens, right, so like I'm already a hater. And then there was just so much stuff in there that just felt unnecessary in terms of like, okay, again, I struggle, I struggle, it's okay. Okay, because you know what I love how well-paced it is, I love that it's realistic and it's so well-written.
Speaker 3:What I didn't love is there are no characters to root for. I just ended up getting to the end of the novel being like what emotion was this supposed to instill in me? Is this supposed to be a call to action? Because the ending for me, particularly with a redacted final character, kind of resigned to her fate, is, if it was in some sort of youtube, um, like spark notes parody, the theme would be the moral of the story, would be like it'd be like that sometimes. That's like literally how it felt. Sometimes you know there's a zombie apocalypse and like it don't work out. Yeah, that was literally ending and I was just like sometimes the evolution, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Sometimes the evolution of the human species is alien cat boys Naila.
Speaker 2:That's just how it goes. Sometimes it'd be that way right? I don't know. I think sometimes you gotta get bricked. Is alien cat boys Naila.
Speaker 3:That's just how it goes. Sometimes it'd be that way, right? I don't know. I think sometimes you got to get bricked, aka. The Dazaffy story is more my steed, listen my thing, because the reader community can sometimes be a lot.
Speaker 3:If you like it, I love it, but I did not. I didn't even like it. I was just like what is the point of this? I think, as always, I'm a better person for have reading, like for having had read it, but I it's so bad that I debated taking it off the black lortage challenge because I just don't feel like it's doing anything for the wider conversation of like what her peers were doing. Because I said there's kind of two books, two zombie books, in and around the same time. So you've got three zombie books between like 74 and 88 black writers. What are they saying? So I'm withholding my final verdict until I read Hadriana in all my dreams, which is kind of the final zombie novel of that era, and I will probably do a more comprehensive comparison.
Speaker 3:But if I'll stick to what I said in my video, if you are really interested in horror, if you are interested in looking at canonical works, if you love endings that piss you off, read clayzark. You want to have a good time, which you know, given gestures, broadly you deserve. If you want to learn a little bit more about haitian folklore, if you just want to have a revenge story that's fun and quick, then read dazafi. That's all I can say because I don't want to like pit the two together and like I don't want to be seen as a hater because we're zero for zero with butler right now. But that's what I would say if you really like, if you're really invested in like reading like her catalog, don't skip it. And the other disclaimer is I didn't read the other two books in the patternist series, so maybe reading book one and two will give you more context that I don't have. Maybe Is that fair.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I feel like I'm hating again.
Speaker 2:You're doing great. But also, if you want to hear more of Nailah hating, you should go to the Discord where you can watch the whole vlog, which, trust me, you will laugh, even if you've not read uh clay's arc. It's just very fun to hear your your hot takes on um on books. So highly recommend, go to it's naela's carnival right and people can find it on naela's ghost carnival, that's right. You can find it on. Naela king writes instagram links and elsewhere. Because instagram let's not talk about zuck right now. That would that would take up the little bit of time that we have left. Yeah, can somebody haunt?
Speaker 1:Zuckerberg.
Speaker 2:Maybe he is. Honestly, I'd be haunted. Yeah, um. To end on a fun note, I would love to know from each of us um our top three ridiculously fun and irresponsible things we would do if society collapsed in a zombie apocalypse and we could do whatever we wanted. Um and dan, I'm gonna put you on the spot and have you go first. Okay, um, just one, and then I'll be you. Oh, just one, just one to start.
Speaker 1:Just one you don't want me to go through my whole list, sure? The first thing that I would love to do in an apocalypse is um create a free and safe society where the rules make sense. Um, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:I'd love that that's so fun and irresponsible. So fun and irresponsible.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I mean like it'd be. It'd be like, hey, don't kill anyone that's still alive and uh, don't be an asshole and let's not steal from each other. And, um, you know rules like that, rules that make sense, like we're not gonna have rules where it's like if you were, if you, if, if people that you know lived outside the community. But now you live inside the community and you were born there. You're not allowed to be in the community anymore because there's a law that says that you can't be related to people who were born outside of the community at one point in time because you look like you're outside of the community. We won't have laws like that. Those are stupid, nonsense laws and I don't have room for them in my society. And it'd be really fun to have normal rules that make sense. So fun, yeah, and it'd be really fun to have normal rules.
Speaker 2:That makes sense so fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be more fun than now. My second one on on on the subject of stealing. Um, stealing is fun, and I would. I would want to steal all the things that I want, but only from dead people.
Speaker 2:So, like you know, if the house down the road is like all they all turned into zombies, I just go loot their house and just like. It's like shopping, but you don't have to pay for anything, but there's ghosts, dan. So in your world of the unaliveness, na'ila is there still?
Speaker 3:risk stealing from a dead person. Did that person?
Speaker 1:suck, yeah, yes, um, which actually goes into my third one. Uh, specifically, people who suck, I just want to burn a house down. Um, so I just go find a house. Maybe there'd be some way to identify, you know, the, the, the, the personal, the personality of the person who lived in the house before. Maybe there's some type of sign that we can see that might suggest, hey, this person's an asshole. And then just burn the house down. You know, like, maybe it maybe says like Trump in the front yard, oh wow, we're getting explicit.
Speaker 2:We could just go to like really rich people's houses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could burn down a rich person around here, we'd rob it first We'd steal all the stuff, then set it on fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, or live in it or live in it.
Speaker 1:I don't live in it. We'll become rich, that's how we that's how we move upward, and that's our upward mobility in societies.
Speaker 2:We steal a rich person's house and then set fire to all the ones around that's how you know that american dream is a myth, because we're currently contemplating the only way that we would get rich is in a zombie apocalypse, where we could just take over a dead rich person's house. That's the solution.
Speaker 1:That's how you get wealth. That's what they taught us what are you?
Speaker 2:what are your ridiculously fun and irresponsible things you would do?
Speaker 3:okay, so well, there's like one and one a, so one would be theft, but then a would be like distributing the goods. Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2:It's good to give, yeah to be to share and be like distributing the goods that people need.
Speaker 3:It's good to give, yeah To share and be good. Two, to find every person who told me that ghosts aren't real and ruin their life and tell them that they're wrong, and then three throw a carnival. Yeah, with those ghosties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could have all of your stolen stuff as prizes in your carnival.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, I like those. But also I want to point out that both of you, the first things that you each said, were very responsible and kind, not at all irresponsible or ridiculous, but I'll forgive you. In this world, being kind is irresponsible. I feel like I took my own prompt more seriously, to be unserious because my three are raid a Michael's art store. I would refuse. I would burn down a hobby lobby. Yeah, I'd rate a Michael's art store.
Speaker 2:We burned down all the hobby lobbies yes, first, and make really weird little inspirational signs and like sculptures that I just leave wherever I go so people can find them and have like a moment of a whimsy moment. Yeah, I love that. I a whimsy moment. Yeah. Um, I would get extremely weird with how I dress.
Speaker 1:I already dress kind of weird you're currently dressed as a rainbow tiger.
Speaker 2:You you named me that I have very bright colors on right now. Um, anyways, I would dress extremely weird and like work on becoming the village weirdo, and I would try eating mushrooms, even if I don't know what they are, because at this point, have a good time and then if it's really bad, have you been to Niagara Falls, nayula?
Speaker 3:The Canadian side yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, I've been to both, dan. You've been to the American side, have you?
Speaker 1:been to the Canadian side. You know I've never actually seen the falls. I've been there in a truck delivering stuff. I just saw a big river is what I saw.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, you didn't get to see the good parts. Well, ever since I was a little kid, my one like what are those thoughts called Invasive thoughts, intrusive thought? Every time I go to Niagara Falls and, like you stand, obviously there's like a barrier between you and the river and the fall part, I'm just like looking at it and the water is rushing so fast. It looks lovely. There's a very large part of me that just wants to jump in. A very large part. I obviously have self-preservation, because I haven't. But in the apocalypse I would get in a barrel, because if everything else was over, I would just make my way to Niagara Falls and I would find a barrel or a canoe and end it that way yeah, a canoe, and like, end it that way canoe would be great yeah, so those are my three.
Speaker 2:I don't think any of them are helpful what about an inflatable mattress?
Speaker 1:you can kind of like ride it down like a magic carpet I'm pretty.
Speaker 2:That might accidentally save me because it's a floating device. Then you can go again. That's true, that's quite a ride. Um, and then here's my last serious question for you, naila, before you tell people where they can find you. You posted so you do write-in challenges, not write-in challenges. You do like weekly write-ins on your Discord and Dan and I have been participating in some others as well picture of like a red, red sunset sky with black and gray, ominous clouds, and I wanted to know if, for you, there is any beauty in the apocalypse I think there is.
Speaker 3:I think about like carnival, which is like resistance right, like typically it was had, like on days where likevers were like at church or there was some sort of holiday and like that's when like Black folks finally got to like have a carnival and like celebrate and like be with their people and like to be in such terrible situations and still like prioritize joy. I think like that is something that I think about a lot and like they shouldn't have had to do that. Um, but it does make me think that like again, I think it's like all of these, like all of these binaries are like very colonial, so like if you believe that like life is not existence, sentience is not circular, then like the apocalypse could be like a end of the world, like a heart of the world. For me it's kind of like that whole thing with life and death where like it's like the other side of like the start of something else, like it's maybe it's the end of one state and it's the start of a new state, just like how republics die after 250 years.
Speaker 3:Like some of it, as much as I'm like I don't want to live through that, some of it does kind of strike me as like an opportunity to start over. You know, like, so it depends again, it depends on how you like ascribe or how you sit within these binaries. I try to like not be so like binaristic about these things, but I think it's like the other side of that, like, maybe, maybe a zombie apocalypse is the opportunity to drop what we're doing and start over. You know, like re to go into chaos, to get to come out with some form of order. Maybe that's maybe that's what we need.
Speaker 2:I don't know, a new order. I mean, what you just said is why I love the zombie apocalypse genre and apocalyptic genres as well. It's more about the possibility. When everything breaks down, it's easy. I think it's easier to change than systems that are like calcified and complicated and have been there for a long time and people really believe in them and like, frankly, I think most of what holds up our society today is like people just believe that it'll keep going. I think the more of us that don't believe that it's viable is when things will actually change, weirdly enough. So, um, I'm with you. I also think it's a time for new beginnings and something that's very beautiful I feel strangely motivated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like an apocalypse. I feel strangely motivated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like an apocalypse is kind of like again. It's supposed to make you feel called to act. So I think, if we view it as an opportunity to start over but also to dream bigger, I think we're always trying to look back to what worked in the past instead of just dreaming bigger systems and newer systems. Not to say everything that happened in the past isn't like, is in the trash, but I do think we can think bigger than like what we've done, and maybe having fewer access to certain things and like a zombie apocalypse state would facilitate that yeah, yeah, we'll keep medical science yeah, I'm not again, I'm not savannah you know I think capitalism bringing it back to clay's, our cat babies.
Speaker 1:Um spoiler, I guess, but uh, you know, I think these are, that's more what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:We'll keep we'll keep science and we'll keep medicine.
Speaker 2:That was yeah, but those things were going on long before capitalism and colonialism and we'll keep going on like the idea that that. Whatever I'm gonna go on a rant about the myth that white people invented science, so I'm not gonna keep going.
Speaker 1:Um yeah you know I. I just you know the, the apocalypse being the, the call to action. I think that's the part of the zombie apocalypse that that's. The trope that annoys me is like we have to solve the zombie apocalypse. We have to act and stop it from happening. That's not what I want from the zombie apocalypse. I want the chance to start anew. I don't want the zombies to go away. I want to build walls to keep the zombies out and have the small community garden village where everyone's like we're going gonna make new rules and the rules are gonna make sense and we're all gonna look out after each other. And this is our found family. Now it becomes a fast and the furious movie.
Speaker 2:We're all about family suddenly please not a fast and the furious movie.
Speaker 1:It's like fast and furious without race cars oh, you think you're better than dom.
Speaker 3:Now I do. I'm putting a standing on that.
Speaker 2:I'm kidding.
Speaker 3:Anyone is, Literally anyone is. The speech is always the same speech. To be like blank happened, but we're a family Like no, we're all better than Dom. It was a joke.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you know what? He rolled a 20 on his charisma and he just has to say family.
Speaker 3:And everyone's like. I'm on board now. I have tears in my eyes, oh yeah, well, the last, the last one I saw was the the too fast, too furious. And then I was like nah, this is the same movie, like most things I consume.
Speaker 2:I know I've watched them. I have no idea which ones and I don't remember the plots, but I know they were bad. I could tell you all about them. Please don't. Well, it's been a pleasure, naila. I wish we could talk forever, but I know we have our offline chats, which I'm very grateful for. So, naila, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:They can find me on Instagram at Naila King Writes. For now I'm playing ball with the camera app overlords. You can find me also on threads. I'm trying to get a website up. What can you do? I might be on some like newer social platforms at some point, but those are the kind of main ones. And then on Ko-fi. I don't really post content there, but maybe I should. I don't know, and I think that's everywhere you can find me. Oh, I guess I was in issue eight of Night Terrors. You can find my latest short story there.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 2:And come join the Discord.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a carnival, a ghost carnival, you can come write with us on Saturday A ghost carnival. Yeah, you can join the write-in and, uh, try to compete with us yeah, well see, this is what I don't like about you.
Speaker 3:you always try to do this shell degrading like thing and then you write like 2 000 words when I've been like what is a like myth in my world? Oh well, like you are always killing it, so I don't believe you. You're you're always killing it.
Speaker 2:It was army humor, naela. It's his army humor, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've learned I'm very self-deprecating. It's it motivates me.
Speaker 3:I mean I love it. It just has to be true because you write, you be writing them words. So calling you out on your lies.
Speaker 1:To be fair, today was actually a really tough day to get any writing done, and the only thing that I could do was just write an angry manifesto, apparently that I can no longer. I can't let anybody hear it because it's.
Speaker 2:There's eligible parts, there's other parts that definitely are not safe. Nayula, what did you? Let's end it there. What did you feel good about with your write-in today?
Speaker 3:what you did um I mean I think it's always like a pleasure to host people and like to host the space, um, and I am gonna kind of maybe change it to create in because there's a couple artists and like I want to be inclusive in that way and sometimes, like sometimes your writing is like not words, like sometimes it's you like reading a book or like drawing a map or whatever. So I want to be a little bit more open to that and maybe change the name, or maybe not. Maybe we all just agree that like that hour is whatever we make it, and now you look too lazy to change the thing. But yeah, I feel I always feel good like writing with others. Again, I think it's like getting back to the start of this episode, like finding your people. Felt like I couldn't write with all these people because they were like very like flowery and like professional, and then like I write like silly little dialogue sometimes.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I think like it's just like what I've loved about it is finding my people and just like trying to build like a brave space in the hour where we can just create together and like we don't have to feel finger wag at Dan that we like are are like sprint accomplishments, where you're showing up for yourself, which right now is hard, you know, like I've definitely been, like I don't want to rock up to the desk at all, Like what's waiting there for me, but you did it and I think that's important.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter if it's one word or, in Dan's case, like literally a thousand plus words. As long as you're showing up for yourself in that way, it just whatever happens happens. That's kind of how I that's how I'm showing up to the desk these days is whatever happens happens. If actual words flow, that's great. If I'm there to stare at a screen for that hour sometimes that happens, that's great too. So I think that's the culture I want to create in the Discord in general, and also for us to have fun, because sometimes it's just like very serious, and I'm not here to be serious about like unserious things at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm with you on that. Yeah, I'm there. I'm there with that.
Speaker 2:My next art piece is a rat enjoying themselves on a little mini hot tub. That's what I'm working on, as they should. Yeah, just chilling, but it was really a pleasure to have you on the show. Everybody come hang out with us on Nail On Saturdays. The write-ins are typically late morning or early afternoon Eastern time. Naila you post all the information so folks can know on RSVP. But I've come to really look forward to it. Sometimes I just write emails back to people who have written to us about the podcast and that actually really helps make me do it, because I hate email.
Speaker 1:I'm going to try to continue it well into the summer, famously the time when I don't have time to write. So I think this will give me time to write when I'm, when I'm in the thick of it in the summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we appreciate you, naila. This is super fun. I hope to do it again soon. We can talk more about some of the other stuff that's coming up in the block oratage challenge and for now, folks, I hope that wherever you are, you are as safe as you can be and finding a little bit of joy in this wild, wild world that we're all in together. You can support us by leaving a rating or a review, send us a voicemail I love voicemails up to three minutes at 6, 1, 4, 6, 9, 9, triple 0, 6. Follow us on Instagram at zombie book club podcast or join all he eats brains, brain munchers, collective discord. That is the other discord that we hang out in. So come say hi uh to us on naela's. Wow, I'm just biffing the end. Yeah, you can double discord, double discord, discord. It.
Speaker 1:there's so many discords so many yeah for all the different things I had to delete like 50 discords when I was in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but don't just come to brain munchers and come to naela's ghost carnival that's all I use right now. Yeah, that's that's where the cool people. That's where your people are. If you're listening to this podcast, then your people are there. Yeah, go to those places. Yeah, if you want to write go there yeah. Bye, bye, everybody, bye-bye.
