Zombie Book Club
Welcome to Zombie Book Club! We're a Podcast that's also a book club! We talk about Zombie / Apocalyptic horror novels, TV and movies.
Zombie Book Club
How We End with Special Guest LM Juniper | Zombie Book Club Ep 69
Join us for an exciting deep dive into the fungal zombie apocalypse with LM Juniper, author of How We End. In this episode, we discuss the gripping survival story that redefines the zombie genre, exploring themes of resilience, community, and diverse representation. LM shares their creative insights on developing characters who bond through hardship, including a diverse cast that challenges typical post-apocalyptic tropes. Discover how everyday objects turn into survival tools, how shared experiences shape character relationships, and why the concept of fungal zombies captivates our imaginations.
With humor and heart, we explore LM's approach to storytelling and the importance of trans joy, found family, and nuanced character arcs in apocalyptic fiction. Whether you're curious about the practicality of peanuts in an apocalypse or the impact of sensitivity readers on authentic narratives, this episode has something for every zombie fiction fan. Tune in to celebrate stories that push boundaries and offer fresh perspectives on survival.
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We should jump into this because we should.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're having a way too much, you're way too lovely, and now we just want to chat with you.
Speaker 1:I want to know everything about you. All right, welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club where the book is a tube and the tube gets dark and scary. Then some scary zombie stuff happens in said tube, but don't worry, some of them make it out alive. I'm Dan, and when I'm not dealing with my own tube situation and it's not what you think I'm writing a book about a zombie outbreak in New York City and a trip in the tube would be ill-advised.
Speaker 2:And I'm Leah, and now I'm wondering what your tube situation is.
Speaker 3:Don't ask Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, we have more important things to discuss today, because we have a very special guest with us who is fighting off zombies and breaking boundaries with every chapter of how we end. The author who's bringing fresh perspectives to survival stories. It's elm pint-sized juniper in the house.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the show elm, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Very happy to be here yeah, we've, uh, we've been really waiting for this, anticipating, you could even say, if it was spelled right in our notes, it never is, um, yeah, but uh, yeah, this is. This has been a long time coming and I'm really excited about this. We, we, we barely made it through our pre-interview interview before we started recording, just because we found you so interesting already yeah, sorry folks, you don't get to hear that part everything out so, um, uh, we're gonna start this interview with a few rapid fire questions.
Speaker 2:Just go with your gut. Zombie related questions First thing that comes to mind yeah, do you choose a 40 hour work week or the zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 3:Oh, zombie apocalypse. Yes, yeah, I couldn't do 40 hours Like I do than 40 hours, but then I obviously do work at home as well, so maybe I could do.
Speaker 1:But just not for someone else. What if it's a 20 hour week?
Speaker 3:Oh well, that's pretty much what I have now. And I still don't want to do it.
Speaker 2:I agree, team zombie apocalypse. If you had to live out a week in your story's world and how we end, which weapon would you personally choose to use?
Speaker 3:oh man, which weapon? Okay, so obviously I'm, I'm in england. Then, uh, I would probably have like a, a modified cricket bat to have like spikes, and then like a cool grip and maybe something like a spiky thing at the end of the grip. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think in, I think in your book, you point out one of the advantages of a cricket bat that I never really thought about, and that's like getting in into a partially closed doorways.
Speaker 3:Oh do.
Speaker 1:I, I think so. Maybe I just read it wrong, but I was thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Well, the way you describe that so beautifully now it's like do you already have this weapon waiting and ready for the zombie apocalypse?
Speaker 3:No, but you know, obviously when I write I do a lot of what kind of weapons can they have, and then I sit and think them up, and so I don't know if I've maybe thought of it beforehand.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's a good one. Maybe it'll show up in your future book how we Survived.
Speaker 3:Maybe. Maybe I do have some new fun weapons, at least that's for sure. Sometimes I can walk around when I'm outside and I can look at things and be like would side, and I can look at things and be like, would that work? Like I think we went to, uh, I got the garden center where we live and I found this really big. It was like a it's not a spade, but and not a an axe, something in between and I said to my wife take a picture of me holding this because I wanted to use for, like the zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I know the thing that you're talking about. Does it like kind of like turn into like a hook at the end? Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a brush, ax, see that's exactly what I mean. In medieval warfare they were called bill hooks. Oh, okay, yeah, See, I don't know names, I'm just like oh, it looks like this well, I know because I've I've looked at that and thought the same thing I was gonna say.
Speaker 2:I feel like the mark of a zombie writer to look at every object does. Can I kill a zombie with this?
Speaker 1:yes, like old pipes, you see, like a pipe on the ground, you're like, yeah, you definitely use that, yeah my brother and I were at walmart the other day this week and, uh, we were in the sporting goods section. I picked up like a child's um, soccer, uh, shin guard, or you would say football, and I'm like putting it on my forearm, being like does this fit with this guard your arms? People are like looking at me like trying to put a shin guard on my forearm and I'm just like they don't understand. I gotta get out of here.
Speaker 3:It's like when I see old tires, yeah, like what can we use with that? Like what kind of protection could we make with those old tires.
Speaker 1:Oh god, this is gonna turn into a long conversation like actual survival conversation with you.
Speaker 2:I bet it's the zombie apocalypse. There is no 20-hour work week anymore and you get to eat only one unlimited shelf stable food for the rest of your life. You come across a whole warehouse of it. What would you choose?
Speaker 3:Oh stable food, oh man Peanuts.
Speaker 2:Peanuts.
Speaker 3:That's a good one. You can make so much with it. I bet you can make that. You can make peanut butter and good fats and oils and I bet you can roast them. I bet you can like. I bet you can make some sort of flour with it. Oh, if you may have like acorn flour and then put, can I have acorn flours?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can forage whatever you want and then use the shelf stable food to like oh okay, because then I can make it at least taste nice. I was thinking like a nice leafy greens dandelion salad with some peanuts. Yeah, okay, here's my silly question of the day Are?
Speaker 3:there dandelions in Sweden? Yes, there are.
Speaker 1:I think they're everywhere. I don't think there's a single square inch of this earth that doesn't have a dandelion on it.
Speaker 3:Maybe the desert, but I love them, yeah, yeah, maybe like the jungle, maybe they have like its own version, like its own, not version like species of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what the relative. Okay, this is going to be a complete sidebar, so I'm going to Google later what the relatives of dandelions are and their origins.
Speaker 3:So I'm gonna google later what the relatives of dandelions are and their origins. I feel like you need to share that answer because I don't actually know that.
Speaker 1:I will definitely follow up with you zombie apocalypse that the uh, the seeds from dandelions were what caused the infection of like when you inhale, if you inhale them accidentally when they explode, they get in your mouth.
Speaker 2:You know that would be like the revenge of the dandelion, because everybody calls them a weed. They're mean to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They get rid of them all the time they're trying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of like that I started growing yellow hair and then it turns white and blows off of your head.
Speaker 2:And that's how you infect others. I'd watch that movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Dan do you want to do the next two rapid fire questions? You have to choose, you have to choose. You have a choice to make pop quiz hot shot. You have a choice between saving a dog or a cat from a zombie horde. Which do you choose?
Speaker 3:seriously, that's just mean save a dog or cat, Okay, well, oh man Depends on what kind of dog it is. What kind of dog is it One?
Speaker 1:with really big teary eyes. What?
Speaker 3:breed is it.
Speaker 2:It's a mutt. It's a mutt, but it has a perma puppy face and like a big lolling tongue sticking out if it helps.
Speaker 1:The cat doesn't care if you live or die. It is a cute cat though.
Speaker 2:Look it's beautiful I know that was cruel, but when you said you loved animals and you cry at animal rescue videos, I was like I have to.
Speaker 3:That's so mean. Yeah, I find that one difficult. I'd probably pick the dog, because cats are probably more difficult to bring with you, in the sense, like if something happens and you have to skedaddle, you're not all. Like if the cat's gone, they're going to be like, well, I don't care. Like if you're trying to be, like, well, I don't care. Like if, if you're trying to call them in, whereas the dog would be like, yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think a cat's more likely to get out of a zombie horde situation because they can climb. They can jump really high. Dog might need more help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I see it that way too, that's, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, our last rapid fire question for you. I'm really excited about this one.
Speaker 3:Oh no.
Speaker 2:What's scarier to you Zombies or yogurt slugs and please explain for the audience.
Speaker 3:Oh God, yogurt slugs every day of the week. It's a weird one.
Speaker 3:I've never seen a yogurt slug before it's like I mean, they don't really exist. I hope not, but when I was a kid, I had this irrational fear that I would find slugs in my yogurt and so I would eat it really. So I was like a really slow eater and my mom asked me like what? What's taking so long? And so I was chewing my yogurt in case it was snails, which now then, when I'm thinking about, when I think about it, it's like that's worse, because then you'd feel it yeah, you should have slipped, it down.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's, that's uh, that is.
Speaker 1:That is a fear that comes from somewhere.
Speaker 2:And if you don't know that joke folks who are listening, you need to read the book. Yeah, there's some yogurt slugs. If you know, you know Exactly.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about this book that you've written with your brain.
Speaker 3:Or my fingers. The fingers are sometimes fingers Also.
Speaker 1:The fingers are sometimes involved, yes, though I have discovered a way to take them entirely out of the equation, but I won't get into that, I can't do that.
Speaker 3:If you're talking about the voice type thing, I can't do that Because the voice situation recording thing doesn't understand my English.
Speaker 2:That's discrimination. It's an American-centric thing, right yeah it is.
Speaker 3:If I say something, well, obviously in this dialect accent, most of the time it will miss about 50% when I talk. Could also be, because, like, my accent is a bit weird because it's not fully British. Um, it's got that little extra foreigner twang to it well, I think that that's.
Speaker 2:It just proves that humans are still better than AI or computers. Because, like there's no issue understanding you as a Canadian American person and when I moved to the South from Canada, I couldn't understand half of the people I was like this is we are speaking two different versions of English, so we're better than computers. That's yes.
Speaker 3:For sure, For sure, yeah, but I can't tell the difference like between and this is probably a little bit insulting and I apologize, I can't. As a foreigner and an ESL person, I can't tell the difference between American and Canadian. Sometimes I can on certain words, but 99% of the time I can't.
Speaker 2:Well that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's not it's pretty close, it's not a super huge difference when I moved here, everybody thought I was in wisconsin, so um which is a state in the united states.
Speaker 2:So yeah, uh, there you go.
Speaker 1:Americans also think we all sound like them, so um, in your bio you talk about how you love fantasy, sci-fi and post-apocalypse books. When did you fall in love with the post-apocalypse genre in particular?
Speaker 3:Well, it was definitely when I found Until the End of the World Is that what it's called? Yeah, by Sarah Leon's Fleming. I'm so good that I remember these things. It was definitely when I found that book and it's a really funny story. So I listen to asmr when I have to sleep, but I started by listening to audiobooks to help me sleep, and so one of her books were free and I downloaded it because it was free what a way to find it yeah, and then I was like falling asleep to it because the narrator is so good, it's like she's amazing, she's one of my favorite narrators.
Speaker 3:And then for me, I get used to a voice after a while. So after a while it takes me longer and longer and longer to kind of fall asleep to, and so after a while I was like, wait, this story is actually pretty good. And then I started listening to it and that's how I got hooked on it. But honestly, I'm a much bigger consumer of games and movies than I am of books. So I've always loved zombie movies and games. I think the first thing I I had so many when I was young was Resident Evil, dawn of the Dead yes, games. I think like the first thing I I was so many when I was young, was it like resident evil? Uh, dawn of the dead? Yeah, one of my favorite ones. And then I really fell in love with the walking dead telltale game. I was never super fond of the tv showiked the first season, but absolutely loved the games. So good yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to play those games with Leah.
Speaker 3:Have you played them?
Speaker 1:I have, oh, okay, so I won't spoil anything for Leah.
Speaker 3:No, but yes, it is an emotional roller coaster. Yes, I downloaded it. So the first one I downloaded on my mobile. Uh, we were visiting my wife's parents and I downloaded it, like in the evening, and I swear I spent the entire. I stayed up all night until the morning to play the first episode. Wow, absolutely fell in love with it. And then so my wife is also a gamer and I roped her into it, and so we're playing on my phone in bed and then sometimes it's scary.
Speaker 2:And both of us are like ah screamer. That's such a sweet way to spend time with your spouse, you know what, and if it can be played on the phone, maybe I can give this a try.
Speaker 1:You know, I tried to play the phone version and, like you can, but it is, the controls are very frustrating.
Speaker 3:I think if you're not used to it, though it's easier.
Speaker 2:Sorry, yes, no you're good, you're supposed to be the one speaking, not me, but because I'm not the gamer I'm like I'm going to segue it away from games, otherwise these two are going to talk about games the entire hour. We will.
Speaker 1:So this is the game hour.
Speaker 2:No, I want to talk about how we end. I was going to ask you specifically, um, what was the moment that sparked the how we end book and then eventually, what's becoming a series?
Speaker 3:it seems like are you gonna have to pause a little bit here because my wife is going into the fridge? She's, she's not going into the fridge, she's opening the fridge. They're saying, hi, she's playing the new dragon age game. So she's got headphones in and can't really hear us. Sounds like she's having a good night. She's just standing in the kitchen looking awkward. What's her name? Jess? She's like I'm being quiet.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to take more time.
Speaker 3:Oh, now she can hear me, because now she's glaring at me.
Speaker 2:Can we keep this part in for the episode? It's kind of adorable. Yeah, I love it. Okay, good, so what was the moment that sparked for you wanting to write your own zombie apocalypse book?
Speaker 3:It was after having read Sarah Leon's Flemings, because I really loved her books and I'd only read the first trilogy by this time. Um and I love her books like there's no discussion about that but I've always felt like there aren't books that I can see myself in, so these books are more often you know than not. Um has a white main protagonist and a very cis, heteronormative, uh group of characters.
Speaker 3:now I know like sarah's book does have, like in her first series, uh, one gay character, but for me that was also a bit like it wasn't enough. I wanted I, I wanted us to be kind of the main protagonist and not just in the background, and so I think that's because I was also like I love the zombie stuff, like games and movies and tv shows and and I've always loved writing and I wanted to write my own thing, and so that's how I really yeah, that's how I I knew I wanted to write a zombie apocalypse and I knew what kind of zombie apocalypse I wanted to write. But the idea didn't come to me until I was at work, and I was. I was, so I drive the tube and I was turning my train around, I was swapping cabins, was swapping cabins.
Speaker 3:So obviously what happens when you get to a end station is that you uh go from the other end to the, to the, to the new one, I guess, um to drive back the way you came. And so while I was doing, I was thinking, um, what if, like, I drove down here, because we drive a lot above ground, and I was like, what if I drove into this, this tunnel and this underground station and everything was perfectly normal. I got stuck here for a few hours. I come up and the world has ended, and that was literally how I started. That's how the idea just sparked in my head and I was like ooh, that's a cool idea.
Speaker 1:Like ooh that's a cool idea. It's always amazing how these moments, these sparks of inspiration, start because they seem to come out of nowhere sometimes, but also make so much sense.
Speaker 2:It's tied directly to your real life situation, but a completely believable scenario from an also unbelievable scenario, yeah, and for anybody who's ever been in, um, a tube slash subway for americans, canadians uh, when I was reading that part, the the stress I felt just having to walk in the dark alone, um, in the tunnels, was enough for me to be like, like literally saying it. The hackles on the back of my neck or standing up is just such a scary and awesome way to start a zombie book. For the listeners who are with us today, who have not yet read how we end, could you give us a little synopsis of what it's about? I think you did a good intro of the setting.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm terrible at this.
Speaker 1:This is like the hardest thing to ask an author to do is a paragraph.
Speaker 3:So what is the book about? Uh, it's basically about this one guy who gets stuck in the underground, um, and he thinks it's just like a regular stop, but it yeah turns out it's the end of the world and it's a zombie apocalypse. And then, obviously, he meets a bunch of people that he has to get out with and trying to escape London with.
Speaker 2:And they might not all love each other.
Speaker 3:Was that good enough? I'm terrible. This is like I'm so terrible at so terrible when people ask me what is your book about?
Speaker 1:on my head there's only apocalypse I also have this, uh, this problem, because people always ask me, like, what I am writing. Because I say I'm writing things all the time and, uh, and and I'm just like I don't know what it's about. I don't know, I don't know what happens, stuff, how does that happen? I think you did a good job without giving it all away. I don't know what happens. How do I recap this?
Speaker 3:In just a few sentences.
Speaker 2:I think you did a good job without giving it all away. The other thing I would note is I think is interesting and we'll get into it later is that you have two points of view. You have Liv's point of view as a main character, and then you have Jake's point of view, and at some point they meet and found family is like one of the major themes of your story, I think. So that's. The other piece that I really enjoy is you have two varying perspectives, showing you what this world looks like and how they're navigating it from their own life experience it the first time is that when it's jake's perspective, it's first person, but when it's um, when it's live's perspective, it's third person.
Speaker 1:Was there a significance behind that?
Speaker 3:uh, yes, I don't know why, but I've always loved the switch from first person present tense to third person past tense. I think there's. I know some people find it jarring, but just like. And they always say, write the book you love. And I just I found, like, from a previous experience of writing I started in fanfic fandom and I found that whenever I write, what I really love and what really makes me excited, that's when I, when readers, can relate the best to my writing.
Speaker 3:And I think that the way of writing, that kind of way of writing I don't know how to phrase that, it just I don't know it just I think the contrast really brings such a fresh dynamic and perspective perspective and you can, you can do the same scene and discover so many different things. Now, I don't tend to do that because you know it's it's still repetitive for for the uh, for the reader, but you can have like the same um. So there's the bit where where they um try to find boats, for example, and so you have one part of it is from live's perspective right before they find the boat, and then the next perspective, when they find the boat, is from jake's, and so you still get that big sort of happening from two different point of views and personally I just think that's really interesting to to see it from.
Speaker 1:It's like watching, uh, like a movie or or a you know a game, from a different lens, from a different like angle, and seeing like different things yeah, one thing that I took away from it and I don't know if this was intentional or not, but when it's Liv's perspective it kind of makes you feel like it's a little bit more detached from reality. She's kind of watching herself go through these things, whereas Jake seems much more in the moment and present. But that might just maybe.
Speaker 3:I think also that's the thing about a third person perspective. It does kind of uh, remove the reader a little bit from from the character, because there is that she did this, she ran, she hid, she thought this, whereas with jake it's like I, and so you read I, and so you're very close to that and you can close the distance with that third person perspective. But I didn't do a great job on that.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I think you did. I thought it was a really interesting way to do it.
Speaker 3:I do. I'm very happy with how it came out and I'm, you know, very proud of it. And I do, you know, as an author, as a creative, we're never really. I love it. As a creative, you know, you're never really. Oh my God, Now my dog is like. She ran into the loo to sneeze and our dog was like slamming the door with his paw. He was like you're not allowed to be there on your own.
Speaker 2:We have dogs that do the exact same thing. Yes, oh god. Ideal place to be pet is on the toilet apologies, I'm waiting she's.
Speaker 1:That's what makes this podcast exciting is all the pet drama.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's like so big His like his paw is like bigger than my fist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen pictures of him. He looks incredible. Yeah, he's so cute, but he's yeah, obviously ginormous because he's a French Mastiff. I think the thing that made me laugh the most was the picture of you trying to figure out how you could pick like save a dog, because there's karma in your book, like how will I do this with 140 pound dog? Is that correct?
Speaker 3:yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, sorry yeah oh, I was just gonna say um, just oh. Wow, my brain is so broken today.
Speaker 1:I have to apologize.
Speaker 2:Like zombie ween, I think might have destroyed me for a short period of time.
Speaker 3:So you're getting me after that, that's all right. I mean, I have a coughing wife and a door-slamming dog, so I think we're even.
Speaker 2:But what I was going to say was if you could just tell us a little bit more about, like, who Jake is as a character and who Liv is, and why you chose to write them as your two main characters right.
Speaker 3:So Jake is the main main character. I always knew I wanted a character that I could see myself in, not necessarily based on me. A lot of people think he's based on me, which he's not. I was really inspired, so I started this book in 2017. So it's gone through a lot of different stages and iterations and so at first, I was like, oh, I'll write him as a and this is like completely inappropriate, which is like I've done a lot of learning since 2017. I was like, oh, I'll write him as an indigenous person. And then, you know, after a year, I was like, no, I will not be doing that because you know that's not appropriate for me to do and it's, you know, not really my me to do and it's, you know, not really my story, uh, to tell. And so, and at the same time, when that happened, uh, I I realized that, um, I didn't realize, but I saw in in the news that if someone hasn't watched the walking dead, there's going to be spoiler. Now, it's all good.
Speaker 3:Okay, it's been like 14 years I I know, but I'm just like some people will come at me and be like Elm spoiled the Walking Dead for me.
Speaker 2:Well, if that's the case, we've spoiled so much on this podcast, so you're in good company.
Speaker 3:So Glenn was killed off. What it was, was he? And this was at the same time as, I think, crazy Rich Asians came out, just shortly after that, or like a year or two after. But at this time, this was the first time that I think a Korean main actor had been featured on Entertainment Now's cover, and I remember his actor being like well, it is what it is. And I was like fuck that, fuck that man that's. You know what that's. It's not how it's supposed to be. Like, we're not just supposed to be like well, yeah, okay, that's, you know, that's how it is for us and we just have to deal with it. I know that that's how it is. But like, yeah, I got really upset about that, um, and I was like that's not fair and if I can choose, then I'm gonna write a character that not only is like me but also, you know, looks like me. Yeah, um, and so I decided that he was gonna be asian. Um, and sorry, I'm getting distracted, it's okay it's okay, I uh, I I definitely feel.
Speaker 1:I feel that, um, especially when you're talking about how you know it felt wrong to write from somebody else's perspective, like that's something that I have to. I have to struggle with myself because I want to include people in my stories, but I don't want to tell their story for them, you know um so it's.
Speaker 3:I'm glad to hear that it's not just me struggling with those types of uh, those types of issues no, and I think I think there's a fine line of including people, uh, and then, like, telling their story. I think you can include people without telling stories that aren't yours to tell, um, and that's what I try to do with with both a little bit, both Jake, because Jake is Korean and I'm not Korean, um, but he's trans and I'm trans and as we live, she's South Asian, I'm not South Asian, but it's kind of like, you know, I'm trying to the stories I'm telling them that I can feel like I can tell, or maybe from other aspects that aren't like their, you know, ethnicity or cultural heritage, but then also, liv has, you know, mental health struggles and addiction, and I, yeah, and I jake also has his own struggles. So it's, it's. I think what I wanted to do is also have really flawed characters that can still be very relatable, because I think there's a lot of um, especially in this genre.
Speaker 3:This genre can be quite, you know, particular at times and it can be difficult to find characters that you can. A lot of times we get the characters that are just like oh well, I can 100 handle this. Um, yeah, and I've got everything you know under control and my entire life is under control, and I kind of want a little bit more messy characters that people can kind of still relate to and also look up to and be like, hey, that's pretty cool. Like if he did that, then I can do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if that answers the question. I might've just like rambled on. That is the right answer. It's always the right answer Alan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think people's drawbacks definitely make them more interesting and relatable characters in the long run. Way back you know, playing tabletop RPGs with my friends, a lot of my friends would try to make the perfect character, the most powerful one. They're like giving them traits and attributes that like stack up so they can do massive damage. I always made these incredibly weak characters but had really interesting flaws.
Speaker 2:Well, it's relatable. There's nothing worse than reading something or watching something and just being like I don't even believe this is a real person and all of us have struggled or watched people struggle through things. I'll say the addiction issues that Liv experiences. I have people in my family with very, very similar stories, and so that's real and that would be a real issue in the apocalypse. So I think that there's a movement in the genre towards that. Maybe it's because we're actively seeking it out now too. I don't know. Like it's kind of hard to know there. When we started the podcast, as I told you before we started recording, we made an intentional choice to be looking for not the white male superhero fantasy version, Brad Pitt in World.
Speaker 3:War Z yeah.
Speaker 2:We did talk about World War Z we did talk about which I mostly complained about, okay, but I think it's just more interesting and I think it's a good evolution of the genre, and I'm hopeful that stories like what you're telling become the norm, not just in books, but also in movies and television shows. And I agree with you who wasn't upset when Glenn was murdered? Come on, I think everybody was. The whole world was upset yeah.
Speaker 1:People stopped watching because of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a white person I had never thought about the representation aspect of it and like what that must feel like for other Asian folks who are seeing that happen and knowing that. The hell like how rare that representation is. So thanks for sharing that because, I'll be honest, that was a not a thing I thought of before.
Speaker 3:Specifically with that story, I was just pissed off at this awesome character had been killed early in my opinion, yeah, and he was also like, especially at that time, in my opinion, yeah, and he was also like, especially at that time and especially for me. He lives in sweden, where there is exceedingly little, uh, representation for asian people. He was the only thing on tv that was like vaguely wow, like myself or from my part of the world, um, so that was also like. That was another thing I wanted to do, like, because usually when, when we're in something, we either die or we're super smart, we're like nerds who can hack into anything, or we're doctors, and so I wanted to, you know, be like, you know what he's gonna be a shoe driver, because that's something I know yeah, and, and Glenn was a pizza delivery driver, like he wasn't anybody special and that's kind of cool, like he found himself in the apocalypse.
Speaker 2:That's what makes them special. We don't need to be heroes in the traditional sense to be interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and that's what I really liked about both like Glenn, but also what I really wanted to have jake be like just like a nobody, or like no one's special, like he's not even like he. He wants to be a prepper, but he's not even a good one.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's better than us. I was like reading about he's got quite a stash folks again. If you haven't read it yet, I I was like Dan and I have got maybe three days of food and one generator that will last for eight hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's more than what I have. It's like Sarah, who's both my mentor and one of my favorite authors. She's got like she's set because she's got like, yeah, she likes to do the whole prepping stuff and she's very good about it, but'm like, uh, I have dried spaghetti that's something we also have a lot of spaghetti yeah, I accidentally have been buying stuff ever since the pandemic.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that looked like, um in your world that we started buying all of our groceries and picking them up instead of going into the store. But what happens is I just bought, like I don't know, a lifetime supply of spaghetti accidentally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just meant to buy one box. It was like one box. It looks like you just combined four boxes together.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I've been eating that for a while. It's so good though I do that with rice, but obviously I eat it as well. So we buy these ginormous bags from the little asian supermarket near where we live. Um, yeah, and, but unfortunately I never buy two, so I'll always have like an extra one that's important yeah I really should start doing that. We were really good for a while. We'd always buy like, so we had to start. But there's also we. We live like in a flat, so it's like, where do we, where do we start?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a bit difficult. Um, yeah, you know, speaking of, uh, of like diverse characters like you're, you've created a uh diverse cast of characters that like eventually kind of become a found family. Um, you know people that have never, that would have never met, um, if it weren't for the circumstances that they met under, but they quickly formed close bonds, even an unlikely character, noah, who is, for most of the book, a huge asshole. Um, yes, how did how did these characters form, like how did they come to you while you were writing and how did you make their relationships feel significant and genuine?
Speaker 3:oh, that's a very good question. Uh, I always knew jake was going to be jake. Farina had like a billion different like things going on. She had like eight different names. I think it was like jemma emma, was it jemma? And emma jenna, yeah. And then it was isla and she was like for a minute she was like working with jake in the tube. So the way they met was initially that he pulled into the station and the train got stuck at the station and she was working with like so in London underground, um, at some stations they have people. They have people who help you kind of make sure that that no one gets gets stuck in the doors and stuff, um, and so she was one of those people, um, but then she kind of yeah, and then, I don't know, I've had so many different sort of beginnings of this book because I was working on it for so long.
Speaker 1:It was 2017 to finish writing it in 2021 I mean it pays to spend that extra time because, like, like you say, everything, so many things change just with that one character yeah, that's kind of amazing to hear the behind-the-scenes part of that.
Speaker 3:Oh, liv was actually. What's her face in the beginning? Jules, she was Jules. Yeah, liv was supposed to be Jules. So, like she was like a hipster, like I'm going to demonstrations and I'm so good, and I was like gosh, she's such a Mary Sue, I need to kill her. I was like I need something completely different. I was like how about we make her an addict and a former convict? That's good? I do think. Honestly, it's a difficult question because I never know. Oh, angela and Roy was like Derek and Sheila to begin with. They were always American, but they used to be white. And then I was like this story is really like, as I said again, starting in 2017, I had to do a lot of learning and deal with my own internalized you know racism, so is that what it's called?
Speaker 3:I think yeah yeah um, and really just learn a lot. And along the way I was like you know what? I was also a bit, you know. People tell you like, oh, if you write this, you're not going to sell books, and and I knew what the genre was like, especially back then. Yeah, and I was like how am I gonna? How am I gonna sell this to people? Like here's a trans brown person. And then the entire cast is gonna be just like queer, normative and mostly not white. So for a long time they were the majority of them was white, liv was also white. And then I was like you know what, why don't you just write the world that you live in like what does my world look like? And so I think the characters came from that. Before then they kind of were difficult to nail down for me. I couldn't really feel them. But after I made that change, I feel like they all started coming much more naturally to me and easier to write.
Speaker 2:I think that's really great advice, because we have a lot of authors listening as well. You both wrote what you knew in the world you lived in, but that included people who were different from you.
Speaker 1:I think that that's interesting, an interesting balance. Something that I also liked was that you don't really name these things. You don't say what race Farina is, for example, but you'll make a reference to her eye color or the shade of her skin or something, or what language she's singing a song in at some point, and that's enough to piece it together if you're paying attention. But it doesn't become her identity to the reader.
Speaker 3:It's revealed over time if you're paying attention, but if you're, then it's you know it's uh, it's not important, because what's important is farina's character yeah, I've actually got criticism for uh, from some people that like, well, why does it matter? Like, if you don't like, you should state what they look like and what they are, and like on the first pages, why are you still doing it? Why is that? Why is the author still doing it like halfway through? And for me, it's like when we get to know people, you know, I don't go up and go hi, I'm elm, I'm trans and I have all of this.
Speaker 3:You know history. It's like little pieces we like give to people once we start getting to know them, and I feel like my favorite way of discovering characters in books that I enjoy is that same way, like where you kind of get piece by piece and I don't need to know, you know, if I get to find out the hair color, I don't know halfway through. That's probably a reason for that and and it doesn't really upset me, but, um, so it was nice that you, that you did like it. It because I know a few people are like, oh no, I don't like that at all.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, they sound like stupid assholes.
Speaker 2:We can say that Al.
Speaker 3:You don't have to. I think one of the things you have to really also understand, especially as an author, is that you're never going to be able to satisfy 100% of your readers. That was like. My main goal when I started writing was, like everybody should, I want the majority of people to like me. And then when I finished, I was like you know what? I want these kind of people. I want people who are either queer liberals, open-minded, probably like 30 plus minimum Sounds a lot like me so far.
Speaker 3:And so I think, once you get used to the thought, that you know, the fact is that most people are going to dislike your book, and that's okay, because the ones who actually like it are the ones that can't, and there's going to be plenty of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you don't want somebody to get halfway through your book and then realize that they hate everything about you. You know yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's important. It was something I was thinking about too with Jake's coming out, because it reminded me and the way that you talk about your characters and you reveal bits of them over time. It reminded me and the way that you talk about your characters and you reveal bits of them over time. It reminded me of when I used to teach anthropology and at the time I was married to a woman and this was in the south of the united states, in georgia, and so at the time actually was it was so bad there that for a while I had to pretend that I was single because, I was worried I would lose my job and then the chair of the department of the place I worked for changed so I was like, sweet, I can be out now.
Speaker 2:He was actually a Canadian man, I know.
Speaker 2:I was like yes, Some people don't believe me that this is possible, but I'm like I know that there's like extreme homophobia and certainly transphobia at that point was something that was like absolutely terrifying to your average Republican right Anybody who's like you or I and so what I would do is I would strategically wait until halfway through the semester to name that I had a wife and I would just casually bring it up because I figured at that point people either liked me or didn't, and then they'd have to grapple with that part of my identity I love that that's.
Speaker 3:That's just like the way to do it, to be honest, yeah thank you and I think I think what's so not nice, but what's so well, I guess what's nice about that is that, like you say, like once they find out if they, you know, whatever their reaction is says more about them than anything else.
Speaker 3:And and I think you know that and I think that's one of the things I wanted, I intentionally wanted in in the book is that I didn't want j Jake to like come out like in the beginning and be like, like I said, I don't go around thinking about how trans I am 24, 7, not even when it was really difficult, I didn't think that, oh, I'm trans, I'm trans, I'm trans, and so it didn't make sense for my character to even in, for his internal dialogues to be like, oh, because I'm trans.
Speaker 3:But I also wanted to force the people who didn't pick up on any of the clues to be faced with the oh shit, this is a person that I find that I like, and now he's telling me something about himself. How am I going to react to this? And I intentionally wanted to force people to have that experience of. This is a person I like, and now I find out that he's trans, and I don't usually like trans people or lgbtq people and you only know him by his, by his one, you know his, his jake identity.
Speaker 3:You have nothing else to point to to be like no, that was actually you and yeah, and I mean, there are so many clues in the book, though, like, if you know the clues, you, you quite quickly can pick up on it. And I think, like the final piece of the puzzle is when, when live is in the house I don't know if you've gotten that far, uh, the, but live is in the house and she watches a photo and it's it literally says like a tim and an older girl, wow, yeah, so it's.
Speaker 3:And. And she's just watching it and says like oh, yeah, okay, um, so yeah, there's. There's a lot of clues in there, and I'm happy when I find out that people who didn't at all pick up on the clues was like I love Jake, I loved him before and I loved him, I love him after that. That just makes my day.
Speaker 2:I'm really glad you got that response because I remember seeing your one star review of somebody who was not happy with the fact that they discovered that Jake was trans. I mean I kind of laughed. I hope that that's OK, because I was just like this person is ridiculous.
Speaker 3:I mean it is and I love the one story view because every time you get a one-star review and you post them, people are like I'm buying this book because of this one story it's like and I've been waiting. I published this book 2022 and I I was expecting a lot of them because you know, uh and so it was yeah, and then someone said like, once I posted that one, they were like hey, I can post a lot of one stars if you.
Speaker 1:I was like no, let's not, let's not. I'm gonna get my one star review in too.
Speaker 2:Everybody needs a one star review, it's just nice to hear that there were people whose minds were opened. You know that didn't even know that that's what was going to happen for them. That was probably the most gratifying part of my time. Teaching was watching somebody's brain have to process it. And then I had one student. I feel like you'll appreciate this. I had one student who grew up in the Baptist church and by the end of the semester he came to me and he said because of you, I can't think that gay people are going to hell anymore. And uh, yeah, like I just that's a very cool benefit of the book. But I also want to bring back like the some things I've seen you discuss on instagram around, like having trans joy and having a positive coming out experience for jake, and I want to know, like, what's that like for you to write that kind of story for the community that needs it?
Speaker 3:I think at first I was very worried because, I mean, obviously, as in any community, you know, we're not monolith and it's so many different identities and ideas of what we want to see and not see, identities and ideas of what we want to see and not see. And I was trying to find a happy middle ground because a lot of trans people are like, well, we don't want to read that kind of stuff because we're more than that and we just want simple trans joy. And that's completely understandable because you know, there are a lot of people who have really not great stories or really horrible stories coming out.
Speaker 3:And if you just want to read a book about a trans person and not have to think about that. But I didn't feel authentic to myself because, um, I do know that it's not always super great, um, and I didn't want to shy away from having that discussion either. So I I did want to come out and see him Because I also, like I said, I intentionally wanted to expose people to finding out a character they hopefully like was trans. But I also wanted it because for those people who haven't had a great experience and for him to just like have a really supportive found family who are just like you know what, that doesn't matter at all and it was.
Speaker 3:It was tricky writing it because obviously I know what gender is and I know you know, uh, how to you know that being transgender is not about your biological parts, it's about you know your identity as a whole.
Speaker 3:But there's this bit where Roy goes like well, you know, ain't nobody's business what's in your pants or who you used to be, and obviously I know that. But I was also trying to write it authentically for people who haven't really had experience with trans people and so I was like a little bit worried that that might come off as like something sensitive or offensive, but I'm really happy that no one has thought that, because I think they understood that from his perspective that was like being supportive and that was like you know what he knows about gender. But roy, that is um. And then I also had I felt it was important also to for jake to have that internal monologue where he thinks back about like having to come to terms with losing a part of his identity. That is very, you know, uh, has been there for most of his life. So I came out as trans when I was 37. And so for the majority of my life I lived as a brown, proud lesbian and I was like down with the patriarchy. And now you love the patriarchy?
Speaker 3:yeah, absolutely no, actually still, but you know it was a it was a weird feeling of like am I going to be on that side now? Like what, yeah, um, and I really wanted him to have that because, also, as a trans person come out in late in life, that's like it's such a huge thing to have such a big part of your identity and that's it. It's okay to mourn it. Because I felt like, oh, am I really trans? If I feel like this, if I feel like I'm mourning that side, does that mean I'm not trans enough? Or you know, I said I really wanted him to have that as well and I really wanted him to have people who supported him, and and that's why it's like that extra layer of trans joy when the reader also is like, yes, I love you, I support you, it's just like very meta yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I really liked that they, that all of the found family, were so supportive of Jake, because it definitely could have gone the other way and it would have been a completely different story. But even Noah, despite kind of just being a shithead for most of the book, suddenly came into his own and was like oh yeah, jake's a person. Yeah, I mean, I guess that is a big step for.
Speaker 2:Noah, oh yeah, Jake's a person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess that is a big step for Noah to realize that Jake's a person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like Noah. He's very rough around the edges. He's like the grouch of the group.
Speaker 1:But, I think, that it tells its own story too, group. But you know, I think that like it tells its own story too, like the, not just the development of a single character but the group as a whole, as a character, is developing and that makes it really compelling, makes you like the group so much more, that there are there are these moments of growth and like noah really shows how much growth there is because, you know, whatever baseline was there at the beginning, noah represents that at the end, like how far they've come I think, like in terms of growth, I think he and and live are the one that has the most growth.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously the other ones also have that, but I think, like those are the ones you really see it on that you really notice I'm gonna hard shift this to zombies, and what I was gonna ask in the beginning I didn't get a chance to, which is why fungal zombies?
Speaker 3:um, because I love last of us, they have fungal zombies. I thought it was such a cool idea, um, and I just, I just yeah, that's that's the reason and I wanted to put my own spin on it as well. And I like the idea of a parasite, and not just like um, not just like, oh well, they got bit because, um, like in resident evil, it's I think it's like a, it's like a serum or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and I just yeah, I just I like the idea of a fungal because, also because of how fungi work.
Speaker 3:I also watched like I'm a I'm a star trek fan and I love discovery and they were doing the first season a lot about the mycelium network, and I was like, you know what? That's a really cool idea to like, because if it's like that, it's gonna be pretty impossible to stop it because, like it's, it's everywhere, it's literally everywhere. Yeah, how do you stop something like that and how creepy can I make it? I also was really inspired by annihilation with natalie portman, the movie I don't think I saw that I was gonna say I think you just gave us our movie to watch tonight.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's weird.
Speaker 3:No, it's not zombies. It's weird, it's really weird. I don't even know if I like the movie.
Speaker 2:I just like the concept.
Speaker 3:Me and Jess watched it and we were like I don't know what we just watched. But then when we started discussing it, it was really interesting because we had all these like ideas of what that could have been. And one of my friends said I think it's like an alien and it's like the alien doesn't understand. It's like trying to mimic people but it doesn't understand how to do it and so it does it like. So. It's like this bear, for example, who has when it opens its mouth. It's like this woman, like crying for help.
Speaker 2:That's horrifying yeah.
Speaker 3:And that was such an interesting moment for me because I was like, yes, what if this, like fungal virus, tries to like mimic and yeah, just like mimic humans and and trying to take over? So it's like it's like a mixture of a lot of different things, but definitely inspired by Lost of Us, because I love those games. They're fantastic.
Speaker 1:I mean, fungi are just. We are now learning that fungi are intelligent, so it seems like the most probable way that a zombie apocalypse could happen.
Speaker 2:And if there was going to be one, I'm okay with succumbing to the fungi. I love mycelium. Make me a mushroom. I mean, we're basically most I think we're a lot of us is mushroom already. Yeah, definitely yeah and hot tip if you're not following Elm Juniper on Instagram, if you want a great combination of cool mushroom videos and things about their books a great combination of cool mushroom videos and things about their books I love. I'm like look at all these mushroom stories. You're feeding that part of my special interest too, so thank you.
Speaker 3:I love that. It's like they're either so creepy or like so beautiful. There's like no in between, and I just love that. I think fungi are so cool.
Speaker 1:What's? What's your favorite fungi?
Speaker 3:there's so many. I like the one that looks like and obviously because I like it, I had to put it in my book, but it's so. I think it's called like octopus sting corn. I just wrote we've seen it. It looks like an alien thing with tentacles, got black slime, got like this white webbing, that. When it's an egg, it's got like this white webbing that coats it. But I also really like uh, the uh. Which one was it we posted the other day? They're like I like the tiny, tiny ones Like you need like a microscopic sort of thing just to see they're either cute or they're super gross. And I like the really gross ones because they're like is it like eyeballs or is it um?
Speaker 1:fun. You probably like a lot of the like the jelly mushrooms probably.
Speaker 3:Oh, and there's like oh, I like the lion's mane one, but only because it's pretty yeah, if you were closer, we would.
Speaker 2:We would ship you some, since dan grows them, yeah, um, but I feel like it would arrive at your place pretty gross yeah apparently you can find them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, because I like gross stuff, yeah, but apparently you can find them in the uk in some places. It's not native to you, but you can't eat them, you can't cut them down, you can only take pictures of them oh, they're protecting them.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah I appreciate.
Speaker 3:I found that out when I was doing like, because I think you and I was talking about the lion's mane or something like that. Yeah, I need to see if we have it or if they have it in the uk and if I can use that. I mean, technically I guess I can use it because it's a zombie apocalypse, so so that's true. I mean, you got to eat, you got to eat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the zombie apocalypse. And it's delicious and you can just buy like a bag and grow it in your house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, we can't do that. So wow, really.
Speaker 1:We don't even let you buy it.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think they actually have it yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you can't buy stores and like in a bag.
Speaker 3:They, yes they, like you can't buy spores in a bag. Yes, they let you grow like these regular, like oyster mushrooms and those kind of things. But I don't think I've seen, no, I don't think I've seen lion's mane, and if they were available I bet they'd be like a shit ton of money okay, you gotta come to Vermont just for this.
Speaker 2:I already want to go to Vermont just for this.
Speaker 3:I only want to go to Vermont because of Sarah's books, because I'm like, oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 1:You know what's funny Not to divert too far from what we're supposed to be talking about but when I was reading Sarah Fleming's books in the moments that they were going through Vermont, I'm like I think I've been to the places that she's describing, like I think these are real world places and I think I've been there yeah, no, she's really good she does, uh, she does google travel.
Speaker 3:So she like go on the street, like street views and like check that out.
Speaker 3:If she hasn't been to it, she'll always do really good, like I think she even did like the whole alaska journey on her google maps wow yeah and like, because she used to live in in um, new york, so all the places there are like real places and like her hardcore fans, uh, will look at maps, and they will. When they're in new york, they will be like this is the sarah fleming's tour, and they will. When they're in New York, they will be like this is the Sarah Fleming store, and they will go to all the places that she's listed.
Speaker 2:Wow, do you have maps of your stories?
Speaker 3:I do. I have maps because I am like when Dan said, oh, you wrote this in your book, and I was like did I? Well, now I'm not so sure. No, but my memory is terrible. So I have maps, so I know what I'm doing, Because otherwise I'm like do they go here, Do they not go here? I like I have Google Maps all pinned out where they are right now and where they're going.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool, you know. Since you're touching on that, I kind of want to talk about the creative process, and you've mentioned a couple times it took you a while to write this book. What are the big roadblocks of that process?
Speaker 3:My attention span. I have so many things that I could do instead of writing. And it's weird when I'm at work, because I drive the tube, I uh, I can't really write like with my hands or um, so I have to write in my head a lot. And I do a lot of writing in my head, same and and so like, and then I'm like I'm gonna write this when I get home. And then I get home and I'm so tired, I need to nap, I need to eat lunch, I need to take the dog, and then when I sit down, I'm just like I'm just staring at the screen and I'm like you know what I could do? I could play some video games.
Speaker 1:That'll get the creative juices flowing.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh, I'll be inspired.
Speaker 2:So what gets you to return to your computer, like what drives you then to keep doing it? Because I am not a writer and I'm like blown away by anybody who completes a book, let alone many books in your case.
Speaker 3:Well, okay, who completes a book, let alone many books in your case? Uh, well, but okay. So I started using a program called and this is like might be something for dan, if you're a gamer, um, but it's basically for the words. It's like you have to beat monsters and hand in quests and the monsters are obviously like oh, this chimera is like 1,500 words in three hours. And so that for me is very rewarding, because I'm like quick rewards. I think I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant.
Speaker 3:And the idea stresses me out Really.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's so good Because like 1,500 words in three hours. But usually I will do quests that are like you have to write 200 words in two hours, which is good for me because I can do 200 words and I know I can do it. But then I do it in like five minutes and I'm like, oh, I can do another one, and then I take another one like 200 words for two hours and then I do it in another five minutes and then like what I use for the words, I write the most words and it's not. The thing is, it's not all about words, because some of the stuff I've written, I've had to sit and look at it and be like what the hell? I don't know what I've done it, yeah, but basically the only thing that really helps is putting my phone away in another room. I cannot have access to my phone because I will just sit and look at it, uh, and then just force myself to write. There's like you can wait for motivation, but you're not always going to have it, and if you only just wait for motivation, you're not going to be able to have a routine and you're not going to have the discipline to do the writing. And that's me, that's like 100% me. I'm saying this because I know what I'm like, as I have to put my phone away in another room where I can't even see it, because if I don't see it I don't know that it's there. And that's when I do my best writing. That's when I can get writing done.
Speaker 3:But I also do a lot of writing on the go, so I always have like a notebook with me.
Speaker 3:So when I go home from work, for example, uh, when I sit on the bus or when I take the train, and I will also write at like at work, not when I'm driving, but like, say, I have an idea. When I'm driving and I stop at a station to open the doors, I will just like quickly jot, because sometimes it's just like a, a sentence, like a dialogue. Maybe Farina says something and I'm like, oh, that's great. And I wonder I had that the other day where there was a conversation between Farina and Liv and they're just like the first line popped into my head. I wrote it down really quickly and then I played it out in my head and then as soon as I got to the end station, I just wrote it down really quickly. So I get a lot of chunks done that way as well, which works really well, because I want to type it up, because they say you shouldn't edit when you, when you write, they say if I already do it, yes, if I've already written it down once in my notebook.
Speaker 1:As I'm typing up, technically I'm not editing as I as I write, because I've already written it and so now I can edit it yeah, I, I'm at a point where I've written, but now I have to rewrite everything for anything to make sense and I have to stop.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 1:I think you're being attacked.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 2:I love your dog.
Speaker 3:He's so big, he's so big, he's so big and he's like ooh, ooh, ooh.
Speaker 2:He wants to be interviewed.
Speaker 1:He has a voice, yeah, and he wants it to get out Actually.
Speaker 2:I'd like to know what's your dog's name again.
Speaker 3:Burnham.
Speaker 2:Burnham, Burnham. Could you please scratch the floor if you're really proud of your dad for writing books?
Speaker 3:Now my wife is distracting him Difficult. He's actually named after the first featured black female captain in Star Trek. That's had her on show.
Speaker 2:That's really cool.
Speaker 3:You would love my brother-in-law, Simon, who named his dog janeway oh, he's obsessed with star trek that is our favorite uh series after mine, after discovery, but my wife loves voyager. She got me into it. I was like I'm not sure I'm into star trek, I've tried. She's like but have you watched voyager? I started watching. I was like I'm not sure I'm into Star Trek, I've tried, she's like. But have you watched Voyager? I don't know. I started watching. I was like, okay, I'm hooked.
Speaker 2:You can't help it. The other thing that I think is really amazing is you're a self-published author, right? Yes, you have created such an incredible following on Instagram. It's very clear that people adore you, and I'm curious what that's been like for you to put something like this out into the world and then watch it be so well received by so many people.
Speaker 3:It's very surreal, cause, like I don't know, I'm just, I'm just me. Like I feel like, uh, I'm just yeah, I'm just nobody. And so when people say like yeah, I'm just nobody. And so when people say like I love your book, I'm like it's, it's weird because I'm not good with compliments, so I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And and then they want to tell me what they love and I'm like, oh, um, I'm obviously super happy about it. And you know, it really makes my day when people say like I can really relate to your book.
Speaker 3:I've had like people say that you know, because of your book, I understand myself and I come out as trans, or you know, or like I realized you know that you know, trans people are just humans and and those are like such huge statements. You know, for someone who, like I just drive the train, like I just drive the train and and I just wrote some words and I wrote, I wrote what I loved and I hope that people would enjoy it. And but when people do, I get all flustered and like, oh god, I don't know, is it? Yes, obviously it's, it's yeah, it's yeah, it's very surreal and it's yeah, cause I'm just me, but you're just, it does.
Speaker 2:But you also wrote something that I really think people needed, um, for all kinds of reasons, like you just described, because people needed to see themselves, and also because they needed to see others as um, people that are lovable and unique and all of them different. So I was thinking this morning about your books and, um how, I don't know. I'm sure we've all been told this when we were kids. Like you, read because it opens up the world to you, but that's only if you read books that are from different points of view, and if you don't, we would have just been reading the brad pitt version of the zombie apocalypse forever which
Speaker 2:is no, like the world war z novelization. Favorite thing to insult on this podcast yeah, like even um. You know, we do things like we use the Bechdel test when we're talking about other movies, just to see if there are two women even who talk to each other about something other than a man even once, which is like the basement floor of feminism. But so many of them don't even pass that test. And so I just think like I'm really excited that the genre is moving in this way, and it's only moving in this way because people like you are doing it right, like you're saying hey, wait a second, I want to be represented in this world and I think I can tell a really badass story and I think that's very, very cool.
Speaker 1:So I know you're probably uncomfortable now because I'm complimenting you just a little bit you know something that I've, that I've I've talked about a little bit before um, which is like the the zombie apocalypse genre in general. If you went back to like before 2010 and told some studio executive that you wanted to make a zombie movie, they'd be like nobody wants to see that, you can't make money on a zombie movie. We'll never touch that with a million-foot pole making zombie movies, for them to realize, oh, people want to see zombie movies. And I feel like it's the same situation when you bring these, uh, these different points of view to the zombie apocalypse genre. You know people. You know, like you were told. You know people are like, they're like oh well, nobody's gonna buy your book if there isn't brad pitt as the lead. Well, that's because we've only had brad pitt as the lead for decades and decades.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, now I think now they're going to discover that they, they want to see people who aren't brad pitt be in the role of the of the zombie apocalypse survivor I think we're seeing that, you know, overall in all like kind of male dominated areas of entertainment, like both in like male dominated genres, but also like, if you look at like TV shows and movies, we're starting to see much more like diverse sort of cast. When we watch movies and stuff. Like I'm at the point right now where I'm like if I don't see a diverse cast, I'm not, I'm not gonna watch it, because I'm like we're in 2024. How can you not have a single non-white person in this like tv show or movie, like that's? That's mind boggling to me. Um, but yeah, yeah, I think we're getting. I feel like we're doing it because I've seen a lot more zombie books that I would want to read myself, but then I'm a terrible reader as well, so I'm not fast-fooding, same I'm very slow.
Speaker 3:Same. And then it's like I also don't. Like I don't love reading stuff when I'm right, because I don't want to get too influenced by other stuff. So if I do read, I will read something that's not in my genre. Um, because I also find like sometimes you get the best inspiration from stories that are from outside of your genre yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean especially like in your uk-based zombie apocalypse where, like it's not the, the American cowboy version gunslinger goes out and shoots all the zombies, like you've got to use melee weapons, like something, uh, fantasy where there's a lot of swords and sword play. Like that might give you a lot of ideas for how your characters are going to be um approaching zombies I think I think that's like the gamer in me really enjoyed.
Speaker 3:I think that was like why I put it also in. I put it in london because I was like nobody's gonna want to read about sweden. Who wants to read? By nobody.
Speaker 2:So I was like well, you say that, but I was gonna say me so much I can throw on these poor readers.
Speaker 3:Like trans character, like main cast is black and brown, and I'm also gonna put it in Sweden and we have a lesbian, and it was just like. I was like, okay, I should probably like yeah, and then there's no, you're probably toning it out, okay, I'll put it in london, uh, and that was fun because you do, you do it there. There isn't different dynamic without, uh, guns and and those sort of weapons, uh, and also the.
Speaker 2:The attitudes are completely different and I love that scene where roy is like we're gonna need guns and everyone's like, and I think jake says something like, yeah, we're all looking at him like he's acting more like the crown jewels because it's like just so out there I appreciate the moment where it's like I think it it's in the same part of the book where then Roy's like, oh so there's no weapons, and Jake's like, no, I didn't say there were no weapons, and then pulls out a nail gun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, who didn't want a nail gun? I could nail gun, that'd be so fun. And then, you know, I was like how the hell am I going to make them use this? Like there's no. I was like you know what they're just going to lose?
Speaker 1:their bags. I mean, that's another thing that I think is really brilliant. It's like, every time it seems like they've, you know, started to collect some things along the way, and like they've, you know, they've got food, they've got the things that they need. Suddenly something happens and they lose it all, and I think that's a brilliant way to tell the story, because you always want them to be those underdogs always scraping away, trying to, trying to get ahead just a little by little, yeah, yeah, I didn't make things easy for them.
Speaker 3:That's pushing me.
Speaker 3:Um, it's easy to make things easy for your characters, it wouldn't be the apocalypse yeah it, the apocalypse especially in the early days so I was gonna say something about the, the, the test that you was talking about. Oh, yeah, but the two women which is really funny, um, well, actually I think things like started retiring that one because it's not super, um, like, what do you call it like? Because they I think they was having discussions about like, uh, that it's not super. What's it called relative? Not relative, but basically it's not a fair sort of judgment. So they started talking about the, what's it called the nekomori? Yes, instead, where it's like is this character here just to be like the love interest? Uh, and can she exist, sort of um, without it? But so and I was thinking a lot about that when I wrote the book, obviously, uh, all right, it's based on the uh character from pacific rim right yeah, yes, uh.
Speaker 3:And so I was like I want this whole Farina and Liv thing to. I want them to have like a supportive female relationship thing. And so in the sequel I have this fun scene where they're watching Jake and Farina is like do you want to talk about it? And Liv literally says like nah, I feel like we'd fail a test or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tell us about. Tell us about the new book. So we have how we End, then we have how we Began, and I think you just finished writing how we Survive.
Speaker 3:Yes, so it's literally in very rough stages, and so it's like the first draft, so like what I'm doing now I've just finished editing it, I'm sending it off to my dev editor, who's gonna give me some really big notes on what to change.
Speaker 3:Um, but yeah, there's this. The second book is gonna dive a lot more into noah's background. Noah's gonna get a lot of spotlight, um, and I think we're also getting a much deeper looking to royce background as well. Um then, because he was kind of the quiet man in the in the first book. He's still quiet, but we're getting to see more of him and more to make dinner.
Speaker 1:He's an angela.
Speaker 3:yeah, basically, but. But we're definitely going to see more of that sort of get a little bit more snippets from who they were, and then, yeah, it's obviously chaos and mayhem, as always, because our group is the way they are. They can't really do anything easy, can they no?
Speaker 2:But they take care of each other and that's what's lovely. I know you said it's early days yet, but do you have a sense of a timeline when folks can start to expect it?
Speaker 3:I'm hoping for. I mean, this is early for me. I'm going to like March around March that's not that far away. That's exciting, yeah so then I have time to send it to my dev editor, get it back, make changes, send it to my beta readers, get it back, make changes and then send it to my beta readers, get it back, make changes and then send it out to arc readers and such did you find it easier to to write the, the sequel, or did you just have like momentum at this point?
Speaker 3:right now I just haven't. I think I get to a point in in each book where I'm like I can feel that this is the end. I can feel like I'm getting very close and that kind of pushes me on, even when I'm like I think it's very, it gets very exciting when you hit that, hit that point where you're like, okay, this is done like just the first, just the first draft. It's just like having the story written down is really nice, uh, but then obviously there's so much stuff to do. Um, but yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'm like it's nice to be able to send it away and just take a breather from it. The writing, yeah. So while that is out, I'm gonna start working on the cover, uh, and then just kind of more marketing to set up for a pre-order helping.
Speaker 2:I'll dare to do that well, we will be happily sharing those things because we'll be in the list of people pre-ordering it, um, for when it comes out, and absolutely um, I also and the audio. We really appreciate the audiobooks too. Thank you so much. I imagine that's an additional investment of time and money. So for people like me who read slow and really needed to be in my ears, thank you how did you like the audiobook?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was great, it was great having the two narrators is awesome.
Speaker 2:Um, the voices that they do. I was just trying to. It's the woman who does live, just, I wish I have a terrible memory too.
Speaker 1:You should probably just cut this part out because I can't remember who it was, but she just did a voice of somebody else.
Speaker 2:That was very funny and I now I can't remember who it was- I can't remember. Yeah, nobody knows who I'm talking about. But I remember. I don't remember either.
Speaker 1:Also what I loved about having two, two narrators and that was that. Um, uh, lives Liv's narrator tended to portray Jake as kind of like you know, he was kind of like groany and moany and kind of whiny sometimes, whereas Jake is like I'm personable and I have a great voice. It kind of is like how we see ourselves, sometimes Like I'm really cool and then in somebody else's eyes it's like I'm just bored all the time.
Speaker 3:I think what I love about that that is different is like, like you say, it's like in real life, like how we hear ourselves versus how other people perceive us, and like how we may actually sound in the moment.
Speaker 2:I've just accepted. I sound like an idiot, 80% of the time at least.
Speaker 1:I think, that's most of us, though. How important to you was it that you had an audio book and like was? Was that like right out of the gate? You're like I have to have an audio book right away.
Speaker 3:Uh, I always wanted an audio book. Cause like, my wife has really severe dyslexia, so she can read obviously Not obviously, but she can read. But when she reads it's like she reads the words but she doesn't get the because she's so focused on reading the words she doesn't get the whole scene, I think.
Speaker 3:I'm dyslexic yeah, I've been saying that for a while. She's always loved audiobooks. Dyslexic yeah, I've been, so she's. She's always loved audiobooks. Like, I have a audible subscription and she, like, devours audiobooks. It's the way she reads books and so I always knew that I wanted an audiobook, just because, like, for people like my wife or like blind people or people who, like, maybe can't hold the book or can't hold like an e-reader, there's always like or they want to read it while they're driving a dump truck.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but like me, it's like yeah, I want to read on my way to work, or you know, but I walk home from work. Yeah, there's so many reasons that people want an audiobook, but it's obviously. I had to wait a bit for it because it's expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's quite an investment, like for indie. I think more indie authors I've seen lately are doing it and I just appreciate that investment. So thank you as one of the people who really needs it. Um, we do, we do and I mean me. I read aloud to dan, like as a bedtime story, some books, if they're not audio books, and that's a fun way to do it. But I do find myself being like I have no idea what I just said, because it's like me, trying to make like sometimes.
Speaker 3:I'll try to make an american accent and and I just sound like a drunk please give it a try.
Speaker 1:You know actually a long time ago when I was, when I was a streamer, I had an australian friend and I tried to coach him into um, how to do an effective American accent. Um, and it went horribly. But do you want? Do you want to try?
Speaker 3:uh, what should I say?
Speaker 1:Well, here's the thing is that you have like. An effective American accent starts from like this the the most American statement that you can make. What's that, dan? Which is um, this is this isn't how I ordered my cheeseburger this isn't how I ordered my cheeseburger that's pretty good.
Speaker 3:That sounded pretty good, god that was terrible, like sometimes when I'll and sometimes I'll read the the scenes that I write for my wife If I'm like, hey, does this sound right? So I think I tried to do Roy's or Sheila's accent my wife just looked at me like are you having a stroke? And I was like shut up. So now, whenever I read Sarah's's books for her because they usually come out in, you know, print books first if I, if I like, read bits from it and I'm like you're just gonna have to put out with british versions of these characters well, now you've got a voice.
Speaker 1:Um uh, exercise to do before you do an american voice what's the what's the statement again, uh, this isn't how I ordered my cheeseburger this isn't how I ordered my cheeseburger I gotta say I think your first time was better.
Speaker 3:I think because I wasn't yeah, I think I wasn't thinking too much about it, but I actually had to do, uh, voice exercises when I when I first went on testosterone, because when my voice dropped I because when we speak, like, obviously we speak differently depending on who we speak with, like, and as, as a woman, you tend to speak with your voice a lot higher, so you usually speak up here because you're like happy and la, la, la, and so that was really difficult for me to, because my voice has dropped so low that, because I was used to speaking up there, it was just really straining for my voice. So I had to do a lot of kind of voice exercises and basically what it translates to the lines I had to say was like the man is mumbling the man is mumbling yeah, this was a lot of sort of I think that's.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's a good one too. I will say I've even noticed that my I like noticed the times when I put on a little bit of high-pitched girly voice. It's interesting how that is like a cultural thing, um yeah, same thing when you're talking to dogs.
Speaker 3:Well, that's, that's yes but again, it like shows how different you speak and what different voices you speak, depending on who you actually speak to, um and like in what situations. It was really interesting once I noticed that because I thought, oh my, my voice is going to drop and everything's going to be fine.
Speaker 1:But then now it was just yeah, that's something that I've, I've never, I've never considered is that you have to relearn how to speak? I? I recently realized that I, I've, I think that I have been using a higher voice than than I've, than my voice is normally designed for, just because I think I'm trying to please people. And now I'm much less concerned about pleasing people and I'm noticing that my voice is changing because of that.
Speaker 2:It's amazing all the ways that we are enculturated that's a really big anthropology word, sorry the ways that we learn, um, how to be a certain way and then perform it, and then at some point, if we're lucky enough, I think we can see the performance and decide if we want to keep doing it. I think it's okay if you want to keep doing it, but so much of it is yeah, just sort of. Uh, what does rupaul say uh?
Speaker 1:we're born naked and the rest is drag.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there you go. It's so interesting when you start noticing those patterns and things that you do, it's just like why am I doing this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, decades of training. In my case, my whole life, my whole life.
Speaker 1:Why am I doing?
Speaker 2:this? Yeah, very much. So I feel like we could talk all day, and you've already given us an extra half hour of your time. So I just wanted to name that and say thank you, and I have just two more questions for you, if that's okay. Yes, absolutely in the UK and in in the book, there's clear cultural differences between the United States and the United Kingdom and I want to know like what would be different about your story if it had happened in Sweden oh, so many things.
Speaker 3:Okay, for first of all, like, all the names would be different, all the street names would be different because we have different letters. But I also think I don't know whether the food would be different we'd have better food really I've not had Swedish food that's like some shame towards the UK, I feel. I only said it because my wife went to the loo so she couldn't hear me. I feel like they'd have the upper hand because they'd have all the canned beans.
Speaker 1:That's true, we've heard a lot about beans lately.
Speaker 2:I feel like they'd have the upper hand, because they'd have all the canned beans.
Speaker 1:That's true. We've heard a lot about beans lately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jack Callahan's a British author who was on Zombieween and his choice for every answer to a question was beans, basically.
Speaker 3:Okay, I did not really fault him for that, because beans on anything is amazing, true.
Speaker 2:As a non-Brit.
Speaker 3:I see people going oh you can't, even you can't say anything because you got beans on toast and I was like with cheese and a little brown sauce and we're good to go would there be any other like cultural differences in the way that uh swedish folks would approach an issue versus like the UK or the US?
Speaker 3:That's a difficult question, Cause I think I think, yes, I think Swedes would be way more hesitant to kind of open up to a new group or to new people, even in a situation like this. I think because, like so here, like we don't really talk to strangers or acknowledge that they exist, Like when we had the pandemic, the joke was that you know that we had to keep like a two meter distance at all times, and the joke was, like the Swedish people were like we were born for this, we just do that on a regular basis. Yes, I do think that Swedes would be a lot less prone to band up with strangers, Because we're not really like my wife, when she's like she makes friends, she makes friends with my neighbors. I, I lived here for like I don't know 10 years okay, eight years before she moved in.
Speaker 1:I didn't know my neighbors, and now I know my neighbors we also have a joke like that in in the uk, where it's like let's borrow your neighbor's bikes and it's like that was fine.
Speaker 3:You don't know the neighbors yeah, I think that's very, um, I think that's very laundry, uh, in in the sense that you know, because it's a big city yeah, you don't really talk to your neighbors. But whereas, like my wife, when we went to visit her, she would like say hello to people in the store. I was like, do you know them? She said no, that's fucking weird that's like vermont vermont.
Speaker 2:We have to wave to each other when we drive by, even if we don't know each other like you, you have to do it I was weird.
Speaker 3:I'm like I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything. So I think, yeah, I think that's like the biggest cultural sort of uh differences that would happen in that. Oh, and I and I think also like a lot of Brits would be like protect the king, when Swedes would be like fuck the king, I'm team.
Speaker 2:Fuck the king, save ourselves.
Speaker 1:You know all the ones who want to protect the king. They know where to go, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, I think that's like the main the big sort of differences, but there's, yeah, there's. So yeah, I think that's like the main the big sort of differences, but there's, yeah. So I do poke fun a lot of it in books or in the book. I poke fun at both, like English culture and Swedish cultures. I think I even call Swedes like cold-hearted wankers or something like that. I do poke fun at myself as well.
Speaker 2:I a swedish zombie book. I'm just saying um I don't know, if I'm your only audience member, but I I would really enjoy that because I think it's fun to watch um and read zombie stories that are around different parts of the world, because we would handle things differently maybe, uh, maybe noah can daryl Dixon his way across the channel you're actually not the first person to say that.
Speaker 3:I was shocked, because I was convinced, because I saw this really big indie author say like, oh yeah, if I see a foreign name, I'll just put the phone, put the book down, like I won't read it if that's like foreign names or like names I can't pronounce. So I was like and that's like foreign names or like names I can't pronounce. So I was like and that's kind of solidified my whole. Yeah, I'm not going to put it in Sweden.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, and that's when I named her.
Speaker 3:Farina, yeah, I think the difference also would be like because I obviously said it in Stockholm, because I think the difference is that Stockholm is made up by islands and so that will make it really interesting to like how do you navigate when they because they're going to blow up all the bridges? We just know that. So how would you navigate? That like, would you would like there be little turfs created like this is you know, know, our island?
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably, Obviously it could be really interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that could be fun.
Speaker 1:I feel like with you here Elm well, I mean really with anybody here but I feel like you're sparking a lot of interesting topics, definitely.
Speaker 3:That.
Speaker 1:I feel like we could just talk for hours and hours about yeah, sorry, leah, what was the second question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, can we be friends, but that's not actually the question.
Speaker 3:Yes, I thought we already was, yay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can we be best friends.
Speaker 2:Would you like to be a Zom-mesty with us? Yes, for sure. Do you want to come over zombie?
Speaker 3:I'm bestie with us? Yes, for sure. Do you want to come over to our garage and break boards in half. I need people who know how to handle guns.
Speaker 2:That's Dan, not me.
Speaker 3:Well then we have one person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can make apple pie.
Speaker 3:That's my Okay. That's good, I can make like I'm the Noah in this scenario. I will make cool weapons Perfect.
Speaker 2:I look forward to seeing your cricket.
Speaker 3:She'll be like the hard-ass kind of guard we need that.
Speaker 2:We need that, and then we have to have the dog crew with their own special purpose.
Speaker 3:Yes, burnham can be emergency food. He only needs three legs. It's one of the jokes we have because he's like hi, we call him big booty burnham because booty is so big and so his one leg is humongous and so sometimes we joke about he only needs two legs.
Speaker 2:Obviously we never eat a dog, just like disclaimer yeah, we're gonna clip just that one part where you talk about eating a dog and like that's the feature and everybody, it's gonna be our video. No, we wouldn't do that. But my actual last question is where can people find you so they can get your book and just follow your work in general?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm on Instagram as author. Underscore LM Juniper. Or, yeah, I'm on LMJunipercom. I'm on Amazon and all the other big platforms. Yeah, that's where you can find me.
Speaker 1:I usually just hang out on Instagram, yeah same.
Speaker 3:That's where you can find me. I usually just hang out on Instagram, yeah.
Speaker 1:Same.
Speaker 2:That's the fun place to be, and also you have a newsletter people can sign up for. So I highly recommend you do that too, because we don't have control of these platforms, so I think that's great that you have that. That's true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, have you signed up?
Speaker 2:for it. I have.
Speaker 1:Oh really, oh no, I think I have too. Oh really, you have too, oh, really yeah, if I'm not mistaken, I think I have I'm trying to.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna try to get better at it well, it's there for when you need it. That's what matters, yeah yeah, for when I get hacked again.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh yeah, that was brutal. I'm so sorry you went through that that was the stress I didn't need no, nobody needs. But I just want to say again this was so much fun. We went on so many different random tangents. You spent an extra hour with us. Thank you so much for the time. This was long awaited and I can't wait for everybody else to hear it next week it's going to be out next Sunday, which for every listening is now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now is Sunday.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, if you can join us, we're going to say goodbye to the audience. Say have a good Bye everybody, bye, bye. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was a great interview, leah, who's in the middle of a yawn right now.
Speaker 2:I was looking at my phone. I was looking at a post about the history of the zombie, so that was distracting.
Speaker 1:I didn't know we were recording hi everybody. Yeah, that was. That was an amazing interview. I really, I really like elm, we talked for like two hours, two and a half hours and 15 minutes actually well, on the interview part was the interview two hours and 15 minutes you're gonna have to edit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, first of all, elm, I'm assuming assuming your list, assuming I'm assuming you're listening. Thanks, uh, I did not feel like that amount of time. I think that's the coolest part of this podcast is meeting people like Elm Juniper and letting the time just disappear because you're having such an interesting conversation. And really fun to talk to somebody from Sweden.
Speaker 1:Gotta say I really enjoyed talking to Elm. I think that we could have just kept talking forever.
Speaker 2:I agree, and they said that they would be our Zom bestie, so I'm very pleased, thanks.
Speaker 1:I think that we could have just kept talking forever. I agree, and they said that they would be our ZomBestie, so I'm very pleased. Thanks everybody for joining us today. We love having you guys in our undead community. We love meeting new people, which is something I don't normally say because I usually don't enjoy meeting new people, but when it's part of our undead community, and especially writers, uh, it fills my imagination with all types of new things and I love it. Um, and we, we hope you enjoyed the episode. Let us know. Let us know if you liked it most importantly, get the book.
Speaker 1:I'm, as I said halfway through it, really loving it yeah, um big shout out elm elm juniper um for dropping by talking about his book how we end.
Speaker 2:And then there's how we began, and then, coming up, there's how we survive yeah, how we began as a novella.
Speaker 2:We didn't even talk about that, yeah we were too busy talking about everything else we could have gone for another hour we asked like a third of the questions we could have asked, because they're just like so much to discuss, uh, with a great author like that, it really is the coolest part of our I was about to say part of my job. I think I'm starting to mix my actual job with this job and I'm starting to think that this is my job and I kind of wish it was. Yeah, this is way more fun. Someone give us money. Someone don't tell my boss I just said that who does know the name of this podcast. So I do love my job also.
Speaker 1:We need a, we need an angel investor to just give us money, to just do this all the time. Yeah, we'll put out three episodes.
Speaker 2:Are there any billionaires listening to us? I know we said we wanted to eat you.
Speaker 1:But we will spare you if you give us money. But, yeah, make sure you check out elm juniper on instagram um. Author. Underscore elm juniper. Give them a follow, check out their book.
Speaker 2:And uh, we have all the links in the description so you can you can look down there, find yourself a link so next month, dan, we are diving in to Polymorphous Lee's the Zombie Re-erection Only Sex Can Save Us, which is now available on paperback, which I'm going to be ordering. You can also get it on Kindle and Kindle Unlimited. It's $0 on Kindle Unlimited. So that is going to be fun, hoping that we can figure out time zones with Polymorphous Lee to talk to her, but if not, we will just have a very salacious conversation that some of you may want to skip. Yeah, some of you may really enjoy. I know we will enjoy it. So that's, that's what's coming up next.
Speaker 1:Trigger warning spicy, yes, nothing but spice.
Speaker 2:So much spice I'm gonna give it, uh, five cucumbers yeah, and based on the fact that there's some satire around a certain character named Ronald Hump that rhymes with somebody else who may or may not become the president, this conversation could be super fun for everybody to laugh at, or we could be using it to laugh because we're also crying.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, by the time this episode comes out, we know whether or not that is our future.
Speaker 2:Yes, we should. We will definitely know, because we won't be recording that till the end of November.
Speaker 1:I've got my fingers crossed that we know by Sunday who the next president will be.
Speaker 2:And then the other heads up. I want to give you, is that January? Yeah, no, don't even get any started on the possibility that we don't know. Dan, that's so stressful.
Speaker 1:This will not age well. As people hear me laughing about it, They'll be like how could you laugh after?
Speaker 2:what happened on Tuesday Also coming up sneak preview In January we're going to have an episode with Z Martin Brown, the author of the Non-Essentials the Non-Essentials, yeah, the Non-Essentials who was one of the folks who gave us an elevator pitch. Really excited to talk to him. Oh, another Zombesty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so keep an eye out for that If you want to pick up a copy of that and read it so that you know what we're talking about in that episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, first get your zombie erotica Mm-hmm, and then get your the Non-Essentials.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we're not going to tell you what order to read it in.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, but first, if you haven't read how we End, start there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Dan and I are at a point of loopiness that this is probably unintelligible.
Speaker 1:It is entirely unintelligible, but you know what you can do. If you think that this is unintelligible is you can join our zombie horde. We'd love to connect with you. Here's how you can stay in touch and support Zombie Book Club. If you want to support us, you can give us a rating and a review, if you can, on your podcast platform of choice. It really helps us reach new listeners and your support would mean the world to us. If you or someone you know likes the zombie apocalypse, maybe send them this episode and help us spread it like a virus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or a parasite.
Speaker 1:Or a fungi Give them a fungus.
Speaker 2:Rub your toe fungus on them.
Speaker 1:As always, we've got a link tree in the description with all of our social media links and all of our podcast platforms. But you'll mostly find us on Instagram at zombiebookclubpodcast, but you can also join podcast platforms, um. But you'll mostly find us on instagram at uh zombie book club podcast. But you could also join the brain mantra zombie collective on discord.
Speaker 2:Uh, to chat with other undead lovers and zombesties and this is my open invitation if you join that discord before november 23rd, at 3 pm on november 23rd, we we are watching. Thank you, very important Eastern time November 23rd. Eastern time 3 o'clock, we are watching PM.
Speaker 2:Yes, that this will also be in the show notes. We are watching Zombeavers with some of our Zombesties to celebrate Dan being done for the work season. It's going to be really ridiculous and I'm very excited about it. So if you want to come hang with us, that's the way to do it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be high.
Speaker 2:Yes, I didn't know you were going to say that on air, but yes, I thought that was the plan.
Speaker 1:It is. That's what people are showing up for. The plan is to watch.
Speaker 2:Dan watch Zombievers high and live react in the chat. Although you won't be seeing his face.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just my words, just the words of a hi man. Yeah, if you want to send us a message, you can leave us a voicemail up to three minutes at 614-699-0006. We'd love to hear your thoughts, your questions. You can suggest future episodes if you have good ideas and if you're a writer, you can send us an elevator pitch, um, for your book and we'll play that in one of our episodes, possibly. Uh. And also you can send us an email at uh zombie book club podcast at gmailcom an extra fun, we have a secret website we do, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know if we should advertise it. It it's in the description.
Speaker 2:It's perpetually under construction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's there. One day it'll possibly be something. But if you want to see something where there's a reason to go there, we have a merchandise store. We have a merchandise store and we have a couple of shirts in there. I'm sorry, I can't stop sneezing and uh, probably we're gonna have more soon to come, when I have more time to make designs, but could you imagine really cool zombie shirts?
Speaker 2:and zombie stickers of all of my awesome cartoons. Yeah, and we're also gonna sell the art of sylvester Barzee, the zombie ween king.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you want Sylvester Barzee on your wall, you could buy that, yeah, as the king with a flamethrower on top of a bunch of dead zombies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can have it in your house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could enjoy that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then actually, you know what? That is the one thing to buy, because we've decided, since Simon is Dan's brother and he lives here, that any of the proceeds from that particular poster will go towards zombie commune related requirements for our house.
Speaker 1:What is a zombie? Commune related requirement.
Speaker 2:We would decide together how we want to spend it.
Speaker 1:Okay, Are we going to spend it on gates for the dog yard? Yeah things like that Okay. Things like that yeah.
Speaker 2:Or like getting some pavers so that there's not a mud puddle we have to walk through every spring.
Speaker 1:What about, like, the costs that we incur by doing this podcast? Does it go to that, or is that not? Well, all the t-shirts and stuff.
Speaker 2:I don't know. We'll have to ask Simon. I mean, he drew it. So that's the one that we're trying to like collectively.
Speaker 1:We, simon, I mean, he drew it, so that's the one that we're trying to like collectively. We're trying to live into our values here at the zombie communists share resources, yeah, well, uh, as you can see, the the rules are very convoluted about how the proceeds can be spent. So, um, if you want to know more about how that will, um, devolve into a lot of, uh, angry yelling, then buy a shirt and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what, if you buy one of the posters, we will dedicate an episode to us debating with Simon how we're going to use the money on the one poster you buy For the $2 revenue it generates.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening everyone. We'll see you in the next episode. The end is nigh.
Speaker 2:Bye-bye, bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye, bye-bye, bye.
